(3-3-16) - Evening - Daniel 8 11 (part 2) - (QP7jXwFpNQY)

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Publish Date: 9/1/2016
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Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (3-3-16) - Evening - Daniel 8_11 (part 2)-QP7jXwFpNQY
YouTube ID: QP7jXwFpNQY

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around fashion their cocoons wings and negative for this thing's even though a lot of things we sit down when he sees three four man standing we look at it daniel chapter 8 verse 11 continuing with our study of that verse unlike some of the other verses that we've been looking at and I've suggested a systematic way to go through this verse there are so many twists and turns in this verse that having gone through this verse a number of times with people within my own studies I've given us you know six guidelines in us in a sequence that I'm not saying you have to do but it's I think it's quite profitable and it takes you systematically through that verse helping to explain why we say what we're saying with respect to what the daily is in this passage so I gave you six guidelines if you like rules however you want to view them gender the word by should be the word from the word sacrifice have a look at the grammar of this verse this sentence the word take away and the word sanctuary so we've looked at the grammar hopefully quite extensively so if I have to ask you when we talk about not grandma gender sorry when we talk about gender number one what are we talking about when we say gender male or female but spitting specifically what what is male and what is female how do we approach this okay so if the female is little horn what's the mail then then what's the little horn so they leave a message ping the hardest blow us both yeah so verse which first sister Allison when we talked about a little horn when just just the word little horn verse 9 so in verse 9 it mentions the little horn and the little horn is feminine and then there's something about Hebrew that's different than English houses imperialism it's the verb usage that's the bit that you need to trace through these verses that's what we're tracking in in these verses and in verse 9 you have a massage this ready but I just studies adding the same in verse 9 it says and out of one of them came forth little horn so that phrase came forth is what you're going to track in verse 9 has been the masculine so it goes from vs 9 to 10 11 and 12 and you're tracking the verb with this masculine or feminine and in verse 10 it's feminine verse 11 it's masculine and in verse 12 it's feminine again now even though the little horn is feminine the action is masculine so we got this masculine feminine masculine feminine and we've said that in the English you could identify it in a crude fashion because it says it and he alternating in these verses you need to keep an eye on verse 12 what's in verse 12 do you need to keep an eye on no it says an host was given him so that causes it their causes a problem but you see it's italicized so we do our argument is that the word he him shouldn't be there so a host was given then it carries on here so the first all is gender so that you know this is the masculine face this is pagan Rome brother tabo just told us pagan Rome because it's masculine so whoever's doing whatever they're doing its pagan Rome is doing that work so that's one thing that we need to that we're in disagreement with most people it's not the papacy that's been dealt with in verse 11 it's pagan Rome then we looked at the word by most people in their marginal readings of their Bible if you've got marginal readings in your Bible it will tell you it should be translated from it tells you straight there without going into a concordance but your go into concordance you'll see that that word should really be more accurately translated as being from if you see how it's used throughout most of the Bible is it is the word from and let me just check something if I'll get in the name of it right the word is in heber I think it's min yeah the word is min and we're going to see how that word min is used extensively in the Book of Leviticus and we're going to see why that hasn't has an implication into what we're studying the word sacrifice we've looked at the word sacrifice early writing 74 point to which is the last of the passages that deal with this in early earn Ellen White's writings there's two statements earlier than that one is experienced in views 1851 and one he's a review and herald article oh there was one thing I wanted to mention when I said that it was in my notes I hadn't given the name of the paper but I'd said it was november the first 1859 i forgot to write what it was and I put our Rach review in Herald and someone said they couldn't find review and Herald but I did look again in the coding is root it is the present truth but the coding is reviewing Harold it's a review and herald article so I just wanted to clarify that cuz i'm not sure why people so they couldn't find it okay so hope that kids like that that discrepancy so Ellen White clearly tells you that the it should the word sacrifice was supplied by man's wisdom this is in agreement with William Miller's understanding and what do I mean by that when I say it's an agreement with William Miller's understand because he doesn't tell wait till can't think about sacrifice or anything when he's standing with the daily why am I saying San agreement was