(11-14-17) - System & Individual - (LNlnkCPFv9Y)

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Publish Date: 11/14/2017
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Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (11-14-17) - System & Individual-LNlnkCPFv9Y
YouTube ID: LNlnkCPFv9Y

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we spoke yesterday about why palled writings are difficult and identified a few points of why that is so one of them is that he identifies that the existing church lady SIA is lost and undone they contended by God under sin Romans chapter 3 verse 9 and which we've looked at a few time and I think it's Romans 11 somewhere between 20 and 28 somewhere around there there's a there's a short passage that he addresses that issue it's a it's a parallel passage to that to the Romans 3 1 so that's the first point that people struggle with in his history and therefore we find that will struggle with the same thing in our history Romans 11 32 to understand that principle you need to have the concept of the idea that in Revelation 2 and 3 you have the seven churches that begin with Ephesus and end with Leigh the seer 1132 Romans 1132 but we're not going to read that this is the history of the Christian Church Evangelos chanting most Adventists think that this is just a dispensation of the Christian Church from its inception to its end and they don't realize that this is a repeating pattern so unless you see that much of the theology of or the argument that Paul is going to develop and that we are going to develop don't have any basis don't make any sense so what I'm saying is that this is not the original pattern to these seven churches this already happened before so if I just short on that and make it like this there's already been seven churches before this Ephesus and laid the seer and in fact this is one of our arguments that we have to show that the history of Christ is repeating in our generation because ancient Israel here this is a line of ancient Israel I put the Jews or the Hebrews they begin at Ephesus the receiving of the law by Moses at Mount Sinai and he ends would later see the history of the church who's been run by Caiaphas that whole Sanhedrin structure and what that church is in existence later see the church is going to be brought under judgment the Lord is going to raise up a new church and he's going to use the same people it's the same people same church but it's going to have this separation so these two churches are coexisting at the same time and then we run through this history and now we're in our own history and we're going to have the same problem we're going to go through seven churches right from Ephesus to lay the seer and there are two churches existing at the same time without their understanding this doesn't make any sense the whole argument that Paul develops that days then the church and asked the church to different churches doesn't make any sense this can't this issue keeps on tripping people up because if you do that kind of thinking people fall into the trap to say old are we saying that the church is Babylon and obviously we're not you have to build a number of lines to understand that concept idea and we were talking about Zachariah we've already left the system it's not about geography it's not about membership where your name which book your name is in in the literal sense we have left the practices and the mindset of Adventism the doctrines that they hold to and we've come out and we're asking or we're about to ask because that's the context of this the Levites to come out as well my understanding is this call here is for the Levite it's not a reference to a continued work that we're doing to pull out priests from the structure it's a specific call to the Levites that's what that context is so if you don't understand that you can have two churches running parallel to one another you're going to struggle for every other day with this because it looks like we're calling the church Babylon does anybody have any issues or questions on that or comments that they want to add to so little time you're showing after the Christian era yes when you start doing this it starts having implications when you get to this history here this latest year if you think about later seer being God's people it's God's church if we mark it say from 1844 depends on how you want to give up that line is that Church good or bad I'm saying it has to be good because God's church is the apple of his eye it's a good church but when you get so later see here it starts off being good if I can give it some history here I'll put Alpha and Omega and I'll put emphasis here so it's somewhere in between it starts off being God's church it's all that he's got whether it's the effective in its theology or not isn't the issue but as time develops and you get to the end where they the see is going to run its course it's now not fit for purpose and so God is going to raise up a new church so there's this interaction that here we're not trying to say lay this event in and of itself is bad because what is later see a mean so it's not only the people who are judged it's also the people that bring judgment it's not necessarily negative the people that bring judgment so maybe I didn't fully answer your question or your comment in it okay so if you can understand this concept then when you go into the book of Esther people struggle with the book of Esther I'm not sure why there's such a struggle with it I understand it there's some difficulties on dates and they're jumping through hoops and things not running sequentially but the whole principle the whole concept of Esther is about what it's two churches it's a story about two churches and one King if you want to take it morally it's a sordid story of rebellion and adultery by whom who's who's in rebellion and committing adultery Esther is Esther's doing all that wickedness Vashti is there nothing wrong except this is a beta husband when she's told to do something so if you if you get caught up in the morality of that story you just don't understand the point it's an enacted parable and if you if you don't see that nothing makes sense if you're a prophet are you allowed to marry a woman of whoredom you're forbidden from doing that so how do you get a prophet to doing that kind of behavior how do you address that how do you understand that because we all know that's an enacted parable I mean the context is you know he's explicit about that but when it comes to stories it's ingrained in us that these are moral stories I'm going to say what have we said but what have I said morality is when you when you approach the scripture how do you think those two morality and prophecy so I've conceptualized it in this way surface treasure that even a child can understand is morality hidden treasure is prophecy you have to dig into those stories and you have to put aside all your prejudices and your preconceived ideas to understand that it's a parable that's being discussed and what's catching our movement today by surprise is that either we may to some degree have been come comfortable that these are all parables but we ourselves are a parable and that's what's disturbing people when we start identifying ourselves as the high priest as Christ and people want to take that literally as