(10-31-17) - Animal Propensities - (9-xxFmVPRPM)




Publish Date: 10/31/2017
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the Adventists home page 127 paragraph 2 we're told that every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ all animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul I gave you some homework last week to have a look at what animal propensities are is anybody come to any conclusions similar I'm gonna say animal propensities equals what lower Packers sister Lisa illustrate details fornication just kind of succinctly what what I don't repent of these are their passions and you've come to I'm some example you st. help occasion uncleanliness people covetousness and the mating into idolatry anger anyone else I would look so now I knew just the definition of a tendency is it's the natural inclination to do something widget the way tendency to oh sorry propensity a propensity search isn't on the word present for entity propensity so it's a natural tendency or natural inclination natural inclination so if it's animal then if I'm from Green would go to sisters but it must be something that we're naturally inclined to do is that the output you say need slow passions yes there's no passions and then now you have that bit so you want to put a pen to use with paint no not yet I might go into the class saying it's a bait okay it's not what inclined is yes burglary she ties it in with spirit parts who was spiritualism animal propensities equal spiritualism yes and what spiritualism well she's tied in with being self-indulgent pleasure-loving sensual and then she says spiritualism presents itself under a less soldiers disguise and then she goes and she's talking about animal densities in that court but in that paragraph so you say annual takes these equal spiritualism you know type the spiritualism I think we have to read that paragraph yeah you see maybe eight five five five point three yes what now GC five five five paragraph three trying to write back yep - the self-indulgent the pleasure love in the central spiritualism presents itself under a less so disguise then to the more refined and intellectual in its grosser forms they find that which is in harmony with their inclinations Satan studies every indication of the frailty of human nature he marks the sins which each individual is inclined to commit and then he takes care that opportunities shall not be wanting to gratify the tendency to do to evil he tempts men to excess in that which isn't it itself lawful causing them through in temperance to weaken physical mental and moral power he has destroyed and is destroying thousands through the indulgence of passions thus brutalizing the entire nature of man and to complete his work he declares through the spirits that true knowledge places man above all law that whatsoever is is right that God does not condemn and that all sins which are committed are innocent when the people are thus led to believe that desire is the highest law that Liberty is license and that man is accountable only to himself who can wonder that corruption and depravity team on every hand multitudes eagerly accept teachings that leave them at liberty to obey the promptings of the carnal heart the reins of self-control are laid upon the neck of lust the powers of minders and soul are made subject to the animal propensities and Satan exalted Li sweeps into his neck thousands profess to be followers of Christ so you think that definition tells you that I know pledge states in spiritualism it's it's linking them together because she's talking about the nature she's talking about indulgence all these different things that line up with the lower passions of the day I don't think I don't think it is I think it's saying that the way he leads us into spiritualism is through our natural lower nature but there's a and I don't have the book in front of me but there was a point in there where she says they they lay the reins of what was it on the neck of lust something I got it's they had the choice to they get tempted through that Avenue but you don't necessarily have to fall when you fall then you're drawn into spiritualism oh yeah but the reins of self-control are laid upon the neck of lust the powers of - or made subject to the animal propensities but you don't have to lay those reins down let me read something I was just seeing the quote talked about spiritualism an animal pen cities not about if we were to make animal propensity spiritualism you get into problems like this this is from child guidance on 4th to paragraph 1 I just can read one sentence he says children are born with the animal propensities largely developed so if you're going to take that and substitute it for spiritualism would be saying that where children are born all of them are into spiritualism and I don't think we'd believe that would we we wouldn't say you know when every child is born they're all into spiritualism even when they don't know anything so I'll take that one off I think what it seems to be teaching is that how do you read it now to me well what animal Prentiss does even just from that passage okay someone else said sister all the paint brother married artists an inclination or natural tendency it is the natural necessities like eating sleeping procreation and defense that's what animal densities are it's eating eating sleeping procreation defense the need for defense it is the natural needs of the body natural needs as an area yes I have a quote here GC 456 paragraph 2 which speaks of all to see him speak several of self-programming and that's CJ not GC yeah suji I'm asking you yes yes CJ yeah so they'll read that some will acknowledge the evil of sinful indulgences that's the one yeah yet will excuse themselves by saying they cannot overcome their passions this is a terrible admission for any person to make who names Christ let everyone that name is the name of Christ depart from iniquity why is this weakness it is because the animal propensities have been strengthened by exercise until they have gained the ascendancy over the higher powers when the women lack principle they are dying spiritually because they have so long pampered their natural appetites but their power of self-indulgence seems God but our passions of their nature have taken the reins and that which should be the governing power has become the servant of corrupt passion the soul is held in lowest bondage sensuality has quenched the desire for holiness and withered spiritual prosperity so did