William Miller say well call it a long white says the word sacrifice was supplied by man's wisdom it shouldn't be there and within me lovie's an agreement with that concept but he doesn't use that any of that kind of phraseology he uses the different condoms use different words but he's approach is different what does he say and we call it Miller's view on them in class we're not covered his Newland plus no he's view on the word sacrifice alone on me no no no he doesn't mention the word sacrifice as I mean second Thessalonians yeah we know the 2nd Thessalonians what I'm talking about this subtle word alone and what no doubt I'm saying he's going to come to the same conclusion but he approaches it in a different way and he and he picks up a certain phrase when he says that and we have covered it in class taken away well taken out of the way okay so I'm going to read what he says on another occasion he stated his mode of settling the meaning of the text before us yes sorry the first mention it's the first mention swimmer in fact that was your question yeah but we didn't say as a nanny you said because that was the arguable but someone was bringing up with remember and he says I read on I read the bra be the potty on another occasion he says with his mode of settling the meaning of the text before us the meaning of the daily I read said he and could find no other case in which it was found but in Daniel so that's how he phrases his issue and so the where we went to first usage I think we went into the book of was it numbers or something or even exodus the word day that's right bring but the word to me isn't isn't maybe continual I think it may have been they take you back to Exodus but we said he was consistent with his own he doesn't use the I don't think even has the rule of first mention it's something that we've understood but it follows the same principle because he says I could find that no other case in which it was used so its first mention here and what's he picking up without realizing it but I can't so he doesn't realize it he notices something different that the word here is used as a noun he doesn't mention that its uses now Ellen White dozen she says strip the word sacrifice if you do that you get a noun if it says first usage you get the same conclusion that you must be talking about the daily is different in the Book of Daniel compared to all the other 99 times and it's there again users are noun then he goes to second Thessalonians and day he develops his argument so that's the word sacrifice so we've done that and now we're looking at grammar so we didn't finish this issue of gamma so let's have a discussion about grammar I've given you two rules and I'm sure you've had so much time that you've looked at and seeing if these rules are propping official names of grammar Oh William O it's the second Advent movement which is i'll give you the coding 1843 a ph apollo sale because he's a barber feared that he's writing and TS am the second element movement page 66 so the two rules that we're looking at as I say this is my version of it grammatical nearness and subject noun association since the Tiffany do you remember what those two rules are gonna are referring to by Jonathan remember what we what we said these pillows if you need yeah the one was drawn and check do something and and he says something and then this grammatical nearness refers the heat to the to Jack because it's closer good so it's going to connect these through this way because Jack and here the closest things together so if you've got a sentence it doesn't make sense that's a rule that you use and then this one just one day he said John hit Jake and you cried and then the here refers to the subject which in this case would be Jon and in this sentence this is the subject I did for all the words that you said this is the object if you need to understand what suddenly feeling object is in a sentence subject is is is what they said is about the thing or the person and he does something to somebody so mark drove a car he does something to a car so you could get at many many variations but you need to know who the subject is and who the object is so they're the two kind of rules that we that we want to look at so the sentence says yay he magnified himself so we've got he he does something even to the Prince of the host and then it says and from him so here's the him and here's two people okay so who's the he in this sentence you have to go back to another sentence and back to another one take a rope so i'm just going to write the little horn and what and this is masculine so this is pagan Rome so this is the subject of this sentence so he is going to do something to him and from him something's going to be taken away so if we use this rule here rule number one who's the him yes so we should wish you who is the prints we haven't tackled it but we're not really going to because you can show quite easy that this is Jesus and this consensus on that so / so the little horn is going to do something to Jesus and then it says I'm from him soon so this is if you use this tool here if we use this room here are you asking 50 first trip another I'm asking who is the him that's the he little more no less you've sent grammar rules and rules of grammar if you use excuse to first rules goodness so it is going to be Jesus so Bravo codices disagreeing with that and my question to you why are you saying to him is playing in Rome when you read that verse that sentence