the exaltation of man they don't understand how parables work Jesus his whole ministry his whole life was a parable yeah it was an enacted parable how things are supposed to operate and that's what our lives are supposed to be and to manipulate and I'm gonna say no maybe I shouldn't say deliberately because some people aren't doing it literally but not to understand that what we're talking about is all power bawls means you don't understand this message properly sister Jamila 17 wherefore can come out from among them and be separate saith the Lord and touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you when we've been taught that what we will be learning that we're supposed to call out the the others from out of the church is that the call to separate yourselves from what first from what what does the verse say so what is the unclean thing you're gonna if you're going to make an application like you just have then you've got to define what the unclean thing is how he'll change anybody else that's how I would approach that it's not saying the church it's unclean in some sense that leads to become Babylon in that way it's the doctrines that are unclean you need to separate from those doctrines so we tackled that issue about why else did we tackle yesterday what else is difficult about his writings okay so before we did the individual and the group we discuss the issue where is poor in a sequential line in our history where would he be he's at Sunday law we all understand that he comes in a t-34 now he's the the apostle to the Gentiles but what is he still doing he's still going to the Jews and trying to help them we can't be doing that can we in our line so how's he managing to do that how can he write books to the Hebrews during the Sunday law period English can't answer the questions there we understand the problem yeah can everybody see the dilemma that if you if you haven't noticed it before what they're dead ulema is he's doing things out of sequence he's saying there's still probation for the Jews after a t-34 and we say from the Sunday Lord there is no probation for adventism period so someone's wrong and unless you're able to divide the word of God correctly and you're a regular Adventist you'll come to the conclusion of what the sunday law of course you're going to the world but you're still got time to save even if it's some Adventists but you opportunities the opportunities you can go to all the Adventists still and you can pull them out of the fire if they're willing to do that we know some wouldn't but some would that's why Adventists have developed this theology you know we complain that they've got apostate Protestantism and the Catholic counter-reformation through all of this staff and we make them into evil people but the scriptures and lmy it kind of funnels you down that road I think and if you'd if you don't understand how the rules properly how history is repeating how these lines work it becomes problematic anybody got any comment on that not so the last point that we tackled he's got this issue about the church or the system or the structure and the individual there's this tension between the two and the problem is he's going to call both of them old a new covenant and this is the one that I think is I'm finding it difficult to understand I think most of people in the movement are struggling with this issue because he'll jump in and out in the same story sometimes and he weaves them together and Alan white does the same she just reinforces his way of thinking and we have to carefully unpick how we go about addressing this issue so one of the easiest ones to do is this one here when you think about the individual because when you do this you can take the individual take him out a reformed out of a reformed line and just deal with it morally and when you do that we're on comfortable ground we think we've got some misconceptions I think about how personal salvation works but if you do that you know it's really clearly straightforward your rival runs our old covenant or a new covenant but the problem with that is I'm not sure that we all understand what those symbols or terms mean if you're under old or under new so then if anybody's thought about it since yesterday has got some thoughts or opinions which may be and then way expressing it or different to the way that I expressed it yesterday that it was got any opinion we should have an opinion about that Old Covenant and the New Covenant we shoot under we should have even if you're wrong you should have some opinion about it because we're all supposed to be under a new covenant aren't we yeah these are familiar passages that we've had to Christians have to deal with all the time all the new covenant I think no brother okay part of the question so old a new covenant and at an individual level what do we understand that to mean you're under the old or under the new covenant how we do it how would you express that brother Richard and then Nathan are you under our new covenant you you're under New Covenant what's the old covenant okay so you just done what I did you already conceptualize it that way before yes that did I really understand it okay no but that's the way I thought I understood it you know there's more circus I guess but I had a question a long time ago there's no not really there is a difference but between the old and new covenant in terms of you know before Christ and after Christ that when they had the sacrificial system and you know it was still required more so the same thing you know you had to bring the sacrifice you know with a contrite heart and a desire to have your sins covered or move in cease from your sin which is the same thing afterwards you know only back in and sacrifice themselves so could you clarify a little bit more okay so you feel pretty vague about the whole thing which makes it difficult but what you did within about the first few words is you merge the individual with the system because as soon as you say before Christ and after Christ if you take that on an individual level you're saying everybody as an individual before Christ has an Old Covenant experience and you're going to define it by where the law is placed in your heart then everybody before Christ was dead no one could ever have made it and we have abundant evidence that that's not true you know we have characters job Enoch Daniel Jonathan we have people who you know made it in the sense of having a proper functioning relationship with God so if you're going to do before Christ after Christ I'm saying you're now into this issue of the system and so part of your difficulties is separate in the two issues because Paul in Hebrews eight that we read it says the old is waxing old and then if you said quite says it that way or the former is waxing old so what is their form of this vaccine old it can't be on an individual level because if that were the case that means everybody after Christ by default is saved and everybody before Christ by default is lost so Paul's problem he's trying to explain to us how you jump out of lay the seer into Ephesus that's one issue the system and how that impacts an individual and even though he's going to use the same terms and we use the same terms it becomes a thorny issue to separate the two brother Bob I can't read that sorry the day lives didn't