(11-02-17) - Conscience - (L1 kTPMHHe0)

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Publish Date: 11/2/2017
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Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (11-02-17) - Conscience-L1_kTPMHHe0
YouTube ID: L1_kTPMHHe0

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we were looking at test mrs. church volume 2 page 348 paragraph 1 we saw that there was this tension between the lower passions and the higher powers and there were these people who were essentially making excuses that they were being controlled sorry 348 paragraph 1 maybe we should read that I'll find it quickly some will acknowledge the evil indulgence so the evil of sinful indulgence is yet will excuse themselves by saying they cannot overcome their passions this is a terrible admission for any person who names the name of Christ that everyone that name is the name of Christ depart from iniquity why is this weakness it is because the animal propensities have been strengthened by exercise until they have gained the ascendancy over the higher powers men and women become when men and women lack principle they are dying spiritually because they have so long pampered their natural appetites that their power of self-governance the government seems gone he hasn't really gone it just seems gone the lower passions of their nature have taken the reins they're taking control and that which should be the governing power has become the servant of corrupt passion the soul is held in lowest bondage since you ality is quenched a desire for holiness and withered spiritual prosperity so we picked up this idea that the lower passions have taken the reigns or control so we went from there to I think two other passages maybe three other passages that we looked at and what we saw that this governing power could be expressed in different ways you've got the governing power the reason or the conscience or the high moral principle and someone mentioned the will but we haven't discussed the wheel yet I'll take that out because it what we didn't give a spirit prosti quote for that when we looked at that so we saw that they were these different ways of expressing the same thing and then we started looking a little bit about the conscience so what we can see is that the conscience is part of the higher powers and not only is it part of the higher powers it's almost certainly connected to the moral part not to the intellectual or mind part and the reason is because the definition of conscience is the ability to know what's right and what's wrong and it's the inner voice that convicts us when things are going wrong or we're doing something wrong does anybody have any more thoughts about the conscience before we move on based upon what we spoke of yesterday so the question is does the corrupters the conscience work fine or has it been damaged in some way I'm not sure what you mean by the moral application well justified conscience as right and wrong I didn't put anything else on perhaps I'm not making that assertion am i I'm just using the dictionary definition of what conscience means conscience means there's part of your being that inherently by design knows what's right and those what's wrong it's not some kind of gift that you eat that you get when you're 20 years old or that you have to pray for or that you have to ask for so the question of whether or not it's you said if it's interrupted so I guess the problem you're asking is before sin was the conscience corrupted know after seen wherever you want to go after sin was the conscience corrupted was it damaged in some way sister Kathy spirit of prophecy Christ object lessons page 99 it's about the 11 says a new standard of character is set up the life of Christ the mind has changed the faculties are aroused to action in new lines man is not endowed with new faculties but the faculties he has are sanctified the conscience is awakened we are endowed with traits of character that enable us to service for God and what does that mean to you well yesterday I said that conscience was dead and I can see that that's not true but in light of what sister white saying about the conscience awakened it appears that there's some kind of sleeping or some kind of not full functioning of the conscience prior to read the statement again so everybody can pick it up and then we'll be sum up someone else we'll keep some coming the reference again Christ object lessons 99 paragraph sorry what law says 98 that it's computed okay so use Christ I'll pick next of 98.3 a new standard of characters set up the life of Christ the mind has changed the faculties are aroused to action in new lines man is not endowed with new faculties but the faculties he has are sanctified the conscience is awakened we are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God so the thing I get most from that is that before sin after sin as you go right down to the degeneracy that we find ourselves in we have no new faculties nothing was taken away and nothing was added most of us intellectually are forced to accept that premise that nothing was taken away nothing was added but the way we've reasoned problems out I'll say the way we excuse our behavior is somewhere in the back of our thinking I think many of us don't really believe that many of us think that something needs to be added in for things to work properly perhaps I did a way different people do that to me it's certainly because we keep on looking around and we keep on looking in the mirror we actually look to our own past experience around faults and failings and that of others to create a model of religion that is not related to what inspiration tells us that it is is her word conscience is awakened dude is that metaphor so what's real quite a collab it but but the issue about no new faculties I just want us to maybe explore a little bit about that do we really believe there were no new faculties but in order for your faculties that are there and set in place to function properly you do need to add in the Holy Spirit when you say function properly in the way God would want it to function okay that would be pleasing to God because the old if function properly don't they I mean well it memories God would not most people will function normally but not the way God would ultimately want them to function so I mean this person here in this one here after scene they've got they don't have the Holy Spirit they're still able to think they still have memories they still have a conscience without understanding what were Willys they still have some kind of will they still have an appetite to eat they still love things hate things so everything's still there but maybe they're not being used in the way that God would have them being used so we understand there's something going on between before sin and after sin but there's no change in the faculties isn't in and of themselves and not only that there's