(11-01-17) - Moral Power - (ncAbZ0T6URM)

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Publish Date: 11/1/2017
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Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (11-01-17) - Moral Power-ncAbZ0T6URM
YouTube ID: ncAbZ0T6URM

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I've had a few questions through chats or emails over the weeks and one of the questions that I was asked was if the body is not us and the body is the house in which we live what does the following statement mean that he's taken from early writings page 258 paragraph 2 so it's e w2 v 8.2 so there was that passage which I got specifically asked for and there's another one I found connected with this it's spiritual gifts vol 2 early writings 2 5 8 so I'm saying this body is not us and when we die whatever the mysteries of how God deals with us whether the breath goes back to heaven there's something that gets retained about our memories our personalities which in the resurrection get connected back together with a new body you become the same person that you were before so this this is to do with precious dust so I'm going to read the paragraph before William Miller could have seen the light of the third angel many things which looked dark and mysterious to him would have been explained but his brethren professed so deep love and interest for him that he thought he could not tear away from them his heart would incline toward the truth and then he looked at his brethren they opposed it could he tear away from those who had stood side-by-side with him in proclaiming the coming of Jesus he thought they surely would not lead him astray are given the right fighter number 2 5 atm so this is a paragraph we want God suffered him to fall under the power of Satan the Dominion of death and hid him in the grave from those who are constantly drawing hid him from the truth Moses heard as he was about to enter the promised land so also I saw that William Miller heard as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan in suffering his influence to go against the truth others led him to this others must account for it so this is the sentence we want to get to but angels watched the precious dust of servant of God and he will come forth at the sound of the last trumpet so the question that I was asked I guess it's obvious angels are watching the precious dust of this servant so what does that mean only death is about how he got misled from accepting the truth it's not a statement about the resurrection anyone else just referring to his dust to dust it's just that his body has gone back to dirt okay so he's bodies come back to dirt so why is that dirt precious because he was precious to God and so people are going to use that idea to say if that dust was him and it's precious does that mean that that dust is going to be the same dust that he's created from in the resurrection you'll have to be reformed remade from that precious stuff from that preciousness do we I've never read anything that suggests that he will use the same dust to recreate us have you heads my question so would that dust be precious he's precious but they refer to that because that's all that's left of him as precious so the second question I would have is Oh angels actually they're guarding that he's great did we think that I can't remember the year that he died but it's over 150 years are they still standing Guardian over his grave 49 or was this all just metaphoric language or the because it says angels in the plural so I mean that they released two angels that standing if we went to his grave would we be next to angels other J two angels by every redeemed person that has been laid to rest from an onward right because God's dealing with men are ever the same mm-hmm it's a metaphor is it not that's my understanding they just want to make sure how people see that because to me it means there's lot of angels standing around doing nothing for centuries and then then that then it the question comes up what about if you got cremated or you got burnt in the fire you know even if you don't deliberately get cremated oh you got eaten where were the angels stand then and God what I think it's easy to to miss read passages so Oh so why does it say that my understanding my thoughts are there is poetic language it's not literal he's dust isn't precious because it's just dust and literal angels are not literally standing there because the consequences of of going down that logic take you to very strange places he was precious when he was a living soul when he was alive the work that he did the agency that the agency of his being and what he did for the Lord when he was alive he was precious I read another one to sg-1 night three paragraph two and again if you read that literally then he's gonna come forth from that very spot and then if you're gonna do that way everyone has to be the same way what about what about him if his grave got bulldozed you know if we're ever able was killed maybe he'll summer in Turkey and he was six feet under the ground or whatever and they bulldoze that land or by erosion that whole plane got swept away now it's in the sea the consequences of thinking this literally it just takes you to crazy places I would think sister Kathy and then sister she mother they say that for us human beings that know that for the most part people get buried and during the resurrection occurs that'll just be resurrected from where they were lame where are they gonna get resurrected from starts yeah sorry I you made a statement and I didn't let you finish it because he says they get taken up from their graves I've seen this is all metaphoric language because there are so many people millions of Christians who don't even have graves and if they did have graves those graves have been desecrated decimated bulldozed and built over I mean that they could be under a you know the foundations of a building by now the earth could be it's just it's just with that with that unless you take these things metaphorically I don't think you could I don't think they make any sense sister Mona sixteen versus the precious in the sight of the Lord on your aim I think that's the question nobody just asked a couple of minutes ago or you got into an accident let's see you're in the Titanic you got eaten by sharks you know so many things it's just but it just becomes I think nonsensical and if you try and take these things literally second selected spiritual gifts 193 paragraph two talking about our sister Anna sister Anna continued to fail father and mother white and her sister eat any came from Maine to visit her in her affliction and it was calm and cheerful this interview with her parents and sister she had much desired she bid her parents and sister farewell as they returned to Maine to meet them no more until the Trump of God shall call forth the precious dust her health and immortality again it's a slightly stronger phrase and if you want to go into that and read those things literally she seems to be clearly saying that that precious dust which was sister Anna that