(11-21-17) -Sin Bearer - (5CmUYOGD1sg)

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Publish Date: 11/21/2017
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Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (11-21-17) -Sin Bearer-5CmUYOGD1sg
YouTube ID: 5CmUYOGD1sg

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I mean just turn to Romans chapter 6 sooner read the first 11 verses Romans 6:1 2:11 what shall we say then shall we continue in sin that grace may abound god forbid how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein no you're not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father even so we also should walk in newness of life for if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection knowing this that our old man is crucified with him that the body of sin might be destroyed and henceforth we should not serve sin for he that is dead is freed from sin now if we be dead with Christ we believe that we shall also live with him knowing that Christ been raised from the dead dies no more death hath no more dominion over him for in that he died he died unto sin once but in that he liveth he liveth unto God likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord I've given it there's a sheet out by the way and then nobody's got a copy of it probably one gets through every I don't think we'll get through the quotes but they're just some more quotes on on the will the second sheet compares your will against God's will the kind of a back-to-back comparison of what's happening in the relationship that we and he had together so one of us a question how many kind of deaths are they how many kind of deaths are their brother Jonathan how many kinds of deaths are they more than one more than one so can you name some of them by crisis yeah do something that's not wash through through that second day brother lationship second day what's the first day there must be the first one then as well yeah so that's the first one you say okay so one puts spiritual death here that's fact revolutes right would that be that one correct the Martha if we're just looking spiritually so you want to distinguish between them I'm more asking I see that there are two deaths at different places so at least on the line spiritually but I don't know but I don't know where you're going so I want us to think about this one or these ones from later what is the second day right to the eternal and this physical death here what's this one anybody okay that's right so is this one sleep right that's leak as well no that's not sleep would be I guess it would be but it would be eternal sleep and this one Christ a Christ died on the cross which was spiritual day would it say you tell me what you think it means that Oh Oh a baptism Dane oh yeah give me Christ a it's it's a different death than than what definitely referred to it the death of the cross yeah we die yeah that's a different death too physically it's not it's not different different he slept for three days in his tomb but I think the meaning was different than this that's like a special type of the day if you if you consider only the word death no I don't think so but if you consider the circumstances I would say yes sleep because that makes a huge hit me I'm just I think he just died with that the dust that any man would die you know he died of a broken heart and but he died and so saying it's the same one which one that one or that one first step that one out if you say that's one that you miss actually okay is there a difference between this one and this one yes what's the difference so then though that's what happens afterwards I'm asking for the death what's the difference no no difference okay now if I'm talking about the death bear they if you know about your day the way you die is gonna be different okay the way you CC those two is different the second death is BA he'll fire but he's talking about just the devil itself right that's what I mean the second death is Hellfire I've sent a means of executing that death is different okay about talking about the actual death itself baptism someone said that then there our vision is my experience is different Nathan so we know that when when we die God receives the breath of life and themselves so they could resurrect us at the second coming that second death I assume that that breath of life no he takes away so that there's no trace of cinema in the universe no trace of C so you saying I think that I saw what the difference is you just say things yet there's no difference there's no difference even in the third death some people are gonna die three times there's even the potential some people are gonna die four times then there's this sleep so we can have three or four days I'll leave it - but didn't didn't ki4 die we have three day he's gonna come up in the special rez of the fraction and die again and at the end of the thousand years he's gonna die again set it in every case it's sleep I wouldn't just make the point so that we're all there's a misconception this idea that there are different types of death it's all the same thing just death this day sister bromley only because i faintest we've constructed that because it gives us the ability to say you slept and you're not really dead in the new sort of wake up and and if we're not careful when we go to the deadly wound the Bible says they say it was a deadly wound or did it say it was as a deadly wound and people are going to read into that what that it wasn't really deadly just looked like a deadly wound and that's it so the papers he survived that so was it really a deadly wound or not was it was it a real deadly did it die yes and we know that because in revelation 17 verse 8 it talks about a resurrection isn't it yeah it's a resurrection of something that was there before and it turns out to be something new how do we know it's the new BAE in Revelation because it comes out of a bottomless pit and bottomless pit is a definition of new manifestation of satanic power so it was a real death it gets resurrected in newness of life so even though then we construct this this term of sleep it's still real death and the only difference between any of these is just duration so what is this that I wanted just to clear that point up it's real death if we're okay with that there's only one type of death not two or three different types brother Nathan okay yeah so my question is why did Jesus die we're ready in Romans 6 what's the purpose of his death I'm not saying the answers in the in Roman six I'm sorry so payment it's right that date anyone else that we might live but I mean that's in part of the understanding of paying the debt okay okay but I wonder I wonder kind of like oh I've got I'm with it I don't like using this word practical example it is a performant of prophecy but what's the purpose of that I guess working with something that's why I'm asking brother Jason so that we're free from C so that we don't do any more thing so in verse 10 it says for he but in that he died he died unto sin once why does he only need to die once not over and over and over again have you heard the phrase crucifying Christ afresh so does that mean he died once you crucify him a game and the game and a game how many times he dying more than once yep how do we crucify