no change in the function of those faculties they're all function in the same way that they used to function now people are pretty silent about that so I don't if you accept that but if you did then you can see there's hardly any difference between sinless and sinful nature that there's hardly any difference and if I could venture to say there is no difference if we think about the faculties and the use of the faculties so the direction in which these faculties take you they were taking down one line and now they they're going to take you down a different line so I would suggest certainly the direction has changed but not the use of the mind itself or the mechanism of how it's used and the thing she's using mind they're not in the way we're using mine I don't think she's using it like this I think she's saying the whole thing the whole being is going in the different direction but the mechanism by which it happens is still the same and the faculties in and of themselves are all the same sister Sue Miller my understanding is that the conscience can be influenced so that was said yesterday influenced into rival interval what do you mean it to be influenced into life or interval what is this what is the conscience is the conscience the ability to know what's right and what's wrong yes so is that somehow damaged so we say conscience is nowadays in the 21st century consciousness can't tell you what's wrong they don't have that ability anymore is that what you mean I was looking for the scripture where it says to keep the conscience clear so if it if it needs to be kept clear that means there's things that come into the conscience which would make it unclean I'm clean did you say yeah I mean so not clear so if we're supposed to keep it clear then there's there's things which would lessen work so this I mean that's going to come into your conscience and when it comes into your conscience those who have to ask what is coming into your conscience so you have to answer that then when it comes into your conscience what does it do so the entire conscience up and say you're no longer allowed to know what's right and what's wrong or you don't have the ability to do that anymore it just needs to be rewired I guess what is rewiring mean and what does it look like if you say the abilities there the conscience job function only is to know what's right and what's wrong but when you're doing wrong to convict you of that and you're saying it doesn't function anymore there's a function I'm saying why you need to be wiring it's been influenced let me stop there how can the conscience go down the wrong path because the the parties you know what's right and what's wrong you go to the Oracle you go to the conch and you say tell me what's right and what's wrong and the Oracle says I'm gonna go down the wrong path which means I'm not gonna do my job anymore is that what you're saying no you're not saying that because you so you kind of infer that but then you say actually I'm not saying that so I'm saying it doesn't need rewiring the conscience does not need we're wiring because when you go to the Oracle you say is it right or is it wrong the console to say hold on a minute let me have a check so it gets its secret book out and how the check in he says oh it's wrong and the problem is it's using a wrong book that's what the problem is with the contradict the book that it's using what it's consulting isn't correct but the conscience itself doesn't need to be rewired it works perfectly well it's always worked well it's always done what it's supposed to do because if we believe that it doesn't work properly why would you ever go and consult it it's a problem with the conscience it doesn't have good information and the information is here that's how people can do strange things and be conscience free so is this a Holy Spirit input work upon the conscience the answer has to be no because the conscience it's designed should know what's right and what's wrong a mathematician doesn't pray to the Holy Spirit and say help me to do maths properly the intellect is able to do that inherently and people are knowingly don't realize that whenever they do something good it's only because of the Holy Spirit they may not believe in the Holy Spirit or pray for the Holy Spirit but that doesn't mean to say that the Holy Spirit isn't working in their lives the Holy Spirit is always imperceptibly working in our life that's where you and I fundamentally disagree then we did I disagree that a human being without the Holy Spirit is able to do right because your argument is going to say this that if you want to run a marathon and lose weight and come off diabetic medication by exercise and natural remedies you have to have the Holy Spirit driving that you cannot do it in your own strength and you know that you don't believe that and then you're going to keep on saying actually it can only happen through the Holy Spirit and now you're going to develop a model that says the billions of people in this world who do that very thing are doing it by the Holy Spirit and they didn't even know and if the Holy Spirit can do that to them while earth will they need to become Christians because the Holy Spirit is controlling them and they're not even Christians answer my question no answer my question because you've developed a model that says non-christians can be saved because the Holy Spirit does something to them so they no need to make a confession and acceptance of Christianity without even knowing about Jesus 10 commandments is that a rhetorical question or you don't know the art is it rhetorical you don't you know I know the answer so you tell me what the answer is they do they keep the law quite probably more than we do without the Holy Spirit yes yeah I mean they just say to where you think you said two minutes ago that they couldn't happen that they can't do good without the Holy Spirit said they couldn't do it you said he does he imperceptibly yeah they're doing good without realize that is the Holy Spirit that is so you go do it there you go again they can't do good without the Holy Spirit empowering him and it didn't even ask his permission so now God he's gonna force you to do stuff that he doesn't that he wants you to do you can't even help it brother Jason I believe that the conscience is in a lock in a law law yes do I say that because I I read a Cartesian and a spirit of prophecy and she said that if the conscience is the voice of God so I am looking at the conscience as I in alone Louise for that is before you do something wrong the conscience start to tell you that not to do it and the law is that lies like a mirror some looking at the conscience in that in that in the example like we say the law I'm the law paint off your sin so I'm not sure if that's correct because it seems to me that the law is a number of words that say this is good and this is bad and the conscience here has to go to this place