matter whether you were at after Adam in your Old Testament the New Testament the difference between the old the New Covenant is is whether you are going to try to get yourself right with God by yourself or whether you're going to allow him to work with you to do a work that you can't do by yourself so I see that a person the Old Testament can have this new covenant experience and obviously in order to do that it all did it all from from one end to the other has to be by faith and I don't think I just see it that you can the Old Covenant is you trying to do stuff in your own strength that's you if you standing up like like the Jews of old you know one thing one though as an example when the commandments were given to them and they said all of the Lord says we will do you know but in their own strength you can't keep it okay so you're videobut you've addressed this issue here but Paul has to deal with two things then he has to juggle them and move forward and that's what we're required to do and we're struggling with this in our movement so we've addressed this I'm saying in a simple fashion what this experience is that you have a mind you have a heart you have a mouth and you have a belly so I'm saying these are equal the heart is the belly and the mouth is the mind went to desire of Ages chapter 50 but it was a 450 something 55 what we discussed that yesterday and even though we maybe we didn't get the the punchline of that the reason I wanted to go there she says explicitly in that two paragraphs I think it is that the way information comes to a person first it has to come into their mind and then it goes into their heart it's always a two-step process they can't be the other way round there's a sequence and this physical analogy little goes through the mouth into the belly you can't bypass it it has to go that way that's what we teach in Ezekiel of Revelation Jeremih it's the same thing that's what's been brought to view there and she says he has to come here and first here the problem is not with the mind the problem isn't with the mouth the problems always here she says if it was her simple to give truths and just put it into the mind and that was all you needed to do there wouldn't be any obstacle to the gospel there won't be any problem because it's easy to sit everybody only do down here and explain things away so if I said 1838 a hundred times everybody would get it and we'd all be saved it would all be saved if it was that simple but now you have to get 1838 and put it into your heart and that's what the problem is half of you will and half of you won't that's what the New Covenant experiences I'm saying the Old Covenant is when you have it in your mind having eyes having ears but you do not see you do not hear the New Covenant is when this part of the heart is cut away and the truth is able to the seed the food is able to go from your mouth into your belly and then it begins to do its work sister to Mina sister similar you know if you see a nice beautiful chiastic structure I think that looks really great if you see any piece of information and if you see a beautiful building it all looks nice our message looks nice if you want to go specifically you could look at revelation 10 and it was sweet in the mouth that particular experience that we're talking about is that the message that they had pre 1840 that's now under attack that people are questioning when someone works out let me show you that it's the true message everybody has a siren they say yep we've confirmed that it's correct and that we're all having a beautiful experience that's how I understand revelation 10 is sweet in the mouth experience there at the bitter experience they make a mistake 1844 I know I thought I could be wrong but my understanding is when you go to Ezekiel and revelation Ezekiel's bitterness has got nothing to do with mistakes he didn't make any mistakes his bitterness is that he now has to go to a people who were going to reject him and he's going to have to fight his bitterness he doesn't want to do the job that the Lord has instructed him to do the bitterness that John is experiencing is the issue of the disappointment for Ezekiel it is if if the Millerites were living in an island in or was no one against them and they didn't they had done everything that they had done and they said Jesus is about to come in October and no one had mocked him or anything and he didn't come I think they would have they would have had a bitter experience they don't need people to make their experience bitter their bitterness is internal it's their own issue but Ezekiel's bitterness is another one and if you put both of them together have or we should be experienced a double bitterness people don't want to be rejected by the church they don't be ostracized and called names of whatever it is in Ezekiel we normally make this demand there's a lot of them in us and we don't want to have this internal fight because it's bitter when you have to start addressing people who are your friends who you've walked with for a number of years you have to start addressing them it's not pleasant so people have their own thoughts that's how I've understood Ezekiel in and John real quite today so this system I'm not I do I didn't want to go into a great amount of detail about this but if you don't understand that the old and new covenant is is relative to systems then you're going to be stuck on this issue and it's all predicated upon the fact that the Jews run through their seven churches and the Christians run through their seven churches and they overlap so a phrase that's that we've used in the recent past is parallel kingdoms so if you've heard a phrase called parallel kingdoms or if you've heard a phrase right things running concurrently not sequentially both those phrases are all teaching the same thing that two things are happening at the same time and as I say this is nothing new the issue about parallel kingdoms you know has been spoken about in Revelation 3 Daniel 11 where we have the transition from the United States to the United Nations as if that was some new thing that they're going to transition one from another concurrently they're not going to be the step change that that shouldn't be anything new because we've been teaching about the joining of the two sticks in that fashion how many years now at least two years maybe longer for a long while the seven churches representing the history of Christianity and the history of the Jews I think before 2001 know why for almost twenty years we've known that all I'm doing is not reinventing the wheel I'm not these are not new things I'm just what I'm trying to do is just add clarity to some people who haven't understood what's being taught when I look back at that particular prophetic logic that you're building your model on I remember that when we begin to teach that the seven churches represented the history of the Jews in the history of the Christian Church the point if I go into my room notes the point where I always began because I think the logic is there if you first show that the light that Miller had was on the seals the trumpets in the churches and in so doing then you show that the Millerites understood a distinction between the external the seals and the internal the churches so what I'm saying is the line of the tribe of Judah when