you want to go through that with us yep we'll walk us through what you what you see I just read it for you so it was easy for people to hear so it seems to me that it is speaking about indulging the inclination to do to do that which is wrong because it says as it speaks about losing self-government and allowing the lower passions to move to death so take ascendancy over the higher powers did that define what involves day what you just said that so I think it would be like animal propensities would be like give me a show to do okay it's originally found in Tootsie it's a test mr. Church volume 2 page 348 paragraph 1 they they cut out that paragraph and they put it into child guidance which is which is okay but in Tootsie it's it's a larger passage that's been addressed so I just want to walk through these this paragraph because it's a really important paragraph she's going to repeat in a large over and over again when she goes through this some will acknowledge the evil of sinful indulgence yet will excuse themselves by saying that they cannot overcome their passions so what's the first bit they're saying some will they've knowledge the evil of sinful indulgences what does that mean so passions must be okay so I'm speaking up 2/3 I'm running what the first part is I will acknowledge the evil of eve of sinful indulgences so you know we're going to have a party and a special treat so we're going to order cupcakes so a written cupcakes of synths are they the indulgences yeah our indulgences sinful and do we acknowledge it before we say oh I know I shouldn't but I will do we do stuff like that so is that a no acknowledgment that what we're doing is indulging in something sinful because we say we shouldn't do it but we're gonna anyway I'm not saying cupcakes are sinful I'm saying if people make that assertion it's naughty but nice and we really shouldn't be doing these things but we will anyway because of whatever reason we want to do it and we acknowledging that that activity is a sinful indulgence it's that an example of that a good indulgence 18:3 mangoes for breakfast for me we could indulge in mangoes and it wouldn't be sinful I don't know what I think people consider three mangoes intemperate if you're a hard-working man and you're going to eat nine hundred calories a thousand kinds of breakfast that could be five pieces of toast plus whatever you put on that would that be indulgent so if you saw someone eating a sandwich in the head for piece of the bread would that be indulgent your mind five bowls of cereal that would probably be overindulging because it would depend on the quantity and of the amounts of food you're having but if you're eating if you're overeating then there is indulging I thought my understanding of indulging is when the Bible talks about drunkenness and yeah but how will five bowls of cereal with drunkenness if you're a big man we're not eating with strength or eating with drunkenness how'd you know how much a six book 200-pound man needs a weak person that everyone is capable of overeating no matter what their size is we all can do that yeah so I'm just taking out the number five because it could be one big bowl might be too much as on one eye because I'm just looking at the word indulgence and it's not a good definition then you ask the question is there such a thing that or what give an example of a good indulgence yeah but you're saying the word didn't own you sitting in there myself is negative so how could you have a good one you couldn't have a good white indulgence I don't think there is out again just your three mangoes at breakfast may be perfectly fine but if you were to eat those three mangoes in between breakfast and lunch then it becomes more clearly a sin indulge in silence well somebody else was to miss out on a mango because you think the more yeah what did she say if I stole someone else's mango they want to eat them and there's only three there and I'm taking them all so similar in doubt the word indulgence is negative by definition is gratification as the indulgence of lust or appetite yeah that's before but this is number one gratification is there anything wrong with gratifying our appetite miss Li synched you know we spoken the number of times that the lower passions in and of themselves are not necessarily bad sister olive anus said it natural needs which we all have so she's given animal propensities a positive spin well is she reading from also definition someone acknowledged the evil of sinful indulgences yet will excuse themselves by saying that they cannot overcome their passions solovey is it an adjective isn't it clarifying if it says why didn't she say so may not knowledge the evil of indulgences because lust and passion indulgences are what their natural could be good to be back and be fine this is she mother yeah I mean she's from what I can see she's speaking about the negative here okay so I'm just making sure that you agree yeah the indulgences are not bad yes yeah I'm not going to base it on the definition which I read in the dictionary that's it because I'm reading it as there's indulgences and then there's overindulging as well which I find overindulging is a sin I'm doing dodging or normally indulging is fine that's what you just say just indulging isn't bad then is it yes indulging is it just doesn't sound like a nice word to me it's just for me to smile and hopefully we've been able to overcome up yeah preconceived ideas and prejudices I just change I'm saying Jen you know all of us because we all have this idea that the lower passions are bad and we need to get rid of them like it's wrong to have lust or passion or indulgences hopefully we'll be seen that that's not correct so what these Christians doing they excuse themselves by saying they cannot overcome their passions so the passions of this thing here the lower passions are okay with that and these people say we can't help it do we do that do we say we can't help it and she says in the next sentence this is a terrible admission for any person to make who names Christ any thoughts but when it says the excuse what does that mean they yet they will excuse themselves the so they're going to justify their behavior by saying you know actually the reason I'm doing this I know it's bad but I just can't help it is that true that they can't help it they can't overcome their lower passions because they're lower passions this annual per entity is saying I want that thing and I'm gonna go for it and their their responses and though