the library where the lorries held and find out what the law says it's not the law itself it goes to the law and says tell me what the law says connected with the internet it's connected with information its ability to tell you what's right and wrong functions perfectly well but it doesn't know what's right and wrong because to the conscience convict you you're wrong so just looking at how the conscience know what's right and what's wrong go to the intellect oh yeah the information okay you're going to be the Bible verse to us you've got to be willing to explain what it means you can't this we can't just pick up a Bible verse that says the word conscience in it now it's too late Romans chapter 2 I'll read the I'll read them out for the audio and then you explain it chapter 2 verse 14 I'll take up from verse 13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God but the doers of the law shall be justified for when the Gentiles which have not the law do by nature the things contained in the law these having not the law are a law unto themselves which show the work of the law written in their hearts their conscience also bearing witness and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another where they haven't heard the ten commandments they already know by the conscience what is right and what is wrong like a law with it it's like a law okay so when they're born they know fundamental difference between certain things that are right and certain things that are wrong well you don't know everything because you've got millions of people who weren't born knowing that Sabbath is the right day there has to be taught there are some things that they know inherently and some things they have to be taught and so on which so the problem is they don't have a full grasp a full set of information they don't have everything there so someone has to go and teach them some extra information anyone else on tasty verses we become changed and so the changing is taking place in our information not in our conscience two things I want to I've always said this one about the implement that the mind the information that's oh I'm late and now making assertion here the when we headed the genesee of the human race priests in PO said the the moral and they the higher powers the intellects and the moral were not degenerated they didn't change they work perfectly well the problems that have arisen is the conscience worked well before and it works well now the mechanism by which it works hasn't changed it doesn't need to be rewired in in that kind of in the way that most people will understand rewiring the intellect hasn't changed either its ability to amass information you do memorization it may be much harder now because our brains don't work as well we've become weakened but the mechanism by which that happens is all fixed if you look at if you if you watch it a good series on health reform you know by by someone who knows what they're talking about and they'll tell you how or someone who understands about brown brain science how they the wiring of the synapses and all the nerve endings how they all connect together that's how it was always done you know it it might not work as well but it hasn't changed that doesn't mean doesn't need to be some new mechanism by which we memorize it was hard work then in it's hard work now the way you know information is an aid your sits with you and tells you stuff it goes in through your senses gets into your faculty and resides there through chemical reactions and the electrical impulses that's how it was done priests in and that's how it's done posting so there's no change there's weaknesses because of 6,000 years of DNA damage and all that kind of stuff but the mechanism hasn't degenerated so I'm saying this hasn't changed and this hasn't changed but the lower powers are just out of control there's huge changes in that part of our being huge changes but the other two there haven't been any changes so for us all to sort of say Amen I think there's probably been quite a big change in our thinking so let's go to unless anybody's got any more comments let's go to first Timothy because this is there are many good conscience Bible Gandhian server sees in the scriptures but this is the one that most people are going to turn to first Timothy chapter 4 so before we read it sister Kathy if you just reread that statement from Christ object lessons because we're going to pick up this thought about you so either have been awakened or sleeping a new standard of character or set up the life of Christ the mind has changed the faculties are roused to action in new lines man is not endowed with new faculties but the faculties he has are sanctified the conscience is awakened we are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God so what are the new lines that it's referring to in that passage so when it says sanctified would have sanctified me made holy put to a holy you set apart for holy use so is that the new lines before your purpose in life was self-centered doing your own thing and now your life has been set apart for holy use which is the new direction the new lines in which you're traveling down and your whole being is now setting that within that way so verse 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy having their conscience seared with a hot iron what does that mean my question and I would I asked him and he told me to ask you what does it mean to have your conscience seared and you went to this oh yeah I don't have the answer let me begin by saying that but maybe we can work it out together because two minds are better than one let's just wouldn't what just a basic level what is that very saying their consciences have been seared with a hot iron so our consciousness have been dumbed down they've been destroyed okay so it's being branded sister on Tanisha and then sister Susan and then brother Larry are you sure are you certain I'm sorry I'm sorry I didn't mean to do that I think go again sorry that's the word said surrender to render find sensitive you doing the same thing to render uncensor t so let's just go with that thought to render and sensitive what does that mean how could you render I'm saying the conscience does not need rewiring looks perfectly well even in opposition to this verse so if it's seared which renders it according to disperse now is that what you mean according to this verse Hey so I'm saying there's some damage to the conscience oh we're trying to work out what it is it's now rendered what I'm sensitive okay so what makes a conscience sensitive or insensitive so let's try put our hands up sister Susan you had your pathway within the greens so you left because you okay no I answered that your left - what just tell me the word you say you next to anything yeah you're just you're not really following any specific direction this so if you had direction when it'll work fine cuz I'm also thinking no we also want