dust is going to be called to health and immortality the dust that she was it's just figurative language otherwise there's so many things that just don't make sense and at the end of millennium when the New Jerusalem comes down the earth is required to be purified by fire and we're going to argue that the dust that we turn into is what he uses to make us a new body I argue that that desk came from this sinful earth and it's unusable it would be impure dust and we have the I mean if you want to get into the ridiculous argument of it he has to purify this earth with fire it's different dust there after just one more early writings 89 paragraph 1 Thomas Paine 89 paragraph 1 Thomas Paine whose body has no molded to dust and who is to be called forth at the end of the thousand years of the second resurrection to receive his reward and suffer the second death he's represented by Satan has been in heaven but it's this point here his body is now molded to dust and who's going to be called forth again if you run to read it you can read that to mean that and I'm pretty certain he doesn't I think most people here agree with it people on on video it wasn't just one person that asked it it was a it seemed to be a theme that people are concerned about so I just read one more statement this is six Bible Commentary 1093 6 BC paragraph 2 I've subtitled it not the same particles our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave the wondrous works of God are a mystery to man the spirit the character of man is returned to God they're to be preserved in the resurrection every man will have his own character God in his own time will call forth the dead giving again the breath of life and bidding the dry bones to live the same form will come forth but it will be free from disease and every defect it lives again bearing the same individuality of features so that friend will recognize friend there is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please him to me had your hand up on okay so I'll make the point first so we pick up a number of things them so what things that we pick up that it's not the same particles so if you get down to dust it ends up being particles so it's not the same dust God's not restrict the restricted or restrained to do that so the first thing is it's not the same particles the same the other thing is it's going to be the same form so when you get your new body you'll look the same in some shape in some way you're going to have the same kind of spatial features the same perhaps kind of physical features so there's those two things so she says it lives again bearing the same individual Mattia features so that you recognize people because they look similar I don't if we could say they look the same but it's not just the same form is like in two arms and two legs your labor you'll see features about the person which similar I mean if you looked at someone from the back it might not be that easy to see who the person is it's when you turn around and you see their features features are normally facial so I'm saying that you're gonna look similar to what you looked like before but they're not the same particles and then she Syria traits this point because she says there's no law of God in nature which shows God gives back the same identical particles and it's just most people are trying to use science the appliance of science into this issue and I think she's inferring this is above human science this is the miracle that he's going to do to put back someone together I would read one more desire of Ages 605 paragraph 3 he okay to just read this once is to mineral okay desired Veda 605 paragraph 3 same issue the Sadducees reasoned that if the body is to be composed of the same particles of matter in its immortal as in its moral state from its immortal that isn't its mortal state then when raised from the dead it must have flesh and blood and must resume in the eternal world the life interrupted on earth so even if that was the case but even if it was the same particles of matter that's resurrected and it goes into heaven it says because it was that they reasoned that if the body can be do they do this it must resume in the eternal world the life interrupted on earth so what does that mean they go from one premise which happens to be wrong and they build up a whole case which is built on this faulty premise and this is what they're going to say in that case they concluded that every sorry their earthly relationships would be resumed husband and wife would be really united marriage is consummated in all things go on the same as before death the frailties the passions of this life being perpetuated in the life beyond it's all built up upon the premise that you build up from the same particles and it's not just that it's built up from the premise that the body is you so it almost sounds to me like instead of focusing on being able to be resurrected they're more focusing on the spiritualistic side of it and they don't understand even the reason why because you know some things we're never gonna be able to figure out some things we're never gonna completely understand you're lift up to God that's a nice point that you make about there's some things we just don't understand and you know when we're dealing with this issue about the nature of man I'm the first person to admit there are some things I just don't understand but there are lots of things I'm not saying oh just me understand but that we can understand in that rubric I - but there is a mystery about this whole thing but that mystery shouldn't stop us from coming to sensible and reason positions and what we what we end up doing and I'm not sure why we do it but I suspect it's because we have our own pet theories we have our own concept of what we think is right and often I think it's built because we have some kind of frailty or weakness if I can call it an agenda or a hang-up and when we've got this issue that we're not gonna let go of we're going to read into inspiration thoughts and ideas that will bolster and defend them back us up so the Sadducees did this if you read it you know the Sadducees the whole argument is they love winning control they love their lives they want to take charge of everything because they're the leaders of the church so they develop a model that in the resurrection they can just carry on doing what they're doing and even if our bodies were composed of the same elements they would still be wrong in their assertion but they're not my sister 5:32 point to great controversy points is the utter extinction of life thank you brother I would get what you're saying if we and this is off the subject but if we're gonna hold to the premise that from 1989 to 2001 the stones were quarried out of the mountain whether anyone has recognized it or not there was a subject that was repeatedly taught because of teaching revelation 17 and that subject is is that a mystery in the Bible is not a mystery as a mystery in the world a mystery in the Bible is identified a truth that it's impossible for a human being to understand but everything that is revealed about that