it's bad that what I'm doing but but I can't help it why is it it's legal it's okay because there is no excuse for sin so if if I have a sinful indulgence and I say I can't help it then it's not sinful it's like an oxymoron because if I acknowledge that it is sinful yet I say there's nothing I can do about it I mean God how because I'm seeing that I'm in a condition that is irreparable irredeemable I can't help being I am so if I can't be Who I am what are the options that I give God all the options you see that's going to take me as I am Oh or do like he does with these nails that have no mind that maybe I define every or I'm putting it to the extreme give you an a botany and let's take your brain out so you can't ever do it again would likely be made a robot so it could make you a robot or it could accept you with all your problems which you're never going to change or you're just going to wipe you out there is options just a test it's talking about our information so it's saying it's our inclination to follow our lower passions I think the propensity part so I think when she's talking about this she's talking about I've been to be controlled by it and that's what people struggle with because it's harder to go against it it's harder to walk uphill then downhill what you say I say animal propensities as being slightly different to lower passions because it's talking about our inclination our bent towards being controlled by the rotations and I think that's what people struggle is because it's harder to walk up hills and down hill and it's an uphill struggle yes I've read on some will acknowledge the evil of indulgent sinful indulgences bar yet will excuse themselves and the excuses that they cannot overcome their passions and we've discussed this extensively this is the terrible admission for any person to make who names Christ let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity so that quote that she's putting there is a response to what they're supposed to do so when they these people who are going to name Jesus's name and they're going to depart from iniquity what's the mechanism of that how does that work yeah choice so if you name Jesus's name which means you say I'm a Christian what's he requiring you to do to make your choice but this person says I can't overcome no it means that a lie of when he said we can't are they lying when they can't overcome first sentence they excuse themselves by saying they cannot overcome their passions is that is that the truth or a lie so is it a lie because they're Christians or is it just a lie I said back I couldn't hear I didn't who said okay so it's a lie because they're a Christian what if they what if they weren't a Christian with it will it be a justifiable life will it be a lie they would still have a choice so it's a lie whether you're a Christian or not Christian these are higher power we pray or we ask for help when he gives us a promise there's all promises that we can claim the Bible for these deficiencies in our character I guess I just put it like that I understand that but I asked you if the person wasn't a Christian we'd be a truthful statement he's not Christian he's a Buddhist and he says I shouldn't indulge in cupcakes but I will and you know what I just can't help it is it a lie for him to say that okay I didn't hear that I didn't say I I don't know so let's work to that if you don't know then that means you're not sure if he's got the ability to choose because if he had the ability to choose it would be a blatant lie I'm asking what do you think he could do what's the best that he could do so if you say he can't say no that means he has the ability to say no he has the ability to say no dan is he lying when he says I can't say no because that's what he says he says I can't say no to the cupcake and these are Buddhist or an atheist or whatever and you're saying actually you're lying you wanted to stop you could I understand out there's getting example of an atheist how because it seems to me that's what you're saying so just confirming that's what you're saying you smile does that mean you agree I agree with what you're saying right I didn't say anything I just asking your question I think same thing I asked you can he choose or not choose so that means he's lying when he says I can't help it so if you were a saint to that that he said you know what cupcakes are bad I'm not gonna do it because I'd only put on weight and he's the ability to choose that what's the difference between him and the Christian if I'm asking is he lying or not lying and not asking whose strength he is doing in he says I can't do it let me stop there can he stop eating this food can he stop indulging if you want you to okay then if he says I can't stop yeah isn't he lying no say that I've got a disease or that the Christians have eating disorders so I don't know what why what difference that make neither of these people have got eating disorders I'll give an example this person doesn't have I'll give an example a person does not have an eating disorder he has a lower passion disorder we agree with that if that's what you want to call an eating disorder then everyone's got that but he says I can't help it I'm asking that can he help it or can he not help it so he said he's lying he says that he says I can't stop eating it but you say he could if he wanted to stop so I'm not saying is he lying what do you need to know about him he said you know that he can stop yeah so you know you can stop but he says so you know that as a fact and he says I can't why is that not a lie sorry someone said something okay so what's Alan White's point when she says this is the terrible admission for a Christian to make it was what was what we commanded as Christians not to do to lie she said any person first she said this is a terrible idea mission for any person to me that's Christian Christian but to me I'm thinking it's not only the person that names Christ that is that it's I think any person that admits that they to say they can't do something it's bad but it is for a Christian I I think that's the point I'm trying to get to but I don't think the passage in Italy so would do that so I'm asking what is the terrible admission why is it so bad for a Christian to do that everyone that name is the name of Christ depart from iniquity why is this weakness so what is the weakness that these Christians experiencing Oh see sometimes it doesn't believe in gravity it doesn't mean gravity doesn't exist well you ladies before