he was teaching us that Ephesus and Laodicea are contemporary churches that he also in order to get us there taught us about internal-external so now here 20 years later when we're starting to take this piece of information and use it to bring out a light that's testing people it's once again includes the concept of internal/external I'm understanding the internal being the guest and the external being the bride and in the logic that you're putting out and one of your anchors for all this is layer this D and F is and I'm saying that when the line of the tribe of juda open that study up that's where he opened up internal and external also so it's you can see his hand in it if you're willing to see so if you don't see this a sister to me you had your hand up but why the cam sorry talking about be older than you how would you confront first John to eight again a new commandment I write on T which sorry brushed on to seven brethren I write no new commandment on T but an old commandment which he have had from the beginning the old commandment is the word which he occurred on the beginning so that was back then when you're talking about anybody got any comments first John T seven first John - seven everybody got any comment on that I really out again brethren I write no new commandment unto but an old commandment which he had from the beginning the old commandment is the word which he have heard from the beginning again the new commandment are write unto you which thing is true in him and in you because the darkness is past and the true light now shine earth he that saith he's in the light and hated his brother is in darkness even until now I'm just gonna cop out of that one because I have no idea what passage really means yeah I understand it's a condition I could say that in a generic sense but to actually break down the verse and explain it properly so I'm pretty sure it's connected to this issue but to go into the detail of it I'd have to spend some time anybody else got any comments on that sister Alyssa the conditions by which eternal life may be gained are the same as under the old perfect the old perfect obedience under the Old Covenant there are many offenses sumptuous character for which there was no atonement specified by law in the new and better covenant the crisis fulfilled the law for transgressors of law if they receive him by faith as a personal Savior as many as received him to then give the power and become the sons of God mercy and forgiveness are the same reward of all who come to Christ trusting in his merits to take away their sins in the better covenant we are cleansed from sin 9:30 1.8 and that's Hebrews verse 5 to 13 okay so you have this system this church that is old and it's waxing as you say in Hebrews it's waxing old and he's comparing that to the new so what is that old and what is the new in verse 13 talking about covenant that's right the heart sort of covering it in his eyes this mission meta to was talking about that the the new is the old so where I read it is that that would mean that we should still have it in our minds because our old ways which in the the Old Covenant was written upon the the mind it was on the heart as well I see this but according to your when you say what he's both I understood the individual words that you said by didn't understand a connective thorn so what I'm understanding from what you're teaching is that the old is the old covenant was written upon the mind okay and the new is is on the heart but what were just okay when that seats in the high can't be just in the heart because desire of Ages four five five says the same thing and it says in Hebrews 8:10 I will write to put my laws into their mind and write them in their heart has to be both in a new covenant because it has to go through the mind into the heart it has to it has to do that yeah just to see what you just say verse 13 the New Covenant is 1989 but-but-but what is the new one and what is the old one so we'll put a date to it time of the a connected opportunity me manage this is this this Christ symbolizing the finishing work that he's doing on the process because nothing wrong with the old it was the people nothing Covenant itself did he just symbolize innocence of the finish and work and understanding this is Decimus making us perfect so to speak by the Tyla but it kind of seems like the context of this is the the system the Covenant system and not necessarily the old and new covenant individuality so this would be successive emphasis we're walking into Ephesus from from from from later this year in that he says a new covenant Ephesus he hath made the first old lay the seer now that which decayeth and waxeth old lady seer is ready to vanish away so I'm saying that this here verse 13 just specifically his but I'm not saying right on other verses in that passage this is the subject of this is he sister - this is lady seer in Ephesus when he says in verse 13 but in verse 10 what's he talking about because he's not talking about the system in verse 10 so in verse 10 he's talking about the individual when he verse 13 is talking about a system that's what I'm suggesting does anybody see that any differently and we you see that anyone else see it differently than what how I'm proposing so if I'm gonna put verse ten here because this causes you problems are hopefully going to show that in me verse 10 is the individual verse 13 is the system and he's just squashed him together and we're our job is to break them apart to try and understand what's going on any comments on that some of the must had some objection I can't explain maybe in one or two sentence again okay why is verse 13 structure and not individual in that he saith the New Covenant he has made the first old now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away so let's put a line here we'll go without the Jeff suggestion that this is 1989 we'll call it the time at the end we'll take out 1989 because this is Paul Paul doesn't have 1989 B has a time at the end so what's he saying in verse 13 how would you read verse 13 we're going to put it on the line okay and the old one is what though what's going to happen to it okay so I'm going to put old here and they're gonna put new here now I know there's an overlap because even the wording shows you there's an overlap because it says a new covenant had he made the first make the first old now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish wait decay of me rotting so it's progressively getting back from bad to worse and it's ready to vanish but he hasn't vanished away yet so you can see an overlap below and I'm taking the overlap out and I'm just not going to splice them you agree with that you okay with that so if we're going to go back now into verse ten what is verse ten say we're okay we're going to tackle divert we're going to tackle that he has to have significant weight so you're saying that he's gonna he's going to corporately whitewash everybody that's all I'm saying I understand he's making a covenant with with the group of people verse 10 he's talking about the individual world so if you - if you could do this brother Jonathan you would have a circumcised heart here and here you don't have a circumcised heart agree with that so it's saying that if you're into this system which is still in the existence because