to my question if you had direction you said you get the piece of wood you sand it now and there's no direction because you can't form the grain yeah so if it rained a bit or something happened and the grain came back would you be able to find your direction again I think it would help because actually that's your model that you developed so the problem isn't its ability to do something he's put the problem is the lines have gone yeah so what in that now in that analogy what are you saying has been hurt no you didn't say that what you're saying is the information yeah let me give you another as analogy you know a moral compass you know that's what the compass conscience is a Satnam a GPS you would say in America when it's not updated it will send you now in the wrong room and that's the information that within that so it's I'm just looking at it like that it's the green is gone the information that you needed to follow that pathway it's not that so the grain is the information not the ability to follow the crazy okay but Larry had the same point so let's I see your hand are you going to answer the question about the inability to I'm sensitive you even ought to that okay so the conscience is we come on sensitive or insensitive iron but I think it's more like with a kettle or an animal have you ever seen person in there yeah yeah yeah carry on yes so that's it like it's another imprint as you've been saying that has been stumped another source are of information is no feeding that it's branded with and different okay so now we've got two completely different models you either get a steak you've put it on a cooker and you sear it which is not the same as branding two totally different things so we're going to go for this the searing is it the first one where you cook the thing today or you get an iron and you wrecked the thing or is it about branding because when you brand the cattle it's the same thing that all you're talking about is ownership that's the first the finish so if we're going to use that concept of branding and we're going to use the other one of rendered insensitive what does it mean that the conscience is now is no longer sensitive is that because it doesn't work properly I'm saying you know so well how can it be insensitive now what makes it insensitive a different concept what makes it insensitive no no I asked my question not the branding I'm moving off branding I'm going to insensitive insensitive he's not branding can we all see that the conscience works fine could you say which direction to go and it says I don't have good information the insensitivity is not its ability to know things it's a it's problem is it's information base insensitive render means make to make insensitive you know that one you've made it insensitive ain't no longer yes a long a sensitive but the toilet is sister Terry in verse one is that these are people who who had something they had truth they had the right bit of information and now they're departing from that truth and the consequences that their conscience is now you don't go to context II know this without this stuff because we don't know me go to conscience we did that in class but the visitors who were on here we didn't go to context we just pick a word whatever is on that board unless you read through the class doesn't really make much sense because it was just brainstorming but if you don't check context you come up with some really strange ideas sister teri okay first while you're gonna go okay we'll leave verse one for the moment okay before you go to context just wanna make sure that we've dealt with this issue about the conscience and the Sirian of the conscience so just a couple of comments on that if people want to the sister my sister on the bead is saying it's not getting an iron and wrecking the shirt it's putting a logo onto the shirt that's what's being brought to view here it's about logos and the reason why that's important to understand is because what's our most famous passage about logos testimonies to ministers page 38 paragraph 1 branding of Antichrist the kings of the earth Kings rulers and governors have taken them upon themselves to branded Antichrist and are betrayed has been the dragon power so they can be as much of a dragon power as they want but it doesn't actually do any harm to anybody because the thing that turns you from a lamb to a dragon revelation 13:11 is war just from that passage the one we're just reading out it would be war it's the branding it's the branding that turned you from a lamb to a dragon and so this concept of branding isn't rec insurance it's about logos so if we if we're okay with that premise then we need to start looking about the context but two people had their hand up sister Alyssa lessons she says that the promise of obedience they appear to fulfill when this involves no sacrifice but when self-denial and self-sacrifice are required and they see the cross to be lifted they draw back that's the conviction of duty wears away and no transgression of God's commandments becomes habit the ear may fear God's words but the spiritual perceptive powers have departed the heart is hardened into the conscience I agree with the information has been distorted so does that not mean that there needs to be some rewiring taking place if the information has been changed because I agree the rewiring of what the information information is not here information is here conscience is here information is here different faculties so conscience comes under will is that not under will it comes under the high moral principle this one moral is more than just consciousness other things but it's conscience so if we're gonna talk about rewiring then the rewiring is information but the information is not connected to the damage of the conscious itself yeah so do you everybody pick up what sister ELISA said because she's given another definition of searing just rate the quality it's the promise of obedience they appear to fulfill when this involves no sacrifice but when self-denial and self-sacrifice are required when they see the cross to be lifted they drop back thus the conviction of duty wears away and known transgression of God's commandments becomes habit so this is what I am seeing it's not the information that's that's changed it's our grouch two sets of information if we're ignoring the snowy snowy route no transgression of God's commandments God's commandments haven't changed the information hasn't changed it's our habitual actions our habits the ear may hear God's Word but the spiritual perceptive powers have departed so this is what creates the searing the heart is hardened the conscience seared the spiritual perceptive powers so we've just developed a model which is branding and the branding is to do with what ownership but it's to do with lack of information isn't it so you've got this issue of lack of information so that's one area about seeing our conscience is this is