how do you get that because him is the subject but this is a rule of grammar to me really I can't get back the other if we detect Adventism 20 million people believe that rule if you're going to Christianity it runs into the Libyans how can it be okay you explain to me how hard I him can be Jesus because that don't make sense to me don't try any point your understanding of the sentence because you got your bridge if you just read the sentence okay for just if you just read the sender's it would be Jesus it would be this Prince why because because Jesus is introduced and then he saying and by him the person that's introduced yeah the very next person you got the prints and then he says it's going to say something about him straight away yeah yeah okay ah sida so that's wrong number one yeah so this is rule number one but if we use all number two then it would be taking Rome or using the second rule okay so you want to use the second rule so that you want to use the second rule and 17 million people want to use this rule so the question is how do we know which rule is correct so so I'm edition defeat the real rules so but you mean I just for understanding 70 million people want to be there the cheese's because because they want to be the day family ministry so we're going to say this the little horn the stomach against Jesus and from Jesus the daily sacrifice is taken away so you know we could quickly change some things in here and we could change this to ministration he's taken away so he's going to come and put he's going to come and exalt himself before Jesus and from Jesus his daily ministry is going to be stripped from him and given over to because he's going to be the papacy obviously so this is how they this is this is the logic that they want to use okay so what's that hey the grown and what's our argument what's our defense against this I'm saying you can't just cherry-pick one little sentence out of the whole verse never mind the whole chapter so not sure if it tell me how you want to read the verse I'm just saying dizzy from soon I could I could but I could put a sentence together which kind of followed along this line but it was in neutrals that playing and running and dogs and then you'll be then you wouldn't know who that who is doing what okay I accept that yeah I I accept the rule you saying but if we I'd rather used the word theory because then we'll explore where we're going to end up or when we say rule it sounds a bit you mean when I say this is a rule of grammar yeah it's a rule of Grandma where it takes you is a problem i agree with that but these are gravimeter grammatical rules a rule it's over of English is you've got have a subject or it's not a sentence did this is just route room smoking rule of fun in a rule of Crennel now daddy's a new rules but what is the problem I mean for you know we didn't make any conclusions yet ya know ya what I'm saying even when dealing with the grammar surely the Cutlass disregard the context in which we're looking at what the subject and the object does but if you have just one verse you have no context would you stand in 21 verse but i've been going to the other verses if would you stay in the one verse so i don't mind explore x a bit what is that what how do you wanna read this goes i just want to read the whole verse and see where we end up and then that will determine room light on or rule number two to be employed the first bit happier you were how much you want to split this first into how many segments I've gotta split into three okay I've got you magnify Brazil he magnified himself to the Prince of the host that's one segment here that's a little horn we've covered that and then it says and from him the daily was taken away so I've got the second bit here okay and because I was going to put it I'll put it underneath here the third bit it says and the place to be sanctuary was cast down so we've got the place of the sanctuary is cast down so if we use real number one we're saying and from Christ the daily whatever it is his daily administration is dead administration was taken away so crisis taken away his own daily no no from from him he's taking it away he's taken his ministry from him and a place of what Christ you've got crisis being the hymnal number one yeah I'll be and him Christ the him is Christ rule number one yes and from Christ yeah Oh stay his administration is taking part I'm gonna take something from you okay that's not worthy good okay it's not what i did i'm going to do and then i'm going to do something that's even worse and then it says and a place of he sanctuary greatest cry century is cast down i let a bit in it comes down to earth exactly the place of crisis sanctuaries in heaven i scoff down to earth so heaven is cast out symbolically yeah just no it's not that's how people read this verse 17 million yeah it's a lot of free place it's notice 8 doesn't make sense you got to be able to you can't you can't I'm not saying you're doing to be quite insult someone's intelligence a just just doesn't make sense you know you gotta be able to see where they're coming from and to work their work them through this argument okay I think this is there a lot if you use their life yeah it's thank you here beside their their points you know like you're saying they're using legitimate grammatical rules and things that we all agree to to come to this conclusion it's obviously not so obviously skewed at some level um when you for me personally when you