the new one isn't there yet you're stuck in this situation you don't have a choice because you you're under the old if you join them together okay okay yeah okay okay and that caused these problems because it in the old however far you're going to go back into old we'll go back to Daniel for sure Daniel's in the old system is he got a new heart or an old heart a new easy under older New Covenant so that's the problem that you're facing if you're saying that this verse thirteen is an individual work not a system system level it you get you doesn't work because Daniels over here in the old how DJ I'm sorry that I'm going to do this and I don't know that I can do it right okay the if you have the time of the end up there and then you have put October 22nd because of probation for Miller right history right so from the time of the end to the close of probation the oldest vanishing away right and in he's going to establish that covenant with the new over a period of time but it's put in place at the close of probation October 22nd 1844 is that you following that logic I find it interesting that Hebrews 813 is lining up with the same message of Daniel 813 because the question in Daniel 8 13 is how long shall be the vision concerning the daily and the transgression of desolation and that comes to 1844 it's talking about the trampling down that comes to an end in 1844 and here's Hebrews 8 13 teaching a parallel truth but I know that isn't where you were doing anybody got comments we spoke weeks ago now that the church triumphant isn't doesn't it get created at midnight so everybody needs to be comfortable with that I'm making the assertion that when you go to the first chapters in Matthew and Luke you see a man raised up John the Baptist and he's gonna baptize you and he's not baptizing you into a philosophy or into a message and we've taught that for a long time did you get baptized into this message and I think we've conceptualized that's what Johnny's doing and I'm saying Johnny's baptizing you into Ephesus so done if anybody has any problem with that because if you have a problem with that then you wouldn't agree that it's a time at the end you can't have it as being 1989 you have to shuffle it over and change that day because if this is the old and then we're going to make that 1989 a time at the end this is the new and the overlap is quite expensive and you've ever really okay with that you're getting baptized into a church and the reason why people object to that is because there's only seven churches this is only seven churches what are you going to do and it sounds like a call that Adventism is Babylon but John is a is baptizing you into Ephesus and what are these churches anyway you know he talked about Ephesus Smyrna what worry what is that what does that mean so it's not different churches that this from dispensation or experiences different experiences and we have to conceptualize that this Church Adventism is going through two experiences at the same time one is death and one is life could you just read that passage again because ideals once phrase that what you pick that you said I wanted to pick up from that so we understand that hold on you this one here we'll come back to the individual level it doesn't make any difference it's all about it's all about the law of billions now people are going to use that argument to say that the gospel is to do with the morality and I'm going to use that that very passage that very logic to say it's got nothing to do with morality so I'm not going to thrash out the logic of that but so that we're all away everybody knows it's all about law Ten Commandments that that's a component of this issue but I'm saying just reading that passage it by definition means it's nothing to do with morality and people are going to say by definition it's got to do with the morality so each of us needs to work that out in their own mind in their own thought processes let's go ahead if you'd might I didn't know if he's gonna money will carry on okay they're perfect obedience under the Old Covenant there were many offenses of a daring presumptuous character for which there was no atonement specified by Allah let's stop there everybody'd everybody understand what that said so here you are oh you don't someone someone rephrase that in plain English unforgivable that makes ain't so read that sentence again and see if you can see that brother Jonathan so I'm living 2,000 years ago and I get to a fight with somebody that I killed them can I just say I'm sorry I'll take a LAN and then sort all the problem out no there is no provision in the law if you do things deliberately if you saw someone if you saw 50 dollars on the table no one's looking and you steal that you can't say sorry and expect this and expect the system to work its way through and everything's ok whatever the crime is for that robbery there's no forgiveness for that to the sacrificial ceremonial system I'm not sure if people realize that right like they killed seven people if we if we don't understand this whole thing as parables it becomes a dark chapter in the history of humanity if we don't understand at least parables so the first thing I want to say is that passage clearly says under the old system - under the old let me put old here old and new under the old there is no forgiveness for presumptuous sin deliberate premeditated so if you accidentally kill somebody he didn't see them then you can sort that out but if you did it maliciously there's no forgiveness of that scene so mercy and forgiveness are the reward of all who come to Christ trusting in his merits to take away their sins in the better covenant we are cleansed from sin so there's a number of things in that passage but she says that old there's no forgiveness for presumptuous sin brother time where you see the merchant well if I remember I can't remember how we started but wasn't the first bit individual the whole thing but I vaguely remember it being individual and now she's talking about this new better covenant so it would be with that that sin happened so yeah she's merging the two together because you're talking about under the old system this this and this and then she talked about the individual experience that God wants people to have so under the old is there any forgiveness for presumptuous thing no under new is there any forgiveness for presumptuous thing yeah okay what what do you do is someone like David who maybe we don't you know if this is just a alcohol whatever David killed you're right Uriah and it was obviously premeditated in all senses and and he never suffered I guess the punishment was on half of the child but anyway so we go with his scene you say how comes he didn't get dealt with because he can't under the Old Covenant system he can't be forgiven yeah yeah so how do you resolve this issue take this child out he just gets forgiven it's the same thing that you're bringing up with this system an individual those things are very important for us to conceptualize are not not stunned so even though he was are not the Old Covenant he by experience was having a new covenant so let me ask you this question photographer so everyone was just too scared to kill David even though he should have been killed for his sin no but under in the system wise he should have died in nobody and nobody