another definition if you like another realm what was the gist of that passage is there a problem of information no so this one isn't a problem it you've got all the information so there now the problem is you've got the information but you're just not following the information so and the way it's going to use it in this context and she doesn't the number of places that you have all the information you know what you're supposed to do but you don't do it and then your conscience become Sears or not this unscented or desensitized becomes desensitized when you know what you're supposed to do and you don't do it so there's that problem and there's a whole other problem that you actually don't even have an information base which one having the information they're speaking lies in hypocrisy so they know what's truth okay so I'll read verse two and you tell us where he's saying speaking lies in hypocrisy having their conscience seared with a hot iron so they've got an information base that's correct yes and they're not following it now so their consciences have become desensitized something just on the point of branding is it valid to say you could replace that one staff yes brother Tyler context we'll read verse one then tell us what you're saying now the spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils speaking lies in hypocrisy having their conscience seared with a hot iron forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats which God hath created to be received with Thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth for every creature of God is good and nothing to be refused for if it be received with Thanksgiving so if it be received with Thanksgiving but he sanctified by the Word of God and pray did you want to make comment or you tell in this context you have a group of people obviously know the correct the truth but now they're going to be hypocrites and go against that truth and by doing that they're desensitizing or searing their conscience willful ignorance yes verse 3 do we know what most people or whom this is normally talking about whom you pick up verse three because if you ask most evangelical Christians they'll tell us Adventists kiss we say you're not allowed to eat all this nice food which church we take the church yeah we want to plate to the papacy but most people applied these verses to us they don't deal with this marriage bit but they like the meat bit yeah but he says God sanctifies don't call anything unclean which I have called clean as that means you can eat pork nowadays yes yeah they're saying it was all sanctified and this is their primary argument that adventism is a cult because we fit into that criteria but we say what is it what does this mean forced fasting celibacy yeah but all of that July 2003 David Sabbath Harold okay she says that for that verse which reversed for mm-hmm okay it should be understood by all that in the Bible the word meat does not necessarily mean flesh it is the old Saxon word for food of any kind and is not in itself distinctive he's a spirit of prophecy it doesn't sound like it okay is that what you got you doing it online no I did it on there okay so yeah on the new app I think the new app includes I think it doesn't sound like real prophecy okay so let me ask you a question what is the gospel sorry the gospel is the message some message you're not going to define what that message is you're not going to find you say some message and my brother's saying one aspect is prophecy I'll put an e in front of it does that make it any different same thing okay so I'll tell you what I think prophecy is a gospel is because no one wants to participate the everlasting gospel is a three-step prophetic testing message which does a number of things do we agree with that yep so let's not got personal is this a divinely inspired statement it's 25 people here know once you know one person did is this divinely inspired early so you define it because you said yes so she says it's it's given from the Word of God so she's got a Bible verse that teaches that or a couple of them revelation 14:6 to 12 sister shamila I'm not asking that you said it's true I said and I said how'd you know is it divinely inspired is it is it an inspired statement you said it was I said divinely inspired and someone said define that let me start let me stop you there I'm saying you're not allowed to eat rabbits is that a divinely inspired statement okay some people are saying it is that some people saying it isn't eat rabbits so if I quote scripture does that make it a divinely inspired statement that I'm making sorry No do people say see the difference so if I quote scripture now I'm divinely inspired that's the context that you're using it here so now you're backing out of that say no so what so what makes this new berry inspired day exactly but not you saying you can't do that to making divinely inspired and we're trying to listen if you quoted it correctly what is that what would that mean if I caught it correctly the devil was quoting scriptures to Christ correctly in some aspect no he was watching contextually he wasn't doing it correctly what even so context earlier I can quote scripture and still use it wrong context or me I'm asking if you used it contextually correctly don't think about the negative think about the positive because this is a positive statement mmm if you do it context me correctly is it defined this inspired you nothing every rule but in some cases because it's referencing back to a Bible quote no then what makes it divinely inspired okay to be you'd have to be fulfilled because how do you know how do you test a profit there's tests of profit you have to test their words okay so now you're introducing the concept that if it's divine this Friday then I must be a prophet to say you can't eat rabbit is that what you mean I was basing it on that go that please this divine inspired or not yes because you'd have to test it you have to test it to testimony to see if there's light in it okay you didn't define divine inspired death maybe the you that's why I'm sorry may you why you're not participating in my class that's what I want that's why can't we do not say anything so you're making me to say everything no you were I was also divided someone asked me a question and I'm the facilitate through this last normally direct people so I want people to keep their idea not just me give my idea really funny if I did that so I'll do it now in this just for you I'm saying if it's divinely inspired then the prophet has spoken that's what that's the to me what would make it divinely inspired yeah the dispensational prophet has spoken it so is it inspired now the dispensation means when you go from one way of doing something or one era of history like the patriarchal system to the Levitical system to the mill chesnic system like that or revelation two and three Ephesus that dispensation to Smyrna to Pergamos dispensations