mystery we are required to understand so sometimes people use you know the mystery of iniquity or the mystery of godliness to to uphold their premise with an argument well we really can't understand it so I have the freedom to insert my premise in their different subject now when I worked at Hope International there there was a famous guy that hope and Heartland liked to work with but they both the both ministries knew that his teaching on justification by faith was incorrect so their agreement with him was when you come to our camp meetings don't teach on justification and at the same time they're out going to the world and opposing people that have the wrong understanding of justification by faith but they they like this guy well enough to work with him but when when I got to the push and shove of trying to understand why they would have this inconsistency in their working relationship with this brother they told me this that they believed that he took this wrong definition of justification by faith because he had a son that was about 40 years old the committed suicide so it forced him into making a doctrine on justification by faith that would allow the possibility that even though his son had taken his own life that he could be still safe so the idea of false premise is getting inserted into these ideas that's the that's what men do we're unwilling to lay aside our preconceived opinions the first point about mystery we haven't really addressed this issue but I've skirted around it and I've kind of intimated this point it's here on the board even though it hasn't been drawn in the classic way this here I'm suggesting is line upon line and what I mean by line upon line is that you need to take our line our history who we are how we're going to deal with the same problem here at the end of the world and how do we know how to do that one of the things we need to understand is how the same problem got created how it was here and then you need to go back into history and pick up certain key people it's always sensible to pick up the easier ones and interrogate their lives to see what went wrong in their lives because what went wrong with them helps us to understand what's gone wrong with us and what sorted their lives out if they got sorted out helps us to understand what sorts of our lives out and whenever try to approach this that I'm going for three people us Adam and Lucifer and my premise is this wherever our problem is it was the same problem that Lucifer had and it was the same problem that Adam had and people object to that because their argument or their Trump is if you go back to Lucifer particularly and you say well why did he do what he did they're gonna pull up a spirit of prophecy quote and say it was a mystery it's unexplainable and my premise my argument is that it's not a mystery it's clear it's obvious if you reason through what happened why it happened now there are some things that are mysterious about it but that mysterious thing that Ellen White and she uses this thing like it still was a mystery or he did it was a mystery why he did what he did and people are gonna miss read that and I think it's a cloak to promulgate their own agendas and I don't say that in a malicious way because it sounds like people have got this dark idea but it's that very idea that they just mentioned and I'm saying design of ages six a five paragraph see that's what the Sadducees are doing they've got some pet theory they've got some lifestyle thing that they enjoy or they hate one of the two cuz they're both the same just two sides of the same coin you have a hate life or you love-life and when you do that you develop a theory that's like comfort food instead of facing reality for what it really is you have to make the application because I don't know what you're picking up to say that okay so you make an application of his equal 37 and making a prophetic application I mean she's great in Ezekiel 37 I would say yeah how you go about doing that I don't know because there's something you'd have to dis God you'd have to take out what the prophetic significance of that is because you can't then talk about the same particles you're only picking certain pits up if you're going to do that we're not going to do it this time because I just no go back to what we're studying it says here they're going to bear the same individual features one thing that another query another question people have asked is about the leaves from the tree of life that are going to heal the Nations and how does that work if we're already got new bodies why do we need to be healed in heaven so I'm not going to address that one but maybe we'll do that another day what's what's all that language about what do we need to be healed with and some people use that argument which is almost like the Sadducees which is very strange that they say you actually go to heaven with damage I don't know what they mean by damage but I suspect them in physical damage and then when you eat from the tree of life those leaves are going to heal that damage that's being done we all know that when you get to heaven you're all going to be different sizes are we aware of that so if you were five foot five when you die when you resurrect you're gonna be five foot five so when Adam looks at us he's gonna say that's called bad even though we're perfect so I mean there's things that are going to happen about growing up and you know Adventists have their own thoughts and ideas about that but you're not careful you can introduce some serious misconceptions about what's going happen what what's happening especially when it comes to the issue of the healing that's happening in heaven we won't tackle that and oh there's one more thing from 6bc 1093 i want to pick up it says okay I can't find it oh the spirit the character of man is returned to God and they're preserved in the resurrection every man will have his own character and I'm going to add the word back if you're following through when you die the spirit which is the character of man goes back to God and there it's preserved in the resurrection every man will have his own character back so there's something about your personality there isn't obliterated and I think this issue came up almost at the beginning of our class about you know when the Bible talks man becomes a living soul and he gets formed and the breath of life comes into him that breath of life that comes into him that kick-starts him I think has multiple levels and I don't fully understand all that's going on there when man becomes a living soul because when man dies and that living soul no longer exists there's something that's preserved in heaven so I'll just read it as it says the spirit the character of man is returned to God they're to be preserved so whatever UI that character is preserved and when it gets put back in with this new body you end up being the same person that you were in the life that you had here this mortal life there's there's no difference between the two that's the same person so when God gives us life Adam he's creative here eclair city we have that breath of life