would do it but under the new New Covenant but individually sorry so that under the Covenant in the system nobody would kill him even though he should have been under the new individual he obviously had the grace you know because you have Psalms 51 he asked her this new heart and everything and so he has he shows that even in the Old Covenant system there's the new heart that you can have at what level that's individual individual taste it wasn't the people that to kill a bit what it wasn't the people that refuse to kill David isn't it that the Prophet said specifically to David though shall not die I wasn't he a mod piece for God so if God had made the pronouncement that David should have died is it that I'm understanding you to say them the people would have rebelled against God and said no we can't kill David so I did that answers that question or I wasn't too worried about that issue why they did or didn't say he didn't make a provision he didn't say if you murdered someone you can just say sorry and it will be okay he just doesn't have those rules so now I'm going to asked another question at a system level the old says war and under the new a system level okay we're at insist this here under system one what's the difference between the old and the new elder Jack's sister Lisa in Hebrews six which I would think is our history in verse four it says where it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted the of the heavenly gift I suppose that's us here in this room and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come if they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance scenes they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to open shame so I'm not so sure the system's changed let me rephrase that let me not not refrain let me ask the question again now the old system says if you do any presumptuous sin you can't there's no forgiveness to that so I'm asking what is the new system what's the difference between the old system and the new system system you're saying brother Tyler yes it's this is this recurring theme that we have to juggle a number of things in our minds so the first point I want us to see is this a system level there is no difference and what you and I have been doing is we've been hiding under this corporate umbrella and doing all manner of evil if you want to I don't want to I'm not sure if these little maybe it's not even our application with our secret chambers because we're under the chamber of Adventism and we think we can get away with murder and you can't whether you realize it or not because judgment against your evil works hasn't been executed yet you think because you're under this new covenant everything's okay and you can do what you want so I want to make the point that there's no difference between this system and this system there's a difference here at the individual level but at corporate level there isn't any different sisters and Lissa no this is despair prophecy I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and their iniquities I will remember no more all who humble their hearts confessing their sins will find mercy and grace and assurance has God in showing mercy to the sinner ceased to be just as he dishonored his holy law God is true he changes not okay you tell me what that passage means in relation to what we've just said first of all did they agree or disagree with what we've said why I couldn't make the mistake so well how you saying it has to agree because I don't know you've read that passage what you're saying that passage means in relationship to what we've said you read the passage it's your passage not mine you tell me what you were trying to teach us from that passage what level were you one were you talking like this you can't say in a way both cause if he's both and then I'm gonna say it's both and then we'll apply it okay so you can't do that I want us to be clear because this is the problem that we're confronted with the individual makes up the corporate or the house so what we have this idea that if you get enough of us then we have a house and we're going to build that theology on where two are gathered I will be with them if you use that theology this this model that Paul has gets destroyed because you then end up merging that Ark and the builders they're all one debry than the guests they're all one I'm saying the way these parables are laid out is they're separate if we read that passage that sounds to me like the way you were applying it that this is not correct under the new system the rules change and that's what's given us the license to do personal sin because we think we're under a new system that allows sin presumptuous sin premeditated sin to flourish and God just turns a blind eye to it and says it's okay just say sorry and it'll all be okay now and the individual level we address the issue of pour of David that's something different but at a system level it doesn't work out that way the rules are the same and if you this is another example I'm saying is if you don't get the structure right you get spirit of prophecy quotes and you get away with murder by applying those passages in a in an incorrect framework or context sister test did I think brother Tyler oh no brother test Luke first time so if you're gonna say that you're gonna say the ark is the carpenter neither can the system run through the logic again so wisely gonna die okay so you go to a new system if David was living in the New Covenant what should have happened to him because you said the laws applied that way so what should happen under the New Covenant yeah after Christ after at the time of the end here's the new if you're here and you're David what should happen to you now which law the Mosaic law you mean you mean like Moses is law or the festival law because Moses because Moses is law is it is different is combines more than okay so your question is we don't why can't we stone people now Oh blessed blessed properly because I think this is gonna be a bit longer clarification on system what what we say in the system is I'm saying it's the ark it's the corporate movement its Ephesus or later seer so Church and the church he's not individuals the church is a structure and we're individuals so if I were to say I mean here we said I want you yes so if I had a house here I'm saying that's the system and here you are a priest and you're working in the house it's two separate things yes yes anybody else had their hand up prophet Anna my question is just for an example and I might come like me give up example I just thought up up and like you're wrong and you can correct me what is the definition of a sin that the system commits and the one that just popped into my head during the whole interaction I didn't have initially as would that be the sins of the fathers that this when the system rejects when the whole system rejects the truth or the prophetic message or whatever it may be that would that be as a definition of a systematic set that's my question anybody yes and our children forever is that the only systematic sin you can that the system can commit because because then you get in the question of what sister test is talking about the individual versus the so we don't have a corporate system that says every man is now free to commit adultery hmm happened on an and an ended