of the same thing different periods of time judgment of the dead to the judgment of the Living so - for me to have something inspired means a prophet has to speak that not a person has to quote inspiration quote a Bible verse because me quoting Bible verses doesn't qualify me to be a prophet it just qualifies me to be a regurgitator of truth so if it was Inspira in spy statement then the Prophet would have have to have done that and the Prophet would have had to be a prophet that's around which I would say is a prophet that's dispensational it's living in that dispensation so does that change our perspective of things they're sorry okay the reason I ask is because everywhere I go and they ask people this question they always say no then they should believe that then it's a three-step prophetic testing message the rest of it we could just add on bits that bit that people ballcap let me find this passage with ready a number of times you read it over and over again at the prophecy school and I still can't remember it's about 343 because you paraphrase that Forrest yep I'll read it then I'll find it I did it a number of times I only quote paragraph 2 but not paragraph one paragraph one if you don't put paragraph one in context a paragraph two the passage loses it loses this edge but I'm not I'm gonna do that I'm not going to read paragraph 1 but what I want to pick up is this half way into the passage but no man however honored of heaven has ever attained to a full understanding of the great plan of redemption or even to a perfect appreciation of the divine purpose in the work for his own time I read that again then you tell me what that meant gc3 43 paragraph 2 but no man however honored of heaven has ever attained to a full understanding of the great can redemption or even to a perfect appreciation of the divine purpose in the work for his own time what does that say to you okay not weight profit does what does another time so he's speaking words and easy speaking words appropriate to his time so we agree with that and is he making any mistakes no we should we agree with that so when he speaks he doesn't make any mistakes but he doesn't actually understand what he's saying can he have a misconception of things you know misconceptions you can have faulty thoughts and ideas but what he says is in errant which is a fancy way of saying he didn't make any mistakes so we have to ask ourselves the question is this a divinely inspired statement or did we just kind of cobble it together and make it up and if you're going to use this this your Miller's answer her response to that is what do you do you test it so you have to keep on testing and testing to see if it bears weight if it doesn't bear weigh what have you discovered sister sue Miller I mean you can make mistakes God make God can make mistakes no I mean God can make mistakes that's all God can make mistakes so when he sends a man he says told them my words that you ate and you're gonna vomit them out regurgitate them can they be a mistake so the man the men do they make mistakes they can't make mistakes this is Isaiah 35 verse 8 if you're on the path you cannot earn and people just don't like to hear that they don't like to hear that this movement cannot make mistakes right that you know I like minded unit if you only got it by it so what you have to do is the Prophet raises up and if you want to test the Prophet where there is a prophet or not you have to get with that statement and put some analysis to it you have to test that you have to prove it so if we've been proving this statement the reason I ask is because wherever I go and I say do you agree with that statement and this is of course I would grew with it and then we'd start putting some weight on it then there's actually I don't what happens if you add your words or take the words out from an inspired statement what happens to you you get cursed than you yeah you get cursed because everywhere I go people say okay that looks pretty good but what we'll do is what the Prophet really meant was it's a three-step prophetic and moral testing message always want to add that in always want to add that in and I'm saying okay so what you're telling me is either it's not an inspired statement just some ad hoc thing that someone threw together when there's a bit of spare time or you're not on the message other than what people think here today they think it is prophetic or it's not the reason why I ask the question is because back here we had a just a message and it says one aspect someone else can I don't have to do things simply across the board Larry defined the Gospel as a message and one aspect of it was prophecy which means there's got to be another aspect to it and Parminder saying usually people are gonna say that other aspect is moral and so brothers walking through the word I took my phone at I got this message it said this I'm sure by now you realize that you caught controversy a lot I wonder if that is a strategy of yours and my answer is I don't court controversy and I don't have a strategy to cause they say I caught by now I'm sure you realize that you caught controversy a lot I invite it I wonder if this is the strategy of yours and I'm saying I mean saying it's a question I'm master - that person is no I don't caught controversy and I don't have a strategy all I'm trying to do is just trying to understand what our reform line is I don't do things provocatively it's not a game and people think that it is and I want to know why are they thinking that do they think I'm disingenuous or I've got some secret motive or the people and our people say this isn't serious this is there some kind of Bible study game that we're all doing and we'll just jump through words and numbers and look up dictionary definitions because it's all fun but clear a lot of money people waste a lot of time watching videos if this is what they think this is all about because I thought this was a life and death testing message and god forbid that I would maliciously or deliberately play around and call controversy just for the sake of it I'm genuinely trying to understand for myself so I'm bringing my questions to you do you believe that this is divinely inspired do you believe we have a dispensational prophet so if that's the case why are we adding to this because my understanding is when we add to the scripture or we take away is because what we're doing is coming to the Bible having preconceived ideas which are based upon our experience or the experience of other people because we're looking around it everybody and we're saying surely it can't be so because everybody in my church taught me that messiahs don't die so when the Messiah says I'm gonna die maybe he's talking about something else maybe we don't want to listen to what he says maybe we just ignore it maybe we'll rebuke him and tell him off instead of just taking him at his word when it's all contrary to what we ever