you became a Christian and you're telling me you had a warped understanding day you couldn't stop yourself you didn't know that you couldn't stop yourself he said this person doesn't actually know where we can stop it off because he's got a warped sense of reality without acknowledging Christ that's a works of reality because there is a person there is there is Christ that's able to help us overcome because he has done it already so without acknowledging that part of existence that so before Jesus did anything or even came on earth so we couldn't do it then because he hadn't done it before before then and afterwards they never any more apples resent by eating another safety wasn't hanging around all over that time I think a lot of other things that they can keep attentively and they said they'd been there you said they delineate I'm just going with Adam and Eve okay so you're going back to the full-back position that this only works for Christians because non-christians have a warped sense of reality is denying something exists then that changes their sense of reality just like a person who denies gravity that works their sense of reality tell me what this is is denying being able to stop themselves yes and look outside of themselves for that power for that system show you what your saying is and eight years cannot manage it by himself that's what you could say you've got a double negative in there so I don't know what that means I'm asking trying to ask in a simple way he seems to me you're saying that an atheist cannot control themselves then why do you develop an argument say then it is true if you know it's not true and you clouded it with language like they have a warped sense of reality but then you're going to go back to a president saying actually it's nothing to do with that they could stop if they wanted to stop no they say they cannot I'm asking you is that a lie or is it the truth they say they cannot I guess I received that that example as being thatx that position where it actually is true that they cannot where that is remember that condition the condition is that condition is the human condition it's not an addiction it's a human condition the human condition is that they've got lower passions and they're approaching a problem and they know what they're about to do is wrong which makes it sinful and they say I know it's wrong they admit that it's wrong and they say I'm still going to do it and the justification of that is they I can't help it what they can't help it I don't know what that means true for them because if a Christian says it's true for the Christian is true for that question so it can't be true I mean you can smoke anything you say I know I can't help doing this thing so therefore it must be true for me because I said I can't help it yet but an exclusive just a lie another fancy word for a guy isn't it yes do they see as a lie the Christian see is a lie no no all don't say if we had this problem and I said waving the cupcake so you know I can't help it would you say by the way I'm lying you're gonna say that no definitely not you know you're not they say you know I could if I wanted to but I'm gonna lie to you all and on this 80 anyway no he's self-justification it's an excuse they're doing their thing and you know it's like this is a terrible admission for any person to make who names Christ let everyone that name is the name of Christ depart from iniquity so it's an iniquity to have selfish indulgences to practice them why is this weakness so why if it got wife Christian's got this weakness it is because the animal propensities have been strengthened by exercise until they have gained the ascendancy over the higher powers so she's just done a couple of things she's now got this phrase animal propensity z' and she's compared them to what or associated them with what I was just going to a the higher powers so we've gone to this place we've spoken about higher powers and lower powers which is she saying higher powers and now you've got animal propensities but we've already built a different model that talked about lower passions or lower powers in reference to higher powers from the Ventus home 1 to 7 so she seems to be using them in the same way and it will propensity 'z could be substituted for the phrase lower passions and she says the reason why they're in this problem is because they've done what they've strengthened these things by exercise until they have gained the ascendancy over the higher powers men and women lack principle what does that mean what is a principle a rule men and women lack the definition is in a general sense the cause the source of origin principle is a fundamental truth our proposition that serves at the foundation for a system of beings our behavior or for a chain of reasoning so how do I serve our belief opening one's personal behavior so what does it mean men and women lack principle does that mean they lack rules it's it's not they don't like rules because oh these men know all the rules it's not they're not lacking in rules they're lacking in the discipline to follow those rules is that okay see men and women lack rules principle they're not allowing those principles to govern them they are dying spiritually because they have so long pampered their natural appetites that their power of self-government seems gone so what's natural appetite that they're pampering do we do it do we cease animal propensities yeah the annual parentheses have become strong and how did they become strong isn't it in the India indulgence it's the exercise that's how you become strong by doing exercise by repeating it says they've pampered their natural appetites so if you live in a life that you keep on work going down the same route all the time what begins to happen this lower powers these animal propensities the natural appetites begin to do what sorry they rewire your brain and they begin to serve become so strong they have the ascendancy or the command of the higher powers so you know by definition it's wrong for that to happen so the lower passion should always mean submission to the higher by definition that's why they're higher and lower but they've been pampered and then when that happens that power of self-government seems gone what does that mean seems gone has it gone or is it not gone it's not gone it just seems gone so we live in a confused world I don't mean the outside world I mean in our own internal world because if you keep on doing the wrong thing over and over again you become