when that breath gets taken out of us it's not just energy and it's not just the holy spirit there's something more to it which I can't fully put my hands on character and personality cause if they're interchangeable terms and she's taking seeking clarity it's the Catholic wouldn't that make perfect sense because if we can stand here without a mediator wouldn't that mean that that our character is set isn't that something God wants to keep of ours without that what is the point of doing anything here character and personality today the same thing say what's character for moral character so your thoughts and your feelings of character and personality character impression okay a marker figure that's character yes is that sounded pretty good definition of the ceiling your character your thoughts and feelings all get sorted out but personality is individuality so am I wrong to say that it lives again bearing the same individual individuality of features not just physical but even non-physical if you're a bubbly person here would you still be a bubbly person there if you're a quite person now would you still be a quiet person you think that'd be fake I've understood that what we tend to do is when we come to judge one another is we judge us we judge one what we allow to judge each other on people don't like judging but I think we're required to so would you judge people on their personality or on their character sorry so when you say their fruit is the fruit the fruit of the character or the fruit of their personality so I'm just gonna go back to the same place thoughts and feelings together for moral character so I think just from that statement I think we have the clewd that when we judge people we judge their character and so that would say that our character is the thing that needs to be straightened out but personality I think even in the definition if I pick you up correctly it says it's it's not connected to morality so if you're a quiet person it's it's amoral it doesn't have any morality to attach that says it lives again yes that's why I just write and I'm saying that's not just in the physical being it's also in this of what makes you who you are so I can see if God doesn't take or God does not interfere with your individuality I mean I'm not talking about i sister Kathy says that I'm not a smiley person I'm so persons normally look at my face our feature that you might think whatever it is they think but that's my individuality it's not a flaw so will this Ellen White mean I'll give it in a really bad paraphrase when you go to church you shouldn't look glum she don't need to be smiling and look cheerful because we want to give a good testimony of what it means to be a Christian and when we say to people why are you looking so miserable for what about if this person was just a morose person is morose with the right way to express it just naturally in their personality depressive what do we do with someone like that do we say snap out of it yes that's what I'm saying we do that because when we base but we've got spirit proxy backing to do that is that what she means when she says we were supposed to smile when you come to church so if I'm glum all the time when I'm depressed oh it shows and so if you go to church if I go to church be him like the other day sister Cathy came to me and she said are you okay and I'm sure my face I'm not always bubbly and smelling like an Tanisha but she could tell that okay though she is not always that something is wrong so there is a distinction and dear friends that you can tell with somebody when something is wrong even if their disposition is one that is normal so what does she mean when you go to church you need to smile what does she mean by that brother Jonathan you know what she means so if you had a death in the family you're still supposed to smile did you mean that I will suggest yes I will suggest if you if you go ahead and go into a bad experience you go to church and you want to testify that even though you have these trials and vicissitudes of life you have a hope you have a confidence in God the smiling is not being overcome by a situation or circumstance that you're in but she's not saying if you're a quiet person you need to suddenly become an extrovert you actually need to change your personality and that's what we tended to do we want to change people because we mix personality and character together incorrectly Kathy was told don't Aaron don't act like that's any big deal because that was a bad guy so same thing would go with us as we walked into church if we're told that we're supposed to be friendly and and cordial and smile that we need to put ourself in subjection to God and do what's right yeah so I gave a really horrible example because if it was a bad person or even if it was a Christian you have hope of the Resurrection and you want to show people that you believe you practice what you preach you have confidence that it's true but we do that and we twist it to say every person however personality issue whatever your personality is you all need to behave and look the same and we end up judging people on that as well so if someone's talkative we end up saying they must be a sinner because they talk too much or if they're really quiet they can't be following the principle because they're not teaching the message so someone I'm not coming up the front or I'm gonna be a public speaker and I get these you if you travel you get this question all the time does that mean um I'm falling foul of God because I don't like standing up before people I just can't do that am i sinning and we're gonna be lost and the answer is no because not everybody is required to stand up front just like not everybody is required to go into full-time ministry but they're all required to teach in whatever capacity that we have the other problem we have is the issue of different talents just different capabilities another pressure that we have I noticed is that people expect everybody to understand everything the same way we are supposed to have five talents each and it's just not that way okay so they would to the questions hopefully they've been cleared up a little bit by our conversation we spoke yesterday about the rain and we were talking about horses and did anybody else have any thoughts on that my sister you have to speak louder than that how can you tell us when you found it you found it go ahead Acts of the Apostles three 11.1 I'm gonna start in the middle of the paragraph though because that's the part that picks up if that's okay how where the how much how much more important that the Christian whose eternal interests are at stake bring appetite and passion under subjection to reason and the will of God never must he allow his attention to be diverted by amusements luxuries or ease all his habits and passions must be brought under the strictest discipline reason enlightened by the teachings of God's Word and guided by his spirit must hold the reins of control and what's that saying well everything has to be our head lifters of a study on the will of God everything has to be brought under God's