Christ afraid so when you see yeah thank you when you seen you crucified you kill him again so are we okay with that definition it's the payment of the debt and what is this debt that we've accrued see ya so you did some sin and then what happens to that sin that needs sorting out so it's written in your book sorry so unless - someone has to die for your seat so you're going to have a transfer of that scene yeah I'm gonna get transferred from you to whom Christ and you dealt with that scene or not sure yes Bravo Jason he's like yeah and if we speak if we think about garments keeping you garments spotless etc what does that exchange look like so you did in terms of books but if you think about justification sanctification the symbology that Ellen White often uses the marriage garment the wedding dress what does that exchange of sin look like there so you get in your garment and what happens to your old garment you get gets it first we have to get taken off he puts that garment on so where is the father's wrath now targeted to Jesus to Christ and then he pays that price hit at the cross we agree with that so if he did that easy this is he the sin bearer yeah do we agree with that he's a sin bearer okay so if he's the sin bearer then if we go to the sanctuary model and we think about the scapegoat what is the scapegoats job function his role in life so he's the sin bearer now what is evangelical Christianity teach that the scapegoat is he said that Christ does everybody know that that that's what they teach they teach that the scapegoat is a Simba why would they treat that the scapegoat is Jesus why would they say that so what time does yeah because they're taking all this theology I feel logical isn't it yeah he's gonna bear your sin because Jesus is the sin bearer so you just two plus two and you get fine yeah who do we say the scapegoat is we're gonna say it's not Christ it's Satan so they're saying that's wrong and this is correct yeah this is what we say that the scapegoat is Satan and we're going to develop that through the Old Testament modeling and the other way it's going to confirm this so if here's the sin bearer and his the sin bearer what's going on transference okay you have a one pinned the penalty person and the other just like God dealing with the root of sin how can how can you be doing all these assuming he's putting all the scene on this person and he's then once he puts us in on this person what does he do with a person okay putting me on the person safe escape those will put this in on this on on that person and then what's gonna do to the person it's gonna kill him and what's this story you're going to put this in on the person and then what so the killing so there's no difference between the two because there's no difference between the two you're saying this is an eradication of sin of the same problem is that what you just kind of describe it as yeah it's like the then thanks very much they the children here didn't even feel secure and so that the scene was the best one on that uh escape goes here and you lay down to the wilderness so it's it's showing just the eradication okay I said to the existing system so this is the eradication of sin ruefully the eradication of the existence of see okay and what is this is it'll be a medication of the existence of sin or not existence instead exist if honey listen he's all in there though how many desks what death did he die that's why I asked the questions originally you know there's only one type of death is death these death so did he not video did he not die for that scene yeah and he's he gonna die for the scene both die Percy and when he died he eradicate the same problem no he ready Kate's the existence of scene and he's not and the sin isn't gonna be eradicated here in innocence yes we're not in the same sense in this vehicle what's a different thing because you have the punishment person in it that which why pursue the scene they swallowed this one don't the person that's the punishment percent of what's that what I mean by what I said Quentin's purse in his the the people who have investors in there like Christ babe they still committed a sin so therefore their sin had to be atoned for but in that scapegoat those things when we look at the end of the world done people the people's games were not when he died with that the atonement yeah I don't think it was the atonement is the ministration of Christ tonight he's dead the desease and this we're gonna change his definition he just pays the price he says I'll die for them the fact that he dies for them doesn't atone for you because if you and I are estranged because I crashed your car and someone says don't worry I'll pay the pay the bill doesn't mean you still like me you've got your money back but doesn't mean we're still friends so the debts been paid but we haven't the atonement hasn't happened you and I are not one so his death isn't the atonement that's another error that people have been evangelical Christianity that the atonement was done at the cross and we teach it had never been done at the crossroads right and ivory was dead once and the difference between the two Bobby you said that he showed you there wasn't you haven't told me that they differently okay so the origin of sin is all fine but I'm just saying all of this is that being we've seen how sin gets dealt with and sin gets dealt with with the transfer of the sin of your of your sin onto someone else a third party in his the sin bearer he's going to be destroyed he has to because he's got sin and solely this person ldef brother Tyler brother Larry I think the way that you're approaching it they're essentially the same but the difference is the top part is the guest and the bottom part is the bride brother Tyler was insane they're atoning for some different sins for they're not attorneys but they're they're paid they're paying for different things so what scene is he painful your past sins the debt you accrued just by being alive for however long you were before you were a Christian don't you say yeah seen before Christ and this one is Stewart says that all the sins that Satan tempted his people that's the same tempted God God's people so sin will get placed upon him and there's pardon written against them and you're not God's people till your baptism so when he's sin that you've committed since your baptism into the into the truth then from there on all those sins that are forgiven of you get placed upon same so they send off to climb you Christ means baptism brother Larry what Lucifer is guilty of sin can't blame him for your actions but he's not he look he's not dying for that he's dying for your sins because he's the sin bearer but things get transferred over to him though syndicate transferred onto him aren't his sins they're yours he's paying your price not his own I know remember this is this is a parable Satan has his own problem to deal with that's fine he'll do but the the symbology of the scapegoat isn't isn't Satan its isn't Satan's personal sins is it it's if someone else's sins they get transferred on to him with you yours so he's and is that scapegoat innocent he hasn't done anything wrong so in that model say it hasn't done anything wrong Satan will die for his own sin which is not what this models