confused about how things operate and that's what this person is experiencing right at the beginning they know it's sin for what they're doing but they've become so confused because they've kept on doing this it seems as though they cannot control themselves that they're out of control but the reality is that they're not and I think what she's saying in the second sentence is this is bad for anybody to do but if you're a Christian it's a terrible admission the lower passions of their nature have taken the reins and that which should be the governing power has become the servant of corrupt passion so she's the reason why this passage is interesting she uses the same idea and uses so many different words for it so she's got animal propensities what else has she got just with the yes with the animal propensities bit lower passions corrupt appetites corrupt passions natural appetite so all of these things are all dealing under the umbrella of the lower passions or the lower powers there's a problem with everybody and it's what self-governance we read something about the children I ran it before in reference to what brother Larry of saying when he said animal passions were spiritualism sorry we're born with them so one thing we need to admit or recognizes that we're born with these with this problem and then she makes his comment the the children today were born with them largely developed so I'm going to conjecture when Cain and Abel were born were they born with lower passions or animal propensities yeah what they largely developed I don't think they were largely developed when appearing cultivate the higher powers developed proper principles then they give a good hairy parent good Harry hereditary tendency to the child so you can impart by practicing principle in yourself those dependencies so it was easier for able to live a holy a holy life than for us so it was easier for able to live a holy life than for us sister Kathy there's wasn't as developed as ours yet pain not being developed in the ultimate thing by killing his brother I mean even though it weren't even developed he did the probably the most the worst sin you can do is by taking someone else's life he and his wasn't even developed so what does that teacher say if he if you bow and they're really developed and I don't think any of us have gone that far you we've got no excuse that they're highly developed they come here they have no advantage so behind your question is I'm guessing that if they don't have it largely developed and we have it hard highly developed or largely developed it's harder for us but right from day one he's gonna kill his brother and asks of poor weak free will people after six thousand years and it's largely developed none of us are doing going that far the animal propensities the lower passions the corrupt passions all of those things we're born with them in the way that a naval born with them but when we're born with them they are strong almost of the degree that we think that they're overpowering which we say so we don't have an exclusive doing them and he doesn't have any of that baggage that we do to the degree that we do let me so day by he'd has the baggage he has these issues but they're not largely developed and he's able still it within his lifetime to kill someone maybe he wasn't born with fully developed lower passion but maybe he developed it over his lifetime because he didn't kill his brother when he was 2 so okay so he said using the word what will you develop could we use the word cultivate he didn't cultivate which means grow and nurture it which she says they've been strengthened by exercise so strengthened by exercise means that you let me do with what you were born with it means you and your own life of strengthening it is that what you're saying what I'm saying is I what I'm thinking at the moment is he is not born with but he as you said he called cultivator Eric and he cultivates those passions but we are born with we don't have to cultivate them okay so how comes you're not killing people like he's okay yeah I think it's more about the reins than it is about the lower passionate so that makes sense then what's a choice what does it mean by the rains I'll read the sentence the lower passions of their nature have taken the reins if this argument is the argument that just sleeps goes round in circles all the time and it's it's it's the fact that because we've got so much baggage we've got so many difficulties that's what the problem is but if you have that model what happens is if you go to the very beginning you don't have that model you don't have all of this weight of 6,000 years of sin and all these problems and yet they still do all of these wrong things so whether or not you were born with all of this huge these passions hugely developed or you strengthen them by a lot of exercise it doesn't seem to make much difference because if you go back to the beginning you're still doing the same thing I see I've got a number of hands up so I just on one point on that thing if you go to this one here he neither has he got them lot he wasn't born with them so they're not born largely developed you agree with that Adam and has he cultivated them he's like lots of exercise I don't know how long he's been going before he sin safe he went a year of two years ten years did he do a lot of exercise saying I'm gonna indulge it with these sinful things I shouldn't eat all of this but I will so by the time he gets to the issue is even the tree and eating of the fruit it's already largely developed so that's what the problem is no no no I'm not asking about created and we agree I just said he wasn't crazy with him you know that he's not only not created largely developed so we know that but has he been cultivating it all of his life from creation to when that event happened however long that was I didn't know if it's one week or one year or ten years it just doesn't exist what doesn't exist in our packet though the lower pressures exist I agree because that's the nature of man but what doesn't exist this D generates evil if he woke up one day and he says I'm gonna eat five bowls of cereal or four bowls of cereal which is just a little bit less than sinful indulgences and he does that and it goes to four four and a half he begins to develop this thing then by the time he had got to be through it's been developed has he gone had he had that has he done that has he gone through that development that strengthening the obvious answer is what maybe it's not