control that's what that passage says why are you reading it for you don't really know what the passage says if you brought it to us sorry I didn't appreciate James chapter 3 verse 1 and onward why would we go to James chapter 3 I'll begin reading because he's not verse 1 that I want my brethren be not many masters knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation don't even word verse 2 it begins in verse 2 for in many things we offend all If any man offend not in word the same is a perfect man and able also to bridle the whole body behold we put in the horse's mouth so behold we put bits in the horse's mouth that they may obey us and we turn about the whole body behold also the ships which are which though they be so great and are driven or fierce winds are yet turned about with every small with a very small helm whithersoever the governor lists earth even so the tongue is a little member and boast its great things behold how great a matter a little fire a little fire Kindle it so you want to stop there it was verse 3 because someone brought up the concept of about horses and things and I don't if it if we remember the discussion someone said that the horse is the whole body and someone said no the horse isn't the whole body it's the lower passions so then if that kind of helps the discussion for me it's kind of the bow things because in Adventist home we read that the lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it I think he says work through it so when we when we struggled to say is the horse the lower passions or is the horse the whole being I think at one level it's the same thing but you can see clearly here that these reins that are used to control you controlled the whole body just through the horse's mouth with the Brit and bright at the bit and the bridle etc so I think people who said that were probably both correct but if the horse is definitely the whole body if you want to read that for what it's what it is just go back to 2 T 3 for 8 paragraph 1 just to tidy up some loose ends on that this is what we read yesterday just miss the church volume 2 page 348 paragraph 1 I'll just read the proportion that we want to pick up the lower passions of their nature have taken the reins and that which should be the governing power has become the servant of corrupt passion so corrupt passion is the lower passions we can define that and these lower passions of their nature have taken the reins and that which should be the governing power has become the servant so you've got two things I'm going to insert into this that the governing power are the higher powers says governing which means they're the rulers that the rightful rulers have now become the servants and the lower passions have taken control I think everybody can see that that's relatively straightforward one thing I want to pick up it says the lower passions of their nature so she's separating their nature from the lower passions so what is the nature it's everything if we want to go with that it's all of this put together it's what you are and when I say all of it it's the mine the moral in this lower passions it's the whole thing but I want to also include the body it's also including the members it's the whole thing the lower passions have of their nature have taken control of everything the reason why this is important we haven't addressed this but if you remember it spoke about the noble thought and there was a discussion where are these noble thoughts are the noble thoughts which the influence was higher are they here in the mind or are they here in the heart where the thoughts reside because thoughts and feelings are what moral character so I want to say we're not going to we haven't quite got to that point but we want to think where are these thoughts and feelings because maybe you'll see that I'm edging to it to it we often think that there are over here in the mind and by definition if you're going to talk about nobility what would nobility be how would you define nobility I know you could write King another definition of it if someone was noble greatness sorry royal prince appalled does it give anything else is this your mother dignity will go with principle in dignity so let's go with lust is lust can it be dignified can it have dignity or is it just ugly you don't put your hand up you look today so yes can lust be dignified you told us that the other day that's why he didn't put his hand up anger can anger be dignified yeah so what we described when we talk about anger lust it's not here it's here so even though it might seem counterintuitive to begin with because these are higher and these are lower we tend to think these lower things are bad and hopefully we've come to the place now that we're not thinking that they're bad they're not inherently bad and not only they're not inherently bad even though they're called lower the lower doesn't mean in worse it means whatever it may be in responsibility in control but nobility I'm suggesting by its very definition has to be pointing in this direction not this direction and it might not seem that way when you first think about it because when women when they eat when the idea came up and someone said no ball higher kingly power because that's what Noble means a king and who's supposed to be the king is this supposed to be the king or is this supposed to be the king clear this is because this is the governing power we've just read that over and over Cain so if you think about it you might be leading to go to this place where you think about nobility sister shower head hang up look at the definition of it it's of the word list that's a longing desire so we can walk after good dance yep so I think sometimes maybe and I bring we get it that we're thinking of the negative connotation and not thinking of the positive I don't even think sometimes I think the vast majority of the time any kind of emotion has got a negative spin on it it's it's and the reason is because we allow our experience to do what control our religion it shapes and molds our religion and it's really dangerous we're driven by our experience and we and we're not supposed to what we supposed to be driven by we're on this message which base to be driven by the lines the lines are supposed to control us so just take that one point as a man thinketh in his heart so when this issue came up and people saying clear noble thoughts thoughts are up here because they're controlling the higher things someone threw that verse out so you know that the heart can think so that's one point the heart is able to think and you okay so your question is therefore what is the mind remember only this is a parable it's not real yeah there's no real lower passion it's not lower geographically you know over and over again you've already done that to that Bible verse the symbol that we've given for this is a heart and it's not one that I made up the symbol of the lower passion is the heart why is that because it's just a parable it's not a real heart and a symbol for this mind intellect is the brain but it's not the brain and it's not the heart it's this the