see that it's broken up into three segments and if you were to go line upon line with these segments you would understand that these hymns are he's at least depending on how you're breaking it up ki Magnum he magnified himself and by him and his sanctuary are all the same person that's being discussed if you were done line upon line look at that if you were to write those three segments like you're mentioning in my mind that's a way to to understand it but that's what we just ate if welcome I don't know did you just do that if we usually school here okay use my full gear we've got cuz I could just get rid of this and put the little horde the little horn magnum cell does something to eat to Jesus and from him so energy lock into who dis him ease and you say it's Jesus the second they Hayes has to follow on with the him the human that he's have to be the same person and so you so then you funnel into making it all Jesus's thing what I'm saying is if you were to break it up and you were right on the board yeah he magnified himself even to the Prince of hose I thought that me yeah and then under that you're right and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away another line and then under that you right and the place of his sanctuary was cast down I see what you're putting the hymns and he's underneath each other yeah yes you're going to the subject they're all the same subject is what I'm trying to say not according to rule number one rule number one you know you got to figure out is it rule number one rule number two and I'm trying to give a reasonable explanation in my mind about why rule number two makes more sense to me 17 billion don't think so before it used to be la ronde you can't you can see you to decay you can edit e so Joe what we want to do is we want to look at let's look at the Hebrew of this verse so if you go into the Hebrew the way to do this is if you have to know what programs you have if you have a sword so an e sword you've got KJV you've got que je v plus everybody here uses ezel mostly and then you've got and the plus is strong with songs number on it you've got another one called hot plus and this is Hebrew Old Testament it's on the laptop on the pc version for sure if on the on the iphone you could you go on iphone you on the iphone version i think you might be downloadable on that yeah h.o.t plus if you've got android phone I think these I think and you if you use my sword i think it's a chai SB i think it is and i can't remove all that stands for but this is the one that i'm using at the moment on on the computer that's what most people have so it's free download even if you don't have it you can go on to there's a website that's got lots and lots of Bible programs are things that for ISA you can download them it might be but you need to have one with a plus on it with strong yeah it should be the same thing then so it'll be interesting if I go to it night here if you're you're downloading it now okay so if it should that should be quite quick what I want to show you is that in the Hebrew the wording of the sentence is different it's a different word that the way the sentence is structured is different do you remember when we looked at it the other day this was Daniel 11 verse 16 remember our fault i fell into a trap in verse 16 do you remember that if we go to verse 15 Daniel 11 verse 15 it says so the king of the north king of the north is the subject of verse 15 let me put it over here he sees Daniel 11 verse 15 it says king of the north he's the subject then we went into verse 16 it says he comes against him and you remember I say that the he was the subject and that said that he would be the king of the north remember I said that then I said that vector that was wrong that him is the subject sorry no not the subject he's still the subject of the sentence but he's the king of the north yeah so the way send this is a written sometimes they're not they don't have absolute clarity on what's being said and here I've got the subject he's doing something to the object subject is doing something to the object but you can switch a sentence round and reword it and you can put the object in front of the subject but it doesn't do away with this being the object of this being the subject it doesn't have to be the subject comes first in the sentence you can you can write a sentence in in a bad way to make it the object first so in the original that's what they've done in the original the way the sentence is written verse 11 it runs something like this even to the Prince of the host he magnifies himself and then it says and from him the dailies taken away and now let's use rule number one right before we do that there's the prince and is the he so who wants the subject of this sentence it's not that that's why I'm saying it's not he says even to the prince he is doing something even to the prince so he's still the subject and he's still the object that hasn't changed but the way the sentence is written is that even to the prince he magnifies himself and it's written specifically for a reason so if we use rule number one and there's him who mr. him referring to rule number one the one that's nearest here it is and let's use rule number two rule number two is a subject it's still the same thing so what we're showing is that when you go back to the original both rules take you to the same place and the way that this sentence is written is very specific it says even to the prince he is he now baqi