teaching the go hasn't done it he's just going to say it's all going to get dumped on you was Jesus innocent they're both innocent people I think it's a clean anymore dope I think it's clean that's why people say it's Jesus cuz you has all the symbology of Jesus very sorrowful I have a question to what Tyler says how can you see that the disc scapegoat various sins after you after baptism in the even if you can't even if you call Romans 6 says this baptism or this death here that you experienced with the typification of what Christ real death yeah and when he walks in newness of life is his resurrection it's talking about and after that resurrection it talks about a burying of something what gets buried yes we get very yeah we got buried we do she said sister Kathy what you think yo life of what what you be doing in your old life soon Sydney so that's why I've got here the sin this is what gets buried the thing gets buried and so after baptism you're never allowed to sin again not only you're not allowed to sin again it's impossible to sin again is that correct the Bible says is impossible says if it's if his seed remains in you you cannot sing I don't know so the reason it you sinned is because the seed doesn't remain in you you choose not to have that seed in you so then you sing and then God's got a safety net for you that he's gonna through mercy say I'll give you another chance she's fair enough and then he's gonna pick up the tab for those ones because the tab for these ones have already been paid for so do we think that this person here pays the price for all of these sins that we've seen get that the debt get has to get paid for two times or is that only paid for once that's what my question is there's the sin problem get paid for twice or once I see what I'm saying once too so if the same problem gets paid for once then all your sins before here they were buried I mean isn't that the whole symbology of baptism they buried their dealt with and where were they placed in the bottom of the bottom of the sea which see the Laver this is all symbology of baptism so all of our past life just gets sorted out by Christ once you live in newness of life under grace this shouldn't be a nice this thing shouldn't need to exist so let me ask a different question you're a Jewish person you're a young boy very young you've just been born what's going to happen to you in eight days before those eight days happen like one to seven are you really in the family of God are you part of the family of God mr. Levine says no what's the circumcision a symbol of do we all agree with that so you get baptized when you're eight days old and so you're here at baptism on you and so everything after that which is the whole sanctuary service is what history that this history or this history I'm saying is if you follow through that circumcision is baptism it's this history that's being dealt with and what we've got in our minds is that these Hebrews four century after century who's doing all of this sin it's all going to be transferred into crew to Christ is all being symbolized as sins here that will be for baptism but their sins after baptism because aren't they by definition People of God yeah they're in the kingdom of heaven this issue here about the guests and the bride is a big subject you know we can just put the two words here but to actually conceptualize what they mean I don't think is that straightforward I can't in this model here I don't know if I could just say I'll give you an example working model of how that works but it's correct brother Bob this he pretended that to all those Kiwis ten we say weeks versus in Hebrew ten ten ten ten weeks a temperate by which well we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all yeah I believe so I don't get that stuff the point is if you say after eight days a baby was circumcised so after eight days the baby was in a covenant relationship so after eight days motor one doesn't work anymore now it's mortal to stay correct yeah yeah okay my question now is why do they had to offer a land the Israelites could have been resolved once a year because only the scapegoat now various sins for offer land when they do something wrong yeah because you need some kind of transfer system it's all typology solar symbol needed transfer system to get from you to somewhere else than the single page wise the blood is just a transfer over it's just it's just a holding place for it because God wants to teach us about the binding off of it inclusion okay but dammit Alam had to die for a twenty year old person he committed any anything it doesn't matter what but he had to go to the sanctuary you had to kill a lamb so one one land is dying and then at the Day of Atonement another thousand different symbols because a sin offering doesn't have to be a love if you was an individualís as a matter of fact the Bible is specific if we have committed a sin you're supposed to offer and you either before you guys present simply friend if you can't you can produce two turtledoves one guys one is if you can't use that you can bring a handful of greens so there are different provisions that are made the love that is offered up a layer of on this altar of sacrifice that love is the whole burnt offering it is offered morning and evening there is nobody sinned Percy and say okay I'm going to it's just that means symbol of Greece that is offered that pays the baby that loved when we sing the animal is not placed on the altar is that answer your question uh not right now no but those distinctions if it is not clear brother per minute still hard to conceptualize writing lovely because the lamb is not clear when we when we offer us in offering the thing is not placed on the altar and just explain what your problem is again as we said this the guest before baptism his sins are dealt or Jesus deals with it with with his sins but after baptism now we gonna the the scapegoat is too wonderful Paris Paris to sins but an eight-year-old Jew and he gets eight days or eight days like a young kid he doesn't commit any sin with with a eight days old so he doesn't need so to speak the first solution he only needs the second solution and I don't get that because for every sin at least is I understand it and I might be wrong they had to go to the sanctuary and kill them howdy hey I don't think he's giving the distinction that you set forth even if they have to go even if they sin afterwards and have to go to the sanctuary that the blood that gets carried into the sanctuary ultimately when it gets transferred it's getting transferred to the scapegoat all that sin after he's eight days old according your mom it's gonna get handled by the scapegoat the fact that there's provision for if any man sin we have an advocate does it deny the structure that's laid out in the sanctuary even just because you have opportunity to go in and and confess your sins and slay a lamb after you're eight days old doesn't mean that that same gets placed upon the upper box it ends up on the cinder at on the day of atonement which is escape go to think about this in here I'm saying never gets transferred to this person this in got transferred to this person not the scapegoat they got buried and the only sins that you're going to have on your record book and the sins