were taught or understood so I I understand that the gospel is some good news it's all you know embellished with morality so I'm struggling this just the same way everyone else is struggling that how do you reconcile how do i reconcile my preconceived ideas which I didn't invent by the way they were handed to me on a plate and now someone stands up and says everything that you were ever taught was all wrong and that person doesn't come around helping me they just put a bombshell to me and then leave me to sort the problem out myself that's how I feel I don't know how you feel so when I do that to you to say you filled in the same mess that I feel that I mean people say I caught controversy and I'm saying I didn't do that it's the Prophet that caused the problem in the first place it wasn't me and the Prophet was the voice peace of God so God calls the problem Matthew 13 he maliciously and deliberately is going to code his language so that no one can understand and if we're not sure about that go to Isaiah 6 we've gone through this a number of times already I don't know why there's all this issue about Isaiah 6 is at 9:00 11:00 or midnight because to me all of that is a moot point it's an irrelevant point where it's 9:00 11:00 or midnight and people hang up on all of that stuff to me the crux of this is verse 9 and 10 and then into eleven nine eleven that's what the issue of Isaiah 6 is I read from verse 9 but it's verse 10 I want to go to and he said go and tell these people here indeed but understand not and see indeed but perceive not and now is gonna tell you why make the heart of this people fat and make their is heavy and shut their eyes unless they see with their eyes hear with their ears and understand with their heart and convert and be healed this statement here was maliciously put together so that you can't even be saved that's how I read I don't know how everybody else reads verse 10 you give a message to hardened people's heart not to soften it not to make it understandable to make it I'm gonna say malicious deliberately maliciously hard and so I know that's the case because we keep on adding our own words in there to massage the information the reason why Isaiah 6:8 99211 is important because this is what Jesus is quoting when the issue comes up in Matthew 13 the whole issue of wheat and tares to hold the vision that's being course now is based upon this premise the messages are given that people don't understand and they have to work through it we should be spending as much time if not more time on our knees than we do in studying so we have a clearer understanding of what's going on not right I'm saying God drops a bombshell on us and what I'm asking is it's been around for a few years and nobody seems to have seen that a bomb hit us then experience in the face it says a three-step prophetic taste every word must have its proper bearing and I've got in trouble again on this issue that I said I don't understand William withers rules everybody says they're easy and then what says they're simple rules I'm saying they're not simple rules and and in yesterday's class and the class before we've proven it's not simple people read the words and they don't understand what what to do with it I'm not trying I can't remember even who said it says I'm not trying Baris anybody we went to a Bible verse and I said tell me what the Bible verse means and someone says you mean literally they asked a question like you want this to look at it literally and I said how else do you supposed to look at it if not literally isn't that a rule and so we've got people who claim to know the rules maybe even memorize some of them don't even apply them because we're not familiar with we're doing them it's not normal it's counterintuitive of how to apply william winners rules and one of them is it says they should all have their proper bearing so if that's the case and it says prophetic taste what I'm trying to do is understand is that the case or not and if it's proven to be not true the ripple effects are serious because you can't say well it's okay he's only a man because I'm only a man yeah I'm just a man I could I can make lots of mistakes and I can get off scot-free I'm teaching some mistakes or error the movement carries on and just I just get dropped by the wayside okay so enough of that sort preaches stuff if this is the case 3-step prophetic testing message I want to try and understand this in the context of conscience of right and wrong brother Larry oh oh you mean you what okay we just we'll just take all of that out sister she will say that you had a surprise when you say that no I mean then you asking I'm asking why you asking you've been on the message for ages laughter that question is a study time of the end conviction John 16 verse 8 we're on the same page there the work of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin so the question is why is he convicting you of sin when you've already got a conscience right in darkness so this said this there is a some kind of a problem so we want to try and tack tie this piece of information of why this is happening because it's fundamental to reform line I know the most important way marks are the increase of knowledge in the formalization and the reason is because of Deuteronomy 18 18 and jeremiah 31:33 did the places that I would go to demonstrate and prove that the because they're the same way mark the increase of knowledge and the formalization that is the way mark that everybody has to go to because he's great controversy 343 but the time of the end is the one that our whole movement hinges upon isn't it you have to get Daniel 11 verse 40 correct we should be spending a lot of time understanding that those that verse because there's much that we don't understand it especially when we're teaching our message if you don't understand the time at the end everything gets destroyed I'm not trying to say this is the most important way mark in that context because we've already demonstrated it is because it you need to know about the men but without the time within you have nothing so at the very beginning of a reformed line I should sort of really take this out the first thing God's going to tell us is that the Holy Spirit's couldn't convict us of sin and that has to drive us to a place where we're dealing with conscience now because the purpose of conscience is to know right and wrong and to convict us of that and as soon as you get into this realm now you having to deal with the nature of man so we've got to bring in a number of concepts time at the end conviction by the work of the Holy Spirit the nature of man and the everlasting gospel because of that prophecy so let's come back to tip first Timothy chapter 4 verse 1 and 2 now the spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils so what are these people doing so the depart from the faith wife they departed from the faith so they've given he to