faculties of your being this is the issue about I I think about what's mysterious and how is supposed to deal with the mysterious we're supposed to try and break it down and God graciously gives us a lot of information on how to do it but we have to do it carefully not with preconceived ideas not with our own agendas everybody comes into any kind of study with some kind of preconceived ideas and that's why it takes so long to break them down and that's why I think group study is good because when I come to this I've got my own preconceived ideas and it's hard to tell them and keep them under subjection so one thing I want to say when we read the spirit of prophecy and people don't like me saying this and I think they miss read what I'm saying you have to be careful how you read and I don't want to go to the extent and saying you take it with a pinch of salt but if you're going to say you have to give allow her poetic license or not to be too literal we need to be careful how we read people will abuse that and they'll say things like you I have to read it as it is or they'll say she's not an accurate author she's not carefully no words and that sends you to a place where you end up going to become demon-possessed if I can use that kind of strong language when you say she's not a careful writer and I'm not trying to suggest that at all she's very precise in her language and I've demonstrated that you know to the degree where she's gonna put punctuation marks she's gonna guide you in what she's saying but if you don't take some of the rules if you don't take the rule that you have to look at the first sentence look at the last sentence look at the leading paragraph look where she does grammar what's the theme of what's is discussed what's the backdrop of all of that so you can look back from a distance and go back into it she has to do all of that to be able to understand the point she's making because sometimes she's making a point and she's gonna say mind and she's gonna interchange mind with what we're now saying is heart because I'm saying if you use this analogy you can't have an angry mind but she'll give you some statements where you consider your tone you've gotten like an angry mind so if we're not careful we miss reading and manipulate what she's saying so that's the point I wanted to pick up the lower passions of their nature have taken their reins this is the whole idea about you know we said what was the horse and what wasn't the nature is the whole beingness the whole package and the lower passions have taken control and they're apt to do that why they apt to do that because they had this seat in the body and not only did they had this seat in the body our whole understanding of what this looks like I think we've bring our own preconceived ideas into it and one of them is we have noble thoughts in the mind and we have corrupt thoughts in the heart and then and we and the reason we do that is because we all know we're desperately wicked you know and we're with all that wickedness be in the heart so the heart couldn't do anything noble or good and so that must be all in the higher powers and these models are not correct so we've read that one I want to read one more which is connected to this Testament of the church volume four thirty one point one forty thirty one point one forty thirty one point one as you're finding that I'm just going to read back to what we've just read the lower passions of the nature taking the reigns and then she says that which should be the governing power so she's going to call it he's going to call the other thing the governing power and the reason why we gained 240 because she's going to call this same thing something different and we're going to go to another passages and called the same thing something different so the governing power I'm saying are the higher powers which we got from Adventist home so here she calls it governing powers and 40 she's going to say this I'm going to go to the last paragraph so he last sentence of the paragraph will read it in Templars of any kind is the worst sort of selfishness those who truly fear God and keep his Commandments look upon these things in the light of Reason and religion how can any man or woman keep the law of God which requires man to love his neighbor as himself and indulge in tempura appetite which be numbs the brain weakens the intellect and fills the body with disease in temperance inflames the passions and gives loose rein to lust here's this loose rein they depart I want to pick up it says and reason and conscience are blinded by the lower passions so she's got the lower passions and it says something was made blind by them so what was made blind reason all she's doing is defining these higher powers in different language so we can get a broader but clearer understanding of what the higher powers are and just do one more is that that's relatively straightforward I think and we agree that that's what the higher powers are we've got reason and conscience this is Christian Temperance and Bible hygiene CT b h CT bh 1 to 9 paragraph 2 CT bh 1 to 9 paragraph 2 i'll read from the beginning of the paragraph and I'll tell you when I'll get to the point that I want to and again she's going to define this in a slightly different language some will acknowledge the evil of sinful indulgences yet will excuse themselves by saying they cannot overcome their passions this is a terrible admission for a Christian to make its identical virtually to what we've already read yeah let everyone that name is the name of Christ depart from iniquity why is this weakness it is because men and women has so long pampered their depraved appetites that they have no power of self government because the lower passions of their nature have taken the reigns and high moral principle which should be the governing power is gone so now what's he added in here the high moral principle that's all relatively straightforward the reason why I want to do that is because I want us to when we start thinking about this we've got the mind and the moral or the mind and the spiritual it's got its cut it comes across he's different in different ways she wants to start explaining it in different with different words and that's going to help us to bring clarity to it I'm suggesting so where would you put reason here or here where would you put reason in the mind here so we've got moral and now she's usually where would you put conscience moral so I wonder I want us to think about conscience and we'll just throw it in here but we haven't read it another one we're going to look at is will so where would the will go would it be here or here my sister's is mine well okay we'll leave we'll link because we're not I leave will for the moment let's think a little bit about conscience what's the okay know the first thing is is conscience you part of you not you or your entire tree is it part of you yes so we've all got a conscience everybody's okay with that so when you were created when you were put together if that's you when you were born that's you when you were born have you got a conscience everybody