post baptism and if you never became a Christian if you never became a Christian all of that debt that you're accruing what's going to happen to that eventually who's going to bear those sins because you can't get transferred to this person because the transfer mechanism goes from you to the sanctuary however you're going to just put in a box to the scapegoat and if you never confess to anything to anyone you have to bear those things it's Deuteronomy 18 19 if you don't transfer the blood or if you don't obey the person sori says it will be required of you that means the blood will require you your life that's acts 3 21 to 23 I think as well which is when he when he gets quite this white Peter so sister Brahman Nina oh yeah okay so it's made up density I was gonna ask now what baptism water baptism like for a person that Troy walked back to I'm not trying to disconnect water baptism from the new high experience this is the formalization of the message is 1918 a 911 so you were played them together okay so you place it there it's just regarding the fact for example that people got baptized in like 2008 or something yeah we've got a reformed line is up is a template to get on disorganized lives and put them into order so without having a framework to Porter to your life and to adjust your life correctly that's the purpose of the reformed line isn't it it's the deal partly with this issue of the bride and the guests and we focus on the bride but it's also helped to help out the guests the framework is there the sequence of what's happening but that was it have I addressed your question because it didn't seem to me that yeah I was just gonna ask that what you're addressing up front there is it more than reformed line where you have formalization 911 or is it more an individual I'm trying to say the principle cuz there's no difference between them yeah the principle is a baptism the debt has all been paid those sins were buried never to be addressed again and if we get confused on that when you come to a reformed line if that debt wasn't paid you get into problems try to understand what the same problem is because after that the only sin that you're going to ever deal with is the ones the only issue can deal with is the sins that happened afterwards so I'm trying to use this simple moral model to launch off to launch into a prophetic model because you can do that seamlessly from one to another you can go from prophetic to moral immoral to petty to understand the truth maybe that doesn't make sense sister to know that that it gets transferred over he has to bear all of that sin God you know God how does God teach deep spiritual truths in a way that all of us can understand and so you conceptually you're finding it difficult to to swallow like is it many people are we can me a Christian now you're gonna your complaint in this whole issue we knew before you bought baptized you accrued a whole heap of debt well what is circumcision if not baptism I'm only trying to stick to the symbology so the fact that people are getting hung up because he's eight days old I'm saying this is just typology so parable Esther is committing whoredom I mean we put her on a pedestal say she's a great woman it's typology symbology it's a parable the fact that he's eight and eight year old children don't sin anyway isn't here or there so take that model out and come back into reality when you were 20 and you lived a whole life of rebellion from God and then you get that title in your twenty what happens to all of that debt that you built up all of those sins that you commit they were dealt with here by Christ he bears those sins breviary think you did after 20 as a Christian Christ isn't gonna bear those sins because they've already been dealt with you should never have been sitting after that if you do he'll do he'll bear those things it's two different sin Bevers so people are struggling with the fact that it happens to 8008 they are on children and then I don't struggle with that because it's just a parable it's just a model to teach us something the only reason I'm saying that is because we think a 20 year old Jew who's in open rebellion is in this history in this model before baptism he's not he's already been baptized eases the household of God so once you're baptized you're in you're in the latest in church when you start doing things wrong he base those sins Christ won't bear those sins but in the - in the typification there has to be some transfer over and it's the transfer mechanism that people are struggling with I think sister Tamina brother Richards and then sister she Miller oh this that the men are doing one at a time two questions first if those - is that the - blooding Zout we talked about in on Sabbath yep if you want to call it blotting out this is the blotting out that happens of baptisms your past history blotted out and then there's going to be a record that begins to get taken that record is - blowing out that more often than not Ellen White talks about okay in fact I haven't found a single place where she explicitly says that these things are blotted out imagine what which is what throws people thank you my second question is why does God do that you know that after baptism now everything goes on the scapegoat like what is the purpose for it you know because Jesus can't die twice oh I don't think we realize the criminality of sinning as a Christian and we get that from a misconception of the Jewish economy it's a serious thing to make Christ be crucified again the red day in Hebrew six the other day in class gets to a stage where he says he enough is enough you've sinned it doesn't even get sorted out and that's what it this issue about tears is so let me ask you a question when the tear publicly declares himself pulled off his jump please sir and it says tear on his t-shirt is there any hope of recovering that person just a simple yes or no will do not why you're gonna say no so once they declared themselves openly you're saying there's no more salvation to that person sister Bromley Hannah had that made then it would bring into my mind no I wouldn't do that I don't believe that simple okay this is this is more complex than that sister Terry are we eight days old at nine eleven in that symbology yeah sister Brahmaji for eight days old at nine eleven then we're an 8 year old baby has no sin so we're send less at nine eleven yes that that's the whole model that the reform like teaches that the same problem gets paid by 9/11 it's all sorted out and you start in newness of life so I wouldn't guess be pre 9/11 I guess what I use this is slightly different model and the loss may be it may be I don't understand I'm the place I know sister she Miller and then robbery - are you gonna be drawing a line and laying them out on the line I mean where the guest is in the bride and not the guests than the bride person okay but I can do this so on the line it's a simple line but well with 9/11 baptism if I call this one I call this - this is one this is two this is midnight this is 89 but you're not gonna although these things here to this conversion process and baptism or get wiped clean just you're not including the guests in the brain as I said I think that probably with the guests and the bride's more conflict we really demonstrated