seducing spirits and which are doctrines of devils so what are these deducing spirits what is it mean to seduce mislead sorry deceive if you're seduced to capture someone anyone else before we tie those together okay so you're mislead you're trapped into some doctrine or spirits these people he's funny was that relevant when we think why did he keep with your Brotherhood no I would say was it yeah but you inferred that it was even urban okay okay you said that problem actually makes no definition these people where were they originally they were in the faith so they're the party from the faith how why would you depart from the faith because you're gonna get seduced out of it yeah okay and this reduction was instigated by what mechanism what what was what produced dis departing from the faith the doctrines are devil so it's all about doctrines isn't it so there's the problem with these people is they used to be in the faith and now they're believing these different doctrines and these doctrines have what done what they're seduced them into this other way of operating or other thinking no I'm not saying that the doctrines are the spirits I can't prove this Graham saying the spirits of people and the doctrines are the belief system that these people are foisting upon this group of people these class of people so seducing spirits as to just the time of the end and here's an increase knowledge and enough formalization with error there has to be a similar thing there has to be an agent that is used to facilitate those false doctrines then we can impart them to others do you with that sister shamila listening spy that guy mumbling I said that it is similar to the reformed line where you have the time of the end there's an increase of knowledge and the formalization of a message likewise with the falls there has to be an agent a human agency that has increased light according to them and therefore put their message into words whereby their noble instruments used by see them do you agree with that decision people-people the spirits of people just change the word spirit and say yes people you agree with that how do we know that great controversy 343 no truth is more clear taught in the Bible that God by His Holy Spirit especially directly servants on earth so if God's going to do that what is Satan have to do has the counter in the exactly same weight has to be people so now this is why sister olivine is going to use seducing which is some kind of sexuality introduced into that because men are now going to give some sexy attractive doctrine which is going to take you from this path to another track because it has to look better than what you've already got doesn't it otherwise why would you leave it ownage a seduction in that terminology makes to become one yes so it has all the connotation about marriage about the woman riding the beast church and state all of these things are all connected together so I think you have you have to see what the definition of seduction is so human being seduced human beings okay verse two speaking lies in hypocrisy having their conscience seared with a hot iron so who's the one that has a seared conscience those who have deep eyes from the faith we agree with that so those of people who have had their conscience seared and they speaking lies in hypocrisy what does that mean speaking lies in hypocrisy if you think about it it's a it's it's a I don't know if it even makes much sense does anybody speak lies not in hypocrisy so here I am it's Friday so would that work yes I'd have to be hypocritical about it wouldn't I I'd have to cloudy up and and give some kind of false information pretend that it was because otherwise you'd know oh it's a straight lie is there any way of lying accepting hypocrisy like the Jewish leaders who think that they're living righteously speaking with a white Lord silica did everyone get that looks really good on the outside okay in terms of being able to speak lies and not be in hypocrisy what about the cannibal that eats brains and he believes that he's fulfilling his moral high calling it's a lie but he's not pretending he's living up to his moral high calling he's not being a hypocrite about it so what does the hypocrisy why is the introduces either of hypocrisy why would you just lie in hypocrisy because if it was just lying that would just be you could just go in the room and lie to yourself it would be a lie that's that's what elder Jeff has just said you don't need a relationship to lie I can just go to my room and say it's Friday today and that's a lie but I'm not doing it in Apocrypha the hypocrisy is when you now have a relationship so now it's with a focus or intentions in that context if he's going to be lying he can say it's a like to do this but now the hypocrisy he's gonna teach his son that this is a good way to live he's gonna cloud that lie in a way that makes it into a truth so that's why he becomes a hypocrite because he's gonna act the part of someone who's giving you good advice or doing something that's good as opposed to doing something that's bad so I'm suggesting I'm understanding that the concept of hypocrisy here is introducing the idea of a relationship not just a faculty of some isolated truth or error because that's just that's just like the hypocrisy is now when you want to go to someone and you want to foist your lies upon them so we ran out of time I'm not here on Sunday so we'll try and remember where we got to or on Monday have a look at other White's comments on these and and have a think about it the Greek and all of that see if we can break down this verse a bit more to try to understand but remember what we're trying to see is the conscience we're trying to get this verse to one and understand it connected to the time at the end you know that conscience is the time at the end it's not the empowerment or any of the other ones because it's conviction of sin righteousness and judgment is the first step in the everlasting gospel so it's the beginning of the first angels message all that he's connected to that and think a little bit more about 3-step prophetic test let's pray Heavenly Father we thank you for your goodness and mercy Lord may each of us as we kneel before you recognize that we are learner's that we need you to teach us and we need you Lord to show us what is right and what is wrong and when we have a fuller appreciation of what's right and what's wrong may our conscience is convict us and show us the way that we're supposed to be going Lord may we stop living lives where we ignore the truth that steer us in our face and we damage your wound our consciences to the degree that they no longer able to have a voice lord help us to have a clearer understanding of the truth because in so many ways we have not understood these truths correctly and if we're not careful we will receive the wrong branding please be with us bless us and direct us we ask and praying Jesus His name