agrees with that so what is a conscience let's try to define what our conscience is okay so it's the ability to know right and wrong so let me ask this without God because there's no God in this person is there God isn't here without God do you know what's right and wrong yeah it's in built into to know what right and wrong is we agree with that any other definition for right and wrong I've got conscience and we've got right and wrong and information okay so the information would be held in here in the moral or somewhere else he didn't say that where it was he just said it needs to be nice can you just repeat it needs to be tempered with correct information okay so information well where's information being held in the intellect so if it's going to be tempered by anything it must be tempered with the information that's held here what determines what is right and wrong is it you just said you just agreed that it was information let me ask you is it right to eat someone's brain is it correct to eat someone's brain eat it dat okay the reasons I say it that way is because we all understand the word cannibalism but I don't I'm not sure if we understand what cannibalism is cannibalism isn't the necessity to eat some food is it it's a rhetorical question because it isn't cannibalism is to take on the spirituality of one being and imprint it into our own being so they eat certain parts of their enemies and where is their enemy it's in their brain so that's why they eat they eat because they want to take on the the nature of that person they might eat a you know a bit of their body or something but the whole purpose of cannibalism is not to is not for human sustenance when you look at cultures that do it so when they eat these beer enemy's brains when they when they cannibalize them and they doing anything wrong I'm sorry yeah it's no they're not doing anything wrong the information base says if you want to get to heaven if you want to survive what you need to do is kill that warrior and when you kill the warrior you eat his brain it's like the Pantheon because you then become the pantene you take on him by eating him and everything that he had he just adds it on to you so if you were a fast runner and he was a good swordsman and you managed to get him in a battle when you eat his brain now you become a good swordsman it's just I mean it's common sense it's it makes sense doesn't it it makes sense to me if God said if God wrote something and I want to get that word and make it my own what would I have to do I have to eat it it to meat makes perfect sense I'm not sure why you'd say it it's crazy yeah I'm not trying to talk about the rights and wrongs of do but the whole mindset is correct it's its proper religion isn't it I don't know why we find that that's fine okay I don't want to call it sick because I think it's an insult of their religion and their religion is based upon true religion I'm going to say it is I'm not going to ask use your not answer it is it's correct I'm saying it it's correct the problem is it's not their morality it's not immoral behavior it's not immoral for me to open the Bible and get that word and eat it this is the problem with John six isn't it Jesus doing anything immoral then that's Jesus oh come on that's a cop-out answer then it's DS it it's the same thing the principle is the same so if it's if it's okay for Jesus do it it's okay for these people do it the problem is their information base they're naughty moral people did perfect morale because they're not going to go to their wife and say you know I'm hungry today let's chop your your Scuttler scarf and have some food they don't do that it's extremely moralistic they don't go eating everyone's brains it's a ritual it's a religious festival it's not like food oh okay don't think that helps me oh okay so moral okay sorry yeah that does help so even it yeah it's good yes so it's right and wrong which is morality and I think the information base is over here so I'm not worried about the information base so is it wrong to go to church on Sunday Jan Souris depends on your information base doesn't it because you have to draw the information from here which has been put in and then you have to make some decisions about what's right and wrong so it's all predicated on good information a lot of us have bad information yeah we argue we tackle this issue is it wrong to eat pork are you defiled and we went to the passage there and we hopefully we all came to the conclusion eating pork does not defile you it messes up the machinery of the body messing up the machinery of the body can make it extremely hard for this to function properly but it doesn't defile you I've seen like not so everybody's agreed agrees with that so anything passed right and wrong or is it just that simple okay you will Mele find it or add any more to it we don't have to I'm just done doing two minutes the information says it's acceptable behavior so that's relatively straightforward the moral says we're going to do what's right and we're gonna do what's wrong and they have a society that's feudal that's warring and it's right to survive it's right to protect your family it's it's it would be immoral to sit back become fat and lazy and let another tribe come and kill your children and take your wife that would be moral it would be dereliction of duty so you have to do something about that and what you have to do is train and part of your training is not just your own physical training because you're going to meet someone who's going to be good and so as you take down these Warriors you want to improve and the improvement is not just in the body it's also in this I call it the soul or the spirit in the heart of someone you know it you could have big people but it doesn't mean they're brave so it I think is an extremely moral thing that they're doing it's it's it's preserving life keeping society going it's doing all good things but but if that answers your question subjectivity is based upon the information not the mechanism this conscience this conscience has the ability to know what is to do what is right and what is wrong it says I know what's right and I know what's wrong it's wrong to do this and it's right today that's right to do that because they don't eat the brains of women why wouldn't you do that because women are I'm not going to go out in and battle and war they're not going to do that to children they're not going to do that they're not gonna eat the brains of the weak people of the weak warriors and if someone ran away and they killed him and shot me in the back not my cell let's eat his brain because it would weaken you so they're doing what's right and not doing what's wrong yeah based upon their information base so you've got a consciousness and it's all yours there's something else that conscience is but we're not picking it up unless I've got a wrong definition of conscience or what an inner voice that's the one I'm looking for what would it in a voice mean what does that mean what I think we would know what it means those it's right it's what gets a free Nia okay what is that