so obvious because you're not answering before I'm asking about before have faith has anything been strengthened before that yvaine item asking you now think because if he had strength of it before what would those indulgences Avene they would have been sinful which means they would have been seen so you don't need to worry about the Apple his problem is he eats five bowls of cereal so he'd already sinned long ago so you know that in his life however short he was he never strengthened it he was never born with them strengthened and he never cultivated the strengthening of them because that would have been sin so why does he sinned I'm not asking to answer that he sins even though he doesn't have all those issues sister Cathy then brother Tyler and someone hit like the illustration that was used by taking the reins because if anybody has written ever and they have lost their reins the horse goes wherever whatever it wants to do and until you get a hold of those reins again you you have no control over that animal and it's the same way with our life if we are if we have got the hold of those reins we can control what we're doing but once we let go of that our our our passions are you can go any which way since the caffee when Adam is here if he let go of the reins in the example you've just given did he let go of them here Adam where he goes from here and he eats the fruit so he let go of the rain so just so that we're clear when you say the reins what you mean letting go of the reins we know what the imagery of brains is it's what does control the horse yes so when you let go of that you lose control what is the horse the parable is the horse what is the horse in real life in this context it's the we're reading it now we're reading this passage about those passions all that and then she meet talks about the reins and you get an example he said it was a good example about the reins so you've got the rider you've got the reins and you've got the horse those three things so in the context of this or in the context of Adam doing wrong the reins is the control so we've got that what is the horse isn't that isn't that not the horse brother Tyler what did you hide that I know even if it's while back know it you you brought up singing and I was gonna bring that example but you already brought it up which example same that's Satan Satan was sinless and all haven't vote that will not be about Adam oh you haven't had it before and someone else had to hand out 55:13 rights enchanted a store named paragraph 1 it says the will is the governing power in the nature of money bring in all the other faculties under its weight the will is not the test or the inclination but the deciding power which works in the children of men unto obedience to God or unto disobedience why is the horse right the animal law questions someone some set of life the being the being the lie is that the animal the lower passions of their nature have taken the reins and that which should be the governing power has become the servant of corrupt passion I don't think it's just a Laurin nature I think it's the entire beam the horse so you're saying horse is the world's I disagree I'm saying the rains the will she says the will is the governing power in the nature of money right and that's but to Adventist home 127 paragraph tools she says the Lord the lower passions she are not of itself do anything contrary to the law of God it means the will so the lower person if it is if it has taken the reins and the governing or in the nature of man is the will that's there in the government or is a ring I ask you to force what they say like what I do okay the man this is it the manor when when someone is sitting on a horse and it's the reins then so to speak the horse is in bondage and in the next sentence you see here the soul is held in lowest bondage I would suggest that the horse is to solve and the soul is in that context it's the entire being a man by the side we ready to put it out because they never mind that since the she met her brother Mario this might not be anything it's not it is it's amazing uncultivated so i cultivated and inherited tendencies is that lower pressures cultivated and inherited yes tendencies is that lower packets brother Tiger didn't it have to be the horse is the lower passions the rider is the this the higher and the reins would be the will because we can't bring the whole the whole model is that we can't bring flesh into any of this equation so it can't be the man it can't be me as a person because if you're gonna spend if people mean flesh by that I don't know people mean just I used to have to define our terms but I would say it's the height the person's to hire the riders the higher powers the reins are the will and the lower passions are the the beasts you know I said once in the presentation though he's doing what my biggest problem is is that you know I use plenty of parables from the Bible but I use quite a few of my own ones and the problem with uninspired parables he sometimes they're actually hard to define and so so maybe my whole model to say that there's the man there's a rider a horse and the rain may be difficult because I've followed you into that way of thinking because we started thinking about a horse and it's if some was talking about horse and a rain I'm thinking you have to have a ride that you've got these three things maybe it's not that straightforward to use that analogy and and dovetail it into this perfectly but we do know that the idea of reigns is to control something and these lower passions have taken control of something because that's what those reigns are talking about and what they're taking control of is the higher power brother Mario our deal because you lose control of your being when you're not following the principles that should govern your meal so I lose control of my myself I get angry I give way to my law passion of getting angry and I punch you physically function right so I physically just did something because of a decision that I mean intellectually I agree with relatives the hearts cannot be below of passion because which we just said in my opinion yeah oh can be hard if you're proven to be wrong in a minute might be proven to be wrong this cannot be because they're hot they're lower passion is a part of something just as all she says the will is the governing power in the nature of money so therefore that definition that you gave us up there the tree fold nature of money are two we have the intellectual moral