that because you've got guests carpenters who build in the ark right to the very end and they're not gonna make it we've got the subject of Zachariah who he there's a call to people who are doing sin who have already built the foundations oh did you send your upholding bronwen's premise that the guests are before and I'll have it by your diagram and the bride I know that's why this is not that simple maybe I should rub it off I've already put that could you say and I didn't give the opportunity to explain what you meant by that but I don't think it's just meaning yes the hearings and the bride is here because if we're going to say the bride is the movement the movement is back in his history and the guests are in this history from my understanding as I understand the guests in the bride both the whole model of 1/2 applies to both the guests and the bride but it's just two different levels of looking at the same structure perfectly just o1 during dinner with the sanctuary mother it's a passing my D isn't it that's where your baptism well all the things the sacrifice was seen in all that repentance far that's prior to 9/11 or screams about 9/11 so I'm wondering the same we committed the priest would take the abilities the morning even the sacrifice to take that to the bill correct we're with them they'll be it on the line I knew they'd be there presentation of crisis fish if we're in the second part why get rebaptised I mean literally why we asking people to get why do people want to get rebaptised the first part like you like I'm very tiny not something that you have something on it's not a yo-yo if you are converting your exchange that's why I said to me I'm struggling to do this guests and bride we have clear prophetic evidence to say in this history here as the temple is about to be begun there's a clear call by Zechariah and Haggai to put your lives in order because they haven't been sister Brittany you mentioned in a prior class that just because you sin after conversion it doesn't mean he were never converted yes in and you also said today that if the seed remains after baptism then you won't sin my question is and maybe I'm overthinking this does any prior baptism fit into that model especially since we were all probably baptized into a church that didn't teach you that you shouldn't stand after baptism lost part your question is there's the there any baptism fit into that model any prior baptism to reorganization like fit into that model like which like would it be the first payment of sin or second I think you know let me ask you I don't even know how to hit no I don't know what you're asking I think people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say I want us to get comfortable with one issue at a moral level taketake you know forget the lines for a moment is that when a person is baptized all of your past history is dealt with by Jesus it's not going to be dealt with by the scapegoat and and those sins are blotted out they're not going to be considered in the judgment the only sins that are considered in the judgment are the ones that you do when you're a Christian or if you would express it another way when the testing begins there the sins that we get recorded against our names if you never become a Christian all of those sins you're going to have to you'll have to be dealt you'll have to deal with them yourself they're not going to get transferred onto anybody it's just that simple content that I wanted this to see first of all we need to do I need to just straighten out the issue about death Desi's just death not two or three different types of deaths only one type of death you either dead or you're alive second one I wanted this to be clear on is that there are two sin bearers Satan and Christ and the the sins that he will bear are your previous sins our sins that you did in ignorance if you like before you became a Christian and the sins that he'll bear are the deliberate malicious things that you're doing whilst you're a Christian and in this list two separate works so the problem the reason why people struggle with all of this is because we've all got broken lives either for a rebellion since we baptized or lack of information so what you skillfully did sister Brittany was blame the church that they never told you that you're not allowed to sin after baptism I'm going to bring that back to you and saying are you telling me seriously you didn't know that okay so yeah you're gonna tell me but sometime afterwards you figured it out even though we knew at 12 you knew you're not allowed to sin again I mean you must have been brought up in a family that says your family said you can do wrong all the time it doesn't matter he there to listen to you your parents I'm sure they must have brought you up to say you're not supposed to do wrong everybody knows that even their 12 year old knows you're not supposed to do wrong so even even if they told 12 year old mind that idea that you're not supposed to sin off the baptism must have been there now you might argue can the 12 year old put into practice the requirements of baptism in this whole model that would be a different question is a 12 year old capable of doing that but I'm saying the 12 year old understands the terms of conditions of salvation everyone does in my in my opinion and the answer for the 12 year old is it's already been answered yes 12 year olds don't do sin that the capability of not sinning Jesus demonstrated that elder Jeff brother Bobby Europe if I'm understanding you right when we're baptized were baptized in you the first the upper box into Christ's death bang but when we get rebaptised we're not yes you read baptism is we're going back and we're doing a game what we should have done before the first time yeah so you're basically going it's like a catch-22 you going back to the beginning again like snakes and ladders you've fallen all the way down there you have to read you have to start again it's not his will that that happens and what I thought a reform is supposed to do when it seals you intellectually and then spiritually now and I've said they happen sequentially but it happens in the sequence first intellectually then spiritually and I don't mean that in like to blocks like this first intellectually and then spiritually I think it's like this a truth comes and it's intellectual spiritual then another truth comes intellectual spirits like that so it has to happen intellectually spiritually and unless you've got you've got a correct model you're always going to go in rounding a loop and go no way so the purpose of a reformed line is to break the cycle isn't it to show that the sunday laws about to happen get your life in order it's not going to keep on running around in circles so for so long because we've either been maliciously rebellious and thought we could get away with it willing the ignorant or no one's ever taught us or somewhere in between we've got away with keep on getting rebaptised you know we're putting the similar baptism here but we don't even do that we just say sorry Jesus can you let me off of all of this stuff I've just done in the last two minutes and we just want to reset and does he reset but that's not what he's Willy's for us and the reform is supposed to teach us that to break that