that was like on an individual level yeah but now we have a system that says the latter rain is going to happen after the close of probation it's a corporate sin that we've all entered into which in the framework that you're using is the sins of the father father's I don't think there's any moral scene that we could identify that the system is entered into so that is why that distinction in our minds and therefore you have to bring it on to the further the system they seem like in Leviticus four it talks about congregation our sin the entire congregation committed and it could have to be the sins of the father is where Adam and even on that level it would have to be committed to ignorance and not by presumption I understand what you say and I don't understand it because this little picture you draw up there there the house being the structure and the being the priest the house cannot sin it's just can I do anything I know that this point I get your logic why you say while we separate it but on the other side this logic is somehow that's why I say I understand it I'm not saying this is easily Peter says this is hard to understand for the wise and it's so hard to understand if you're wicked you will rest these scriptures to your own destruction it's not to pretend that this is easy that we could just you know come to a class in that for an hour and work it all out because people are rested with the wrestled with this for millennia you know if you think we're going to work it out in an hour-and-a-half class or even even than the trimester did these are really deep issues problems concepts that we need to grapple with and all I'm doing is scratching the surface and trying to lay out some framework for us to explore and if you and I'm saying if you don't explore it in with the correct framework you're never going to come up to a correct answer so all I'm just trying to do here is to say if you don't see that there's two things you're never going to come to a correct answer you'll never be able to address this issue about how this cannot say then this could sin but it's not that simplistic as that other drawn the picture because I could write the picture in another way I could turn that person and put them into it as a stone into that building because if we're trying to teach different things but the simple thing I want to see in this study as to see is there's these things and there's no difference so sister Tess says that in the old system you can kill people when they sin stone them what about in the new system is it the same rules do it view see it's the same rules is the test with different rules okay so sister all I've been saying the same rules so I'm saying it's the same rules but they've been some dynamic changes so if we can just look at that as a parable because if you're going to look at it as literal you're gonna always be stuck in a rut because you're saying it's literally there and we don't do that thing anymore and I'm saying you've got a look at the literal a parable level so it's just a parable a Hebrew woman can marry a heathen King Hebrew will marry he thinking and it's immoral but it's all okay as a pet as a parable so today in this movement if you did some crime would we stone you of course we would you require to stone people the problem is what a stoning look like because you can't take that literal and say we have to literally do it today so my argument is the rules are the same there's no difference you stone here then what you need to do is look at what the symbol of a stone is what the symbol of that person who's being stone is and turn them into parables you take him literally hey Satan would want us to do at the end of the world you come up with some strange theories not only about what's not happening today but what was happening then and also your concept of who and what God is so what would look like strolling today just simply I'm not saying what is the symbols or stone or whatever how do we stone people today they sing is the personal system isn't it then by by going up and presenting what is truth what is Error highlighting truth highlighting what is Error aren't we stone in that system it was the same as well I'm saying yes I agree David and Goliath what's David doing stoning the man what's Daniel to stoning the man this issue of stoning people is a theme that runs through literal Old Testament history which is an enacted parable of endtime prophecy and if we can't look at the Scriptures through those lenses we end up approaching the Bible like a heathen does they cannot recognize this God who will commit genocide on innocent children because they just can't understand what that means so there's some there's been some dynamic changes because the way the church functions if you start talking about stoning in this old system what's been combined in the old system in the Old Covenant you've got Church and what sorry no church and state you've got church and state join together but let the cross church and state are going to now separate separate we could argue that it happened before because they don't have a king and they're under bondage way back if you went to Zedekiah but the church and state has separated and and that's what one of the big dynamic difference is if you don't incorporate that concept that's another issue why you literally don't have the authority to stone people or put them into prison or do whatever the equivalent was but I'm not I don't think that's even a valid argument to approach it by because that's how normal Adventists would approach it a moral surface-level but now we have separation of church and state where it's just the church we don't have authority we need to submit to the higher powers and they take care of all of our dirty work for us they do all the killing and the imprisonment which we used to do in the Old Covenant system now at surface level that's all correct but I'm saying we on this movement should be approaching all of those Old Testament stories every single one as though it was an inactive parable because we've got enough information enough evidence to do that and if we did that I'm saying you're required to stone people and we're scared to stone people because of their sins because their sins today are a dull tree adultery is messing around with things that you're not allowed to it's not natural it's not literal adultery so it could be literal stoning it's not literal man it's not literal women it's all symbolic and those stories are trying to teach us that I don't have any I'm not trying to claim that we we don't jump in and out of these things the only point I was trying to make is that we have to see that there's two things there's enough evidence to see that and I think there's enough evidence to show that the new and the old that there's no difference between the two at a system level you can't be under a new covenant umbrella and say I can do sin today and it's all going to be okay because the system doesn't allow that but at an individual level you've always been allowed that you've always been allowed to do grieve your sin and be forgiven for it that's what David's example is sorry you can't do it under the law today the law hasn't been done away with those mosaic laws and not some kind of addition are they have you how do you see the relationship between the Mosaic law