now magnifies himself except obviously the princess a hose and then it's going to deal with all the three portions of the ticket two extra portions of history that brother tiny was saying it says and from him the daily is taken away and then it says and the place of his sanctuary is cast down so you can see that the him and the his are referring back to the he which is the little horn which is pagan Rome yeah it really praise God could I think it's a really neat however way you look at this verse you always come up with the same answer and with when we win when we're doing with grammar at number 42 we've got four rules that all taking us to the same place that he magnifies himself and from him and his plaque and the place of essentially all of them are leading back to peg the rope brother tiger I think any random i can ask you later it's about the about the translation for Alex not a soldier so Jonathan how can we approve that because I cannot be read Hebrew that that's this is my question you'll need to have you need to have a plus with it you don't have a Hebrew Old Testament that's got these Strong's coding with it I have it but it's just rude okay yeah so you go through this if your bushes around the same as mine the first word that you're going to pick up is H 5704 so age 50 70 s for says something along the lines is it right that's right to left right right to left yet free backwards so it's going to say something like and unto or even to then the next one is 82 69 which says the chief or the prince and then the next one is 66 35 which says the host so it's the first three words are saying even to the Prince of the host even to the Prince of the house so you can read it even into even if you can't read Hebrew army dick that's fine the host or army so it is even to the Prince of the army then the next one is 1431 which is stomach like he magnifies or he exalts and then the next one is 4480 which is from so the intent is going to read even to the Prince of the host he magnifies himself which is the order that I've got here even to the Prince of the house he magnifies himself in the Hebrew in the Hebrew father's the same grammatical rule as we as we understand he and so this him is attaching right back to why did you translate it like to this related to make it hard for us I don't know okay so maybe it's just that to make it did I don't know brother Colette I was going to say wouldn't it seems to be seems to me that the Hebrew has grammatical rules also and we've tried to not only change the words but change the grammatical rules to suit our words and that probably how the message has been lost in this translation yes because Howard how will the translators looking at this verse wouldn't it translators understand that John Peters understood what's the scene with daniel chapter a little horn sorry I don't the fee not the subject of theme the theme is the sanctuary the feasts discotheque religious symbol symbolization John Peters understands that and so did his translators and so they come to this verse and they're saying daily sacrifice has got to do with whom God's people there's a service going on and everybody knows who Jesus is his our high priestly ministry the high priest he's going to minister for us so when they read this who else could this daily sacrifice be referred to accept Christ ministration so they're going to skew this verse back to make it say what they want it a based upon two premises that the first thing is what is daniel 8 about it's all about the sanctuary and who deals with the sanctuary Christ the high priest and when it talks about the daily sacrifice because everywhere in the Bible it talks about some daily it's talking about some kind of sacrificial system most of the time they're going to imprint the word sacrifice as soon as you do that who else who does any bit daily sacrificing he certainly doesn't it's Jesus that does so they're going to twist this verse around to make it say that in the English and they're doing that based upon the beasts are described as being sacrificial animals yeah and and the claims of the sanctuary at the back end of this the whole thing they can see it's all about the century these sanctuary animals the tens of the century there's this daily every time we talk about daily the daily is a continual and that's hope seemed about continual is the morning and evening sacrifices so the morning even sacrifice you where they're going to get that from verse 26 it says the marais vision of the day of the morning and evening verse 14 says 2300 they didn't say days it's 2300 morning needed this is the continual so that when they go to continue they know this must be talking about the continual sacrifice who sacrifices continually for us you've got bible verses to do prove this this is proof texting you proofs texas you're going to go back to Jesus so they're going to make this verse they couldn't done it even if they left it in the original but they want to twist it around to make it clear to you who is who so this is Christ ministration that's being dealt with and that's why they switch this round dere agenda it basically comes down to the agenda Brad Johnson not sure if you're just answered this question but we know the Hebrew they know our pastors they know he'd make what so in if dated just with a day they directly can see that this centerless switch around war and if they use the same grammatical you rules they should have come to the same conclusions of what is there