cycle and get the information correct mr. Brittney is trying to say with being baptized in the church and even though I've never I don't know that I've ever heard anybody from the pulpit ask when we stay at it from the sacred desk in the Adventist Church but it they they don't they don't uplift the model that that we're supposed to go and sin no more buried that that the model isn't that it but it is that is lived out that is taught by the lives of everyone in the church most of people in church say is that that you just we have an advocate and we're supposed to try but we're only human we're just gonna keep sinning until Christ comes and then you know some fairy dust is going to come down and we're going to be changed in that moment and we're all just contending all the way until he shows up in the clouds and that's a life in the pit of hell and I've come to understand since I came into this message but that's that set to the message that is taught and so when you're a young kid you don't know anything except what you see your parents your elders doing and they're walking around with their pet sins in their back pocket doing the same thing so I understand kind of what Brittany is saying I know at one level you can say the scriptures say that and there's a contradiction because we're not living what the Word of God says but it's a reality of how a lot of people are living their life in the Adventist Church today you have an answer to a question - yeah the visitors yesterday afternoon we looked at this quote here in a bit more detail that we were struggling with in the morning class and I think we had a bit more clarity on that that this this sort of short little thing that we did hear about the death and about the dealing of sin I've closed that section off because all I wanted to show you without making an application of why it's significant and why it's not is for people to start thinking about whether or not it's correct that at baptism your past history is blotted out or whether or not that's an erroneous concept that I'm suggesting or that this scapegoat the record books when we talk about the investigative judgment goes all the way back to birth your literal birth so I expressed it on Sabbath that there are these two Blyton's out there's this blotting out of sin at baptism and it's real and then after that a record has begun to is begun to be taken of a person's Christian life so I believe it has implications on the way we understand our reformed line so I'm not going to make an application of that we don't have time to do that anyway but just so that people can start thinking about it if this is the correct model I think that it is I think it's defendable and I think I've just done that but it's for people to go away and think about the implications of what that means to see if it's Fitz or if it doesn't so I'm finishing that section off closing that off just yes or no but you may want not want to give me yes or no it has nothing to do necessarily with what you're saying but in Romans 7 I was going to ask this question afterwards but you started with Romans 6 in Romans 7 verse 15 yeah I could read more than one verse but for that which I do I allow not for what I would that I do not but what I hate that I do do you understand that to be Paul describing a converted manner and converted man from verse 14 I think almost to the end of the chapter honor this is this experience of a nun converting man could Lambert Church her in the recent past we actually had that presented otherwise and I didn't see anyone be alarmed by that presentation except me and I didn't go up to making a big deal about it so I just want to put that in the record would leave it alone I just had one more comment on that Romans seven begins with a repeating enlarge of Romans six but now he switches from baptism symbology or death to marriage it's the same story and then he goes on from verse 14 onward to see the contact that he's having it's not working than in Romans chapter eight he talks about a person who has experienced conversion because this person is in the spirit not in the flesh he's not currently minded he spiritually minded so I understand that Romans seven the back end of the chapter is not dealing with a converted person and hopefully I don't mean it to may sound like a catch phrase but to believe that it's it's a converted person is destroying our reformed line and it's it's all this concept of what the Omega theology is all about it's the Magus it's a mega theology that says the same problem doesn't get dealt with at baptism it gets dealt with in the future and we have to live this struggle in decrepid lives and the reason we you all say that is because we experience it and we feel it in our relationships with one another and the reformed line is saying it's not supposed to be that way not only it doesn't have to be but it's not supposed to be and that's the call I think to the rest that we that we talk about so often the rest and refreshing that's what that call is desire of ages four six six paragraph four in the work of redemption there is no compulsion no external forces of is employed under the influence of the Spirit of God man is left free to choose whom he will serve in the change that takes place when the soul surrenders to Christ there is the highest sense of freedom the expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself true we have no power to free ourselves from Satan's control but when we desire to be set free from sin and in our great need cry out for a power out of and above ourselves the powers of the soul are imbued with the divine energy of the Holy Spirit and they obeyed the dictates of the will in fulfilling the will of God any Comics picks up divine energy here says the divine image of the Holy Spirit tied up with the divine energy of the passage that we read yesterday I'll be done if no one has any thoughts the expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself true we have no power to free ourselves from Satan's control but when we desire to be set free from sin etc sister Terry what's the soul here would you say the home bank the whole being but when we talk about the whole being what is the whole being it's the lower powers lower nature when the lower nature gets straightened out you get a transformation transformation of the whole being Alan White will tell you us not to consider our feedings doesn't she says you know don't think about your feelings I agree with that but I think people misunderstand what that means because our whole being what we are our whole soul is all driven by what sort of him by feelings he wasn't about feelings we wouldn't even have a same problem would we because God yeah if it wasn't all about feelings God could have just made robots because he were creating these images all about feelings isn't it isn't that what all relationships are about friends marriage anything it's all about feelings so when other white talks about you can't trust your feelings we have to be careful about what we understand that she means I wonder in one another one which I forgot to do this isn't in your notes signs of the times July no I won't read it from sorry desire of Ages it's an easier one desire of Ages three three one paragraph three these are of ages 3 3 1 paragraph 