what does that mean this inner voice that's where it is but what would it what is it because it's connected to your conscience what does your conscience do conviction and conviction makes you feel bad which is part of this thing but I want to pick up these two things the purpose was the conscience is to convict you and the issue of right and wrong so it doesn't just say this is right and wrong if you don't do right it makes you feel bad yeah it convicts you that what you're doing is wrong now you might say I don't feel bad about that I feel pretty good about it because your lower passions are in control but it has the ability to we could we could end up going into the Cupra definition of conviction but I just leave it a conviction here the reason why I want to bring that up in the last few minutes is if this is the wrong of conscience let's go to here and this is the time of the end why would why am i picking the time at the end what happens at the time at the end come out darkness increase of knowledge sorry okay John 16 verse a when he the comforter come he shall do what I had lots of answers I saw mr. Moore so he's going to convict so if the Holy Spirit is going to convict you or convince you of sin what's he doing what role is he taking up he's taking up the role of the conscience so my question is if you were into surgery now and they opened you up and they took the conscience out and they closed it back up would you be a human being it's a parable just think of it I agree with that you know there's many but just take it as a parable you can go into person you can take it out if you take it out human being is composed of four things a mind conscience lower passions and the body so he's got four if you just think of those four parts if you took one of them out what would that person what would that thing be would it be a human being it wouldn't it because it's not the same thing as the original model it's different so when you go from here to here you don't pull out conscience it has to still be in there just like your fingers have to be in there your higher powers you have to be the same thing and then what makes this point because if you start taking things out or adding things in priests in and posts in what does that say about God that he made a mistake it's his fault that things have gone wrong or that Satan has creative power one of the two and then you get problems that Satan put something into us and what would he put into us sin we've already discussed that sin is not a thing sin is not a thing that can be put into you or taken out of you it doesn't have that quality about it and that's what Ellen White means when she says it's the mystery so if the Holy Spirit now is going to start doing this thing taking control of your conscience why is it doing that while we beginning our reform line at a place where the Holy Spirit is doing something that's already part of your being why is the Holy Spirit doing what you were doing the role of this higher power why is he doing that if you've already got a conscience so my sister said it's dead do we really believe that from here to here that it's not functioning because when Adam sins and yet and he's in this condition our condition what's he feeling he's feeling conviction because he runs away so it's not dead it's it's functioning fine it's been corrupted what does that mean it's been corrupted I'm suggesting and I've already inferred this so I'm probably going to start making it stronger that this and this were not corrupted when you go from here before sin to after sin because this is just like a data file like a computer program you plug in the numbers and you're always going to get the same answer over and over again so it's just like a mathematical calculation if you do two plus two it's always going to work out two before it was for here for here for here for it the processing is always the same I'm saying the when we talk about full and corrupt nature the corruptness or the fallenness wasn't in this and it wasn't in this in the sense of the mechanism by which those things operate how do you get information from the book to yourself how do you eat the book sorry you read yeah you were reading before sing and you're reading after sin when that words that read go into your through your eyes how does it get through your eyes into your brain the mechanism of of how that happened hasn't changed it's always been the same it hasn't been corrupted what's what has been corrupted is all of this what's been corrupted is our definition of what lust is yeah it's lust that's been corrupted it's anger that's been corrupted were all those things but the mechanism by which this thing works hasn't been corrupted if it works perfectly well and we'll go with this moral and I'm saying one example of the moral one feature of it is the conscience and the conscience knows what's right and wrong and it's the inner voice of conviction and we're saying or suggesting that this has been corrupted and I'm saying it has not been corrupted that's so I want to bring up this idea about the searing because you're gonna pick up the Bible verse that says how conscious that has been said I want us to try to think what that actually means because if we're not careful it means that the mechanism of this doesn't work properly and if he didn't work properly I think I'll have a hard time sorting us out it would be like someone who has some kind of mental condition and you can't approach the person in a normal way they have to be approached a different way or you just have to say you know what it's incurable we just have to live with the person so I can't remember the person's name filius someone who had the Pope through his brain which is the point that sister Kathy's bringing up you can't say to them get your act together you know it's wrong to be angry all the time or morose and he doesn't he won't even respond he has to be treated in a unique special way which is not the plan of salvation wait it's a different way it's a special unique case and we're not talking about special need cases our with we're talking about the whole issue of humanity in the same problem so my my premise is this that none of us have had polls through our brains and the mechanism of the way the conscience works what it does and how it functions has not been damaged and we're going to try and demonstrate that tomorrow I'm sorry that I didn't get a chance to address your point let's pray Heavenly Father we want to thank you for your goodness and mercy as we try to unravel the mysteries of our creation and of our being we want to thank you Lord that we have got the great privilege of having access to the spirit of prophecy that can help and guide us in this adventure we know the necessity of putting away sin out of our lives long as we understand ourselves help each of us this day to honor and to glorify you maybe we're not making excuses for our behavior our condition our nature but may we all of us rise to the challenge of being sons and daughters of God and serving one another in spirit and in truth and with kindness in Jesus name we pray amen