and the Ten Commandments that's right is that how you see that because I've got feeling that you don't you see the Mosaic law is this and the Ten Commandments is this and sister Kathy says they're not that they're actually that one on top of the other it's repeat and enlarge so if you can if you can conceptualize repeat and enlarge I think addresses many of your concerns or many of your questions perhaps not brother Tyler or what some of those things were and like Moses was doing the same thing he shall not kill okay this is what kill this is what my instead if you take out the ceremonial system the books of Moses his whole the purpose of those books is how to keep the Ten Commandments if there's two million people living in the iron age or the bronze age or whatever it is but we don't live in the bronze age anymore so you can't you can't explain the Ten Commandments through that lens so God has to ditch all of that and he has to give us a new framework to understand the ten commandments which is the spirit of prophecy so the spirit prophecy is nothing more than a repeating in large of the Ten Commandments it's to explain how to operate and put into practice the Ten Commandments at corporate level not an individual level a corporate level in this structure how to operate that in the 19th 20th and 21st century at the time of the end I think this whole thing with people taking things literally or looking at it symbolically it applies when we look at the words that Jesus speaks it did say that they were gonna they're gonna kill you thinking they're doing God's service because they're there they're putting it back they're putting it back literally and they're not looking at it you know they're looking at it for blasphemy or whatever else and they're going to want to want to just go back and do all these things on a little level you know with the state backing them up understanding it so I don't think it wasn't my intention to bottom this issue out cuz it's there's lots of things to sort out but I wanted to show us that the problems what paulie's having is that there's this demo not the ology which is the two churches living concurrently then you've got the problem that he's merging two lines together he's got in the son-in-law period where you can't address the Jews he's addressing the juice that is a repeating enlarge there and the other problem he has to deal with is the old New Covenant is that a system in an individual level and what I want you to show us is that at the individual level no matter what covenant you're under here you can have life you can have mercy you can sort out the problem God will do that at an individual level but at a system level it doesn't allow you to do that there is no mercy here this is just law this is just rules the mercy comes at the individual level and you can have this mercy whatever dispensation you're living in it doesn't make any difference whether you're under the new on the old you can experience this mercy so mercy is at the individual level not at the structural or the corporate level they cannot be any mercy has to be inflexible why do you think imagine imagine on a systemic level like no with a movement only different what are they the different things and teams that have that are the foundations and you know that has made us know as a people what we are imagine if there were false doctrines within that system it wouldn't affect it wouldn't affect just one individual and even if it did elevated the value of a soul a single individual is worth more than the value of words so if there was sin on a corporate corporate level if there were errors within the movement it would cause the loss of many lives and therefore God cannot afford them he cannot afford for them and that is why it is important for us to get if that from the time of the end wait when the big in the inception of the message there are no mistakes person because that's what persons are arguing and the Deaf is not a prophet because he admits that he makes mistakes and that therefore that cannot be inspiration you have to understand it's not about the money it's about the movement even though it is comprised of men if we have arrow embedded in our message the effect of those arrows is detrimental on a wider scale than on and it's so bad it's not just on a wider level it affects the whole great controversy this issue here what people claims is or think or conceptualize or come to a conclusion that is evil is the very protection the God has to put into place to not only protect all the universe but to protect our individual rights and he and I don't know how to explain it but this this thing is your protection it's not your it's not evil it's good but Satan has a way of manipulating and twisting this to make what God put into place to be good and turning it into evil these laws are not our enemies they're our friends they protect and they protect our individual rights but say it has a way of manipulating this and twisting this so tomorrow I'm done now on this on this corporate and individual level we haven't bottomed it out but I've hopefully made you aware that you need to approach it this way if you don't approach it this way spirit prophecy quotes don't make sense the thing I wanted us to see it doesn't matter where you live in what time period before the time of the end or after the time unit makes no difference that you can have this experience but this is rigid it doesn't change whether it's new or old now the terms and conditions may be different you know whatever the law is so the law might change but the rules and regulations don't change these inflexible and we're not going to address the issue in Hebrews 8 verse 10 which is similar did which you mentioned which was after those days first ed after those days I need for us to be aware because we have introduced time here time at the end so after those days is talking about an individual or a structural issue this is where it becomes problematic I'm going to say it's a structural issue because that's how it's drawn here so after the time of the end there is no difference in how the law is applied but now there's different laws so that's why that's the issue which we're not going to talk anymore I've given you notes two sets of notes and tomorrow we want to start dealing with them it's all about the will so we're going to begin with this single page one steps to Christ and then we'll go to the other ones we'll spend a few days reading through those quotes to try to understand how the will operates because we want to come back to our model in the few remaining lessons that we have together the model of the lower and higher powers let's pray our Heavenly Father as we grapple with these things that have perplexed the minds of mighty men who have far greater wisdom than we have Lord we ask for grace and strength we ask for the working of the Holy Spirit to enlighten our minds that we might begin to have clarity long as we lean more and more upon the lines that you have given to us help us to see the beauty in the symmetry and the strength of these lines that they give us the power and the ability to enter into areas that so many men in the past have entered into and have failed help us to have confidence Lord that the work that you have begun you will complete at the end in Jesus's name we pray I mean