3 this is connected with to this issue of death so we're talking about death hopefully we've said that there's no more sin when we get to heaven is there any sin no so why we sitting now yeah or because we're saying because we're not in heaven so we'll carry on doing it until we get into heaven when we get to heaven we'll all get sorted out yeah so when does heaven begin what is heaven what is the what is your definition of heaven I think for most Adventists that I've met they were only express it this way it's a better house and the faster car and better neighbors and I think you can get that if you've got enough money here on earth right here you can have paradise right here if you'd if that's what your version of heaven is and I think most people have that version of heaven better house better neighbors faster car everything works nice doesn't get too cold doesn't get too hot is that what your heaven is so desire of Ages 3 3 1 paragraph 3 as through Jesus we enter into rest where do we enter into rest on a reformed life good let's go back to reports radio inter interests 911 ok as through Jesus we enter into rest at 911 heaven begins here we respond to his invitation come lone of me and in thus coming we begin the life eternal ok so you think about the implications of that when you get to heaven has your nature been changed of course by when you get to heaven you can't go to heaven with a bad nature yeah your nature has been transformed when you get to heaven so if you're going to say that through Jesus we enter into rest and rest is 911 and she says heaven begins there what must have happened there must have been the transformation of nature and people are teaching if you're going to go with Romans 7 that there is not a transformation at baptism the transformation happens at the end of your journey not at the beginning that is just plain wrong we respond to his invitation come learn of me oh when I say it's plain wrong many of us believe this and you can demonstrate that because we have a wrong understanding of what heaven is because we say can't wait to get to heaven I hear this all the time I'm sure you hear it all the time can't wait to get to heaven when all the problems get resolved and sorted out and someone tell me this is what Heaven's like I don't want to go and my response was Amen don't go because it's like this in heaven and if you don't like it now God won't even let you go so you're not miserable there if you're miserable now in His mercy run it you go it's not punishment otherwise clean you don't get you don't get into heaven because of you don't not get into heaven because of punishment some some merciful God that won't let you go in we respond to the invitation come learn of me and in thus coming we begin the life eternal here on earth this is another reason why I've said studiously from the very beginning let's take the house the body and put it to one side for the moment because most people are going to bring the body into this thing and say you can't begin heaven until when second Advent when you get a new body and playing that richness that just does not work and I try to show that simply the of lasting gospel is justification sanctification and glorification glorification is what the finishing touches of immortality but the first angels message says what fear God give Him glory the second step is glory and saying glory comes in two phases step one which is a second step and step two or part two which is the third I'm doing that not doing that justice justification sanctification glorification spare God give him glory for the hour of his judgment has come góra fication is in two steps the glorification that we're experiencing and don't mean just in the sense of the first angel is this one I've put it like this internal or spiritual and if we believe this is fake this is not real it's all connected with your physical body it's all gonna get sorted out here you'll never arrive there because you haven't experienced a rest here at this step where it where does this happen glorification it's 911 rival the second angel or you're gonna get here is the new body that's all that happens here there's nothing more well but there might be a little bit more about earthiness I just want to finish the passage then well people can ask ask questions or make some comment heaven is a ceaseless approaching to God through Christ I think that's a really good definition of heaven heaven has just been with Jesus the longer we are in the heavenly bliss the more and still more of glory will be open to us I don't know why people want to be the levites I've heard this over and over again I mean we want to be in heaven as long as you can because Levites are not in heaven we should be in heaven now and we've been there longer than they have it's sheer joy and bliss the longer you're in heaven in the heavenly place the more and still more glory will be open to us and the more we know of God the more intense will be our happiness as we walk with Jesus in this life we may be filled with his love satisfied with his presence all that human nature can bear we may receive here but what is that compared with the Hereafter there are they before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in his temple and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them they shall hunger no more neither thirst any more neither shall the Sun light on them nor any heat for the lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them shall lead them in unto living fountains of water and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes I'm saying if you read a statement like that without understanding the reformed line I don't think it means much it can't have the impact that God wants it to do to transform a person's life questions comments sisters similar specific meaning it says here and I agree with it that heaven begins at 911 how would you be able to rectify when the other movement is saying that the that midnight is the matter I think it's being taught here as well from why understood I don't notice it's changed recently about midnight is the marriage and let the tares and the wheat grow together until the harvest so it might be so hard based in so when both are growing together both the wheat and the tares how can there be a heaven and then can that still when you still have heavens if there's tears there still I mean there's still chairs at the moment can you still have the kingdom of Dori when they stairs they you answer that question can you have the kingdom of glory when there's tears around can you have that I believe it's possible yeah so the kingdom of glory is heaven so you can have them we have heaven when they stands around so you agree you've altered your own question I wouldn't make this point harvest is not a midnight offenses before midnight because the tests have to be dealt with before is that going to mean I just want to point out and in the middle of the paragraph said all that human nature can bear we will may receive here so oh what human nature can bear from heaven we already received here but it's nothing compared to what the what comes after you know yes we make a big deal about midnight rightly so but midnight we haven't even gone through a Sunday long experience we haven't gone through Jacob