and allure passions all of this comprises the entire beam so therefore if one part has gave me ascendancy it is still gaining the ascendancy over the entire profit isla because with the way you have to picture it is sort of a horse's see me riding the person because I think her logic just proved her wrong and that it would have to be the lower the lower passions because this threefold person this threefold person is is is the entire relationship of the rider and the and the horse or is the it's the whole parable so and I don't know if we're saying though the reins are the the moral we haven't talked about that yet so maybe I can leave that out but you have to the higher powers are in control of the lower but once you let go of those reins if I can say it that way then your lower nature is going to do whatever it wants because you're giving it that that control and it's gonna make you go left or right or Center but it's only a part of the whole beam because the beam is threefold okay.what once the lower powers take control they become the higher powers there in the Senden sea and there in the sentencing tire being the entire horse so it's a it's a poor parable when you start breaking down the relationship of higher and lower I think it's making your point but when I surrender my will to my lower nature my entire being is now being governed by my lower nature and conversion means to be reversed it means to be put my higher nature back in the ascendancy so I see he's he's I think attacking the model more than he is the reality there's an area oh sorry the next time goal I mean oh no no we don't cover it and the risk of muddying the waters if we do have a parable because we have the threefold union at the end of the world which is a woman riding a beast so what are the reigns if it's a three-fold union the rinds be the United States good an analogy be drawn a but antithetical to the one we're drawing about the nature of man at my robe reach for Volare brother Mary a sister who I've looked at the higher Lords in the past but not in the depth we're looking at today is two dogs its whichever one I feed it's gonna be the strongest one and me feeding is the choice that I make every day that's how I've looked at it but not in the depth that we're going in I just think about feeding my lower pattern that's gonna take the ascendancy if I feed the higher passions which is my choice on both in that one's gonna take the ascendancy what about if you never fight one of the dogs if I then I would have been making no choices I just be doing nothing sitting there doing nothing and that's not a reality every day we're making choices no I thought you're making the model that if you feed the bad dog it'll get strong and you know take control over the situation and while that the good dogs getting weak will actually never fed the bad dog it was cool it's still there it's still there it's not gonna die off because we we were understanding that our lower passions are part of our nature so I'm looking at it is and when it says here that strengthened by exercise okay other white youth this mode like you feed one and not you know not the other one that becomes weaker he's a model at Alawite you tease many times if she's using it even hear about this strengthening so the fact that we strengthen something is that what the problem is because if he didn't strengthen it with the problem disappear so it can be weakened but the problem never disappears through there it just makes it harder and the reason we know that is if you go to the model that we said about Adam in this condition then he does something he never strengthened those that animal propensity in these lower passions they weren't he wasn't born with any of those warped and warped in the sense that they've become they're strong and he never cultivated that and he still cuts into a problem so the fact that they're cultivated and the fact that they're inherited does that is that that is that what the problem is the answer is yes or no the answer is no even if you cultivated them even if you were born with them so you come to Christ or you come to a place even if it's not Christ you come to a place when you're 50 and you decide the way you've lived all your life is just going to stop living that way is it hard it's hard because you've got 50 years of that and your parents weren't very good but is it impossible I think that's what I read that she wants us to get to understand the the fact that things are difficult don't doesn't make a difference and what people end up doing is they make excuses because it's hard and the excuse they make is it's so hard that I can't not I can't fight against it so they'll take over and she's attacking that lie and even though she doesn't use the context that we're using you know it's a lie because when Adam is at the very beginning you know that he doesn't have those problems he doesn't have the hereditary problems and he doesn't have a cultivated problem and he still is able to do all the stuff that we're able to do which is sin so we just make it harder when we do it but it's not the cause of the problem yeah agree disagree the soul is held in lowest bondage what is the soul the whole being the whole being is held in lowest bondage to these lower passions these lower powers so it's the lower passions low powers were put in their proper place and controlled and we didn't do all of that thing what would happen to our whole being will be taken out of bondage wouldn't we sensuality has quenched the desire for holiness and withered spiritual prosperity so I think there's a lot in this passage what's the summation of what we've just read here if it's even if it's happened for a long if even if you continues to sin it's not impossible to it may be hard but it's not impossible to change the nature the corrupted nature men and women lack principle what does that mean okay discipline men and women do not want to be under discipline rules or regulations they just don't want to be under that they're dying spiritually why sorry why are they dying why are we dying lying to ourselves ourselves because we've been living like this for so long we begin to think maybe we can't control ourselves and we look around and no one else is doing it right why what's that got to do with Christianity if they have not what should they be doing they're not their name the name of Christ what should they be doing not depart from iniquity but should they not depart for money please whether or not you naming Christ or