but I guess you answered the question what is there are you say what JD no I'm gonna trying to say the past when I met agenda I make no translators if some think about what you've just said I can only speak about education in the UK because that's where brother Colley Spinoza's when you when you get ringing in the UK from about its earlier at an earlier age now it from about 11 to about 16 you normally you normally have to do a foreign language you know mostly cyber French or German now if you go to the UK nobody can speak French or German but everybody has done about four or five years or French or German at school if everybody has but nobody learns it so when we know that pastors go to a seminary and they learn Hebrew there in the East as they're in the same boat I don't think the vast majority of ever learned Hebrew or Greek it's just the class that they have to go through to jump through some hoops there are some people at high school who are proficient in language and they love doing a foreign language and they become proficient and they become experts at it and there are a few pastors who really love Greek and Hebrew and they end up becoming what we call theologians but the vast majority and just because they've learnt Greek and Hebrew I don't think they're competent in that language and they it's just a class that they have to attain they tick a box and they pass through just like most of us when we learn a foreign language at school so my first point is most pastors couldn't even read and understand what what's going on here the second point is that if you ask a theologian who's innocent doesn't understand its controversy and say could you read verses nine to twelve node read it and say yeah I understand that and then say in first nine is there a masc work that's being done here and the new verse 9 it goes to feminine and they'd read that and they could pick it up they say yeah I can see that and you would say now you can read the words you must know the answer the point being that there's a difference between being able to read being able to know what you're reading what the point of it is we should know that as a truth because we read all of this Bible in English and we don't know what most of it means so the fact that you can read doesn't mean you know what it means so as they're reading these verses if they'll tell you that masking bit and they'll probably say something like I didn't notice that before so what and we'd say which means so what that's the point you should know what it means but I don't know what it means so in the same way when they would read it this way did say and what's the point of that what difference does it make because they're not aware of the arguments just like when we read any verse in the Bible in the English we wouldn't know what it means because we're not aware of the argument someone has to bring the argument to you and say well think about it think about how this is working and then you're confronted with that and then your challenge so that's my kind of response to these pastors who are fluent in this language but they still don't get it because we're fluent in English I think most of us in this room are more fluent in English then Hebrew scholar even who teaches Hebrew is is in that language you know because we've been immersed in English for 20 30 40 years and so we're really familiar with this much more familiar that I think it most theologians would be in Hebrew so I think I think that we can expect them to know more about the Hebrew language just because they can read it it doesn't transfer that to know what he's talking about in closing because we've run out of time we've looked at these two rules and in the English it looks like dependent you've got a choice in the English we'd want to use number rule number two and make this Rome and though and most of church today would want to use rule number one which would make it Jesus but if you look at this in the original then usually both rules one and two take you to pagan Rome and the question is why was it switched drowned and I think the reason it switched around is because the translators are trying to not translate they're trying to into prett this is the most this is the most this is the best translation that you're going to get into in the English language and it's very little interpreting that goes on I shouldn't say there's actually quite a lot of interpreting going on but most of it's benign and this is one of the ones where its not benign you need to know that they interpret it and no wider interpret in it and then why they make a mistake if you go back to the original it's really clear that Daniel was very specific he wants you to know that here's the Prince of the host and he's going to take all the bits and pieces that to do with pagan Rome and talk about the back end of the sentence in the place that he wants them to be and this has not been understood for millennia except to the end of world let's pray Heavenly Father we thank you for your loving kindness new goodness towards us we ask and pray that you would be with us and bless us help us to honor you and glorify your name father help us to understand your words clearer so that we might be effective teachers of your word we thank you for the blessings of this day we thank you that you desire to be with us and commune with us blessed us for the rest of this evening and help us to continue to glorify your name is our prayer in Jesus is wholly a wonderful name