time of trouble there's a lot more to be dealt with here and we have to bear a lot more than we're ever gonna bear at midnight still and that's long before we meet Christ face to face literally sister Kathleen we're told that we could have a little bit of heaven in our own homes if we conduct our homes the way they're supposed to be conducted so it's it's our it's our relationship with God and how we serve Him as far as how much heaven we're we have in our homes amen and we try to discuss that yesterday worship you know about the first rule is do unto others as you would have them to do unto you it's just to be nice to one another it costs us nothing to be nice and I think when Ellen White talks about heaven in our homes just about being nice to each other so let me just summarize got four minutes to summarize what with what what hopefully I've tried to bring across over this trimester the purpose of a reform line is to transform us we get that from Ezekiel 37 this person that was bones that transfers into a human being and the gets becomes a living soul is Eve it's a symbolic symbol of Eve because she's a bone taken out of the rib of Adam this is us the bride makes herself ready revelation 19:7 and eight the cry the bride is ready at nine eleven everything sorted out by then and that's all under the work or administration of the first angel there's not a sequential work that's going on in our message in our reformed life there hasn't been in many of the other reform lines as we review them in more detail we see that this combining work has always been there and if we don't understand this work of combining we end up making many mistakes we focused a lot about the threefold nature of a human being and then white describes it as the mind the moral and the lower powers our problem is people before Christ is the we're here the lower powers have taken the ascendancy and we're out of control but we've been deceived that we don't have within us the ability to live ordered lives we do and God expects us even though it's a small amount in the whole scale of salvation he expects us to do our part and our part is to put our will into action to stop living under the control of the lower passions we can do that in our own human strength but it's miserable going doing that that you have to perform correctly we do that more often not through wrong motivation Christ comes in and he says the requirements that I want you to follow in this marriage not only a fair and reasonable but I'll make you happy performing those tasks make you happy being with me sounds like a small thing but it's everything to us it's what makes life worth living this is salvation when he transforms that lower nature subdues it makes us balanced again our whole being becomes transformed we've been deceived by Satan to say that this cannot happen because we've had repeated examples in our own life and then the lives of others that it just doesn't work and so we've begun to think that our promises our resolutions are like ropes of sand and what we need to understand is a true force of the will and the White has complex statements that seem to be at variance with that and hence we need to take those difficult passages in combination with the easier passages and place them on the line to try and understand how we're supposed to deal with those things we're spoken about the conscience the conscience works perfectly well the problem with the conscience is bad information in fact most of the passages that you'll read here on this sheet here where you have to put your will on the side of God's will is all about information if you can conceptualize it that way and you've read through those passages it's all about information God is really merciful and good he doesn't expect us to be burdened by our past lives and all the harm and damage that we've received he's willing to blot all of her out and not hold you accountable for any of that but Satan wants to keep reminding you of your past behavior when you're a teenager or before you came to Christ whenever that was in Christ is willing more than willing to say he'll bear all of that and it should free us from a lot of mental anguish that we have becomes a manager manageable problem from all we have to do is just deal with one event at a time during this trimester I've seamlessly gone from the moral framework to a prophetic framework but I want us to understand when it comes to the conscience this is not an issue of a damaged conscience in respect to morality it's prophecy the sins that we're dealing with and the sins of our fathers which are prophetic sins the testing that we're being asked to address and deal with our prophetic tests as those tests those truths come to us that they have within them and this is the mystery of godliness the ability to change our very nature and not only to make us do good because we're doing good anyway but it's hopefully if we were willing to participate in it to enjoy doing good so that we can really experience heaven here purpose of 144,000 is not to have individual perfect people that's happened many many times he wants us to be a unified people but we can only be unified on certain things we don't have to agree on everything God never expects us expects that of us because we read that yes they were all different he wants us to unify on these prophetic truths not on moral truths because on moral truths we unify with whom the government the state the world the atheists anybody Buddhists anybody on morality we all agree the thing to bring this together is prophecy that's what unifies and if we're willing become so absorbed in studying these messages these truths we will find that unity it will in gross our minds and I really want to encourage you though they're people who see it as a sign of strength not to come to class not to even physically be here when they have the ability and the means to come to class or they refuse to watch videos thinking that this is some kind of learning that they have to receive for a man and they're not willing to do that we've discussed at length that you've got the voice of God and you've got the voice of man and when the Bible and spirit prophesy talk about ceasing from man it's not talking about ceasing from this movement because this movement is a symbol of God this is the voice of God when he says see she for a man it means see she from wrong theology which is under the umbrella of the Omega that you can be saved by being moral let's pray our Heavenly Father we want to thank you for your goodness and mercy Lord continue to be with us and bless us as we must realize that we have only begun to scratch the surface heaven is a ceaseless approaching to Christ and exhaust this theme that we will never fully comprehend not only here but even in eternity well as we see the reality that you want us to experience here today help us to hold true to the foundational messages that you have been giving to your people for decades now Lord we're just on the borders of eternity may each of us strive with all of our might to be part of that number part of the 144,000 we all have open before us the ability and the calling to be part of that number be with us and bless us father that this may be a living reality in our experience we pray in Jesus his name I mean