not your bank today Christians your bank manager and his manager and his manager yeah they're all Christians you know you know all the way up to the top cranky person who runs that bank if they weren't Christians would you bank with them right now I do you only fight with a Christian bank if they were Christians but you would what you expected them you expect them to indulge passions regardless of whether they're going to name Christ or not yes so did they move Christ doesn't doesn't put us at some kind of higher standard than everyone else isn't everyone required to do that will you name Christ or not wouldn't you expect that so if you'll expect it and I'll expect I think all of us would agree with it you'll you know your government your local council when you go to Walmart you don't expect them to rob you whether they're Christians or not and do they have the ability to behave properly so you know we live in the world that of course you know you going to any business transaction with anybody you expect them not to cheat you and do they cheat you but it's rare I mean it's rare if you if you go into business with Amazon don't cheat you you know you book an online ticket PayPal all of these things I mean how much level of trust is there don't cheat you it just doesn't happen so how can they all manage it yeah because they men and women put themselves under principle so that they they don't lack that and all of them can do that in their own human strength why do they do that there could be no some reason they're gonna get caught by the police but they all do it so I think what what what her point is making here is that you know it's about motivation if you're if you claim to be a Christian but that should be motivation enough to stop doing all of this all of this stuff I mean isn't that good enough motivation just to be called Christian because this is a terrible admission for any person to make who names Christ it's it's corner it's kind of like embarrassing they'll be claimed to be Christian and yet we can behave like that it's indulgences are not sinful in and of themselves we agree with that they become sinful when we go to an extreme of some kind whatever that extreme is and when we do that we make an excuse by saying we can't actually overcome these passions and so when it says overcome their passions their passions of what the animal propensities the evil corrupt nature all of that they say the reason we're doing that is because we are out of control and it's a terrible admission to say that we're out of control especially if we call ourselves Christians every who names the name of Christ should actually stop doing all of that we should just stop doing that which you stop practicing evil indulgences I just do it either every name the name of Christ so if we named the name of Christ we can't even blame the devil so I come to you always doing that thing made me do it cuz we blind somebody else for ourselves why is there this weakness is because we've allowed the lower passions the animal propensities to gain the ascendancy over the higher powers we've allowed that to happen how does that happen if you says the idle Prensa seeds have been at it is because the animal princes have been strengthened by exercise until they have gained the ascendancy over the higher powers so who was allowing that in the first place you must be allowing that to happen so to me that's an oxymoron if you allow those things to have to get strong who is the you that's allowing those things to it must be those higher powers are allowing them men and women are not disciplined they're dying spiritually because they have so long pamper their natural appetites these lower passions that self-government seems gone has it gone it hasn't gone but it seems gone lower passions of their nature have taken the reigns they've taken control of the being and that which should be the governing power has become the servant of the corrupt passion the soul is held in lowest bondage sensuality is quenched to desire for holiness and withered spiritual prosperity the last sentence enclosing sensuality has quenched the desire for holiness with sensuality sinful lust not just lust in and of itself yeah it's all of this thing that she's gone through this whole paragraph because he's a conclusion concluding point so the essentiality has to be if not equal to but connected with all the corrupt passion the anima parenthesis all of this behavior has done what when you quench something it's drowned its killed it it's killed the desire for holiness and it's withered or dried up spiritual prosperity pertaining to the census yeah so this kind of lifestyle is destructive but even if you've lived a life like that even if you were born like that it's still not an excuse so everyone could change today if they wanted to we could all change if you wanted to even though we've been living like this for a long time it just makes it a lot harder living that way this is the caffeine closing sentence it says they are dying spiritually because they have so long hampered their natural appetites that their power of self-government seems gone so the government is still there it's just been usurped by the exercise of the lower powers they just have to regain they died spiritually their spiritual prosperity is withered it's dying one thing that hopefully with beginning to be comfortable with now is that the threefold nature of man 1 2 3 was there at the beginning and it's here at the end if you don't get rid of it there was nothing added and there was nothing taken away so as you said even though these things have been strengthened the power of self-government is still there it always has to be there you could never have been taken away let's pray Heavenly Father we thank you for your goodness and mercy as we consider the passage that we've discussed this morning about our lower passions about the excuses that we make for our behavior the words we say the actions that we do the things that we eat help us Lord to come to a place where we stop strengthening them but more than that lord help us to come to a place that we're willing internally and publicly to acknowledge that practicing those things living in that fashion is not only harmful to us not only is destroying us spiritually but is unnecessary but we have within us you created us with higher powers that have the ability if we choose to take control to take reigns of our whole being please help us to experience this we ask to pray in the name of Jesus I mean