(10-30-17) - Doing Right - (4bqZnWQGd9M)

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Publish Date: 10/30/2017
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Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (10-30-17) - Doing Right-4bqZnWQGd9M
YouTube ID: 4bqZnWQGd9M

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you know things must be serious when I hand out notes now there are some people who struggle with my style of teaching but I'd try to do it in a way that helps people to clarify thoughts and ideas that they already have in their mind preconceived ideas and we could do we could do our studies in the totally different way I could give you sheets of a prophecy quote so we could read through them tick the boxes and we could move on and we'll be happy but I personally don't find that an effective method of challenging people and their concepts about how salvation works how the lines work how God operates so I found it quite strange that the Wiccan that I'm not here people seem to voice issues or concerns that they don't seem to agree or understand what I'm teaching and I've been here for a long while now and people don't come and talk to me directly about that so if we're going to have a teacher-student relationship that's honest and forthright and I think release an effective way to talk about concerns and issues when I'm not here so I've got a page here that we could all read together and maybe it'll help to clarify some of the thoughts that I'm trying to bring across but I suspect it probably won't so I don't think brother Bob got a sheet because we've just handed him round before he got here so it's taken from faith and works and only if everybody's ever read the book faith and works because he's issue about works and his relationship to faith has been a big issue in our movement from its inception I was speaking to somebody yesterday and they asked a question wire Adventist called a cult so maybe sister ELISA could tell us why you didn't know it was our heed the way you just expressed that why Adventist called a cult from a Tyler stepfather a person Ellen White that's one of the reasons that people latch on to fairly rapidly and what would be the problem in following a person if the person was teaching the truth and what is the major contradiction that sticks in everybody's throats about Ellen White the title of the book will give you a clue sorry sister that she doesn't teach faith by works she teaches salvation by works isn't she isn't that the whole issue faith you said face by works yeah salvation by faith by work so yes this controversy has gone on since the inception of Adventism the evangelical Christianity think that we're a cult because we haven't got our relationship between works and faith our part and Christ's part straightened out and we've been going around certain random circles for a long time trying to address this issue so in the 21st century we still haven't sorted this issue out so I might not have everything correct but he's kind of like my little attempt to at least make us think about how faith and works operate and have all put together so let's just read this then how many paragraphs we've got it's not that many I'll just swing it straight if you're okay with that many young men are sent forth to labor who do not understand the plan of salvation and what true conversion is in fact they need to be converted we need to be enlightened on this point and the ministers need to be educated to dwell more particularly upon the subjects which explain true conversion all who are baptized are to give evidence that they have been converted there is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly repeated more frequently or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man merit in anything by his own good works salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone when this question is investigated we are pained to the heart to see how trivial other remarks of those who ought to understand the mystery of godliness they speak so unguardedly of the true ideas of our brethren who profess to believe the truth and teach the truth they come far short of the real facts as they have been laid out as they have been laid open before them the enemy has so entangled their minds in the mist and fog of earthliness and it seems so ingrained into their understanding that it has become a part of their faith and character it is only a new conversion that can change them and cause them to give up these false ideas for this is just what they are shown to me to be false ideas they cling to them as a drowning man clings to a life preserver to keep them from sinking and making shipwreck of faith Christ has given me words to speak you must be born again else you will never enter the kingdom of heaven therefore all who have the right understanding of the s'matter should put away their controversial spirit and seek the Lord with all their hearts then they will find Christ and give distinct character to their religious experience they should keep this matter the simplicity of true godliness distinctly before the people in every discourse this will come home to the heart of every hungry thirsty soul who is longing to come into the assurance of hope and faith and perfect trust in God through our Lord Jesus Christ let the subject be made distinct and plain that it is not possible to affect anything in our standing before God or in the gift of God to us through the creature through creature merit should faith and works purchase the gift of salvation for anyone then the creature is under obligation so the Creator is under obligation to the creature here is an opportunity for falsehood to be accepted as truth If any man can merit salvation by anything he may do then he is in the same position as the Catholic to do penance for his sins salvation then is partially of death that may be earned as wages if any man cannot buy any of his good works merit salvation then it must be wholly of grace received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus it is wholly a free gift justification by faith is placed beyond controversy and all this controversy is ended as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never purchase procure eternal life for him the light given me of God places this important subject above any question in my mind justification is wholly of grace and not procured by any works that fallen man can do the matter has been presented before me in clear lines that if the rich man has money and possession and he makes an offering of the same to the Lord false ideas come in to spoil the offering by the thought he has merited the favor of God that the Lord is under obligation to him to regard him with special favour because of his gift there has been too little educating in clear lines upon this point the Lord has lent men his own Goods in trust means which he requires be handed back to him when his Providence signifies and the up dip and up and the up building of his calls demands it the Lord gave the intellect he gave the health and the ability to gather earthly gain he created the things of Earth he manifests his divine power to develop all its riches they are his fruits from his own husbandry he gave the son the cloud the showers of rain to cause vegetation to flourish as God employed as God's employed servants you gathered in his harvest to use what your wants required in an economic economical way and hold the balance for the call of God you can say we David for all things come of thee and of thine own have we given thee so the satisfaction of creature merit cannot be in returning to the Lord his own for it was always his own property to be used as he in his Providence should direct so if I were to ask you brother Jonathan after reading the page in a bit is the process and mechanism Oh starvation any clearer to you anyone else after reading the whole page just taking it straight out of faith and works then cut and paste took a section out see the subtitle is through faith alone is the process and mechanism of salvation any clearer yeah so she said it is what's clearer to you after reading this that you didn't know before one of them is it's towards the end the grace part that we're not saved by works but its grace so I'll read that says holy of grace the light giving me of God placing his important subject above any question in my mind justification is holy of grace and not procured by any works that fallen man can do so you didn't know that before I was thinking of the scripture by faith saved through faith saved by grace through faith it doesn't matter that spoiler so I did I did already my self because I think it just stands the same okay change so if I were to ask you what is Grace what he's faith and what he's justification you'd be able to give us good clear definitions of that having studied all of this from this yes tell us what grace is it's a gift of God whose justification is holy of grace but what is justification person justification is the first danger and it's also we come to Christ as we are sinners as you are that's the first step anyone else need to pick one you understand is that we are not safe fireworks you can do as much as possible we can overcome sin by choice but it's not gonna be enough we need the grace of God can you explain why that is why yeah likewise if you did if you kept the law why is that not good enough what more does God expect of you don't really have an answer except for if we how come you don't have an answer to that question which is a fundamental question that if you keep the law why is that not good enough just asking sister to Mina sorry what does that mean what is the merit of Christ actually mean to you well then I should have been killed you took on me what I should have suffered and I kick I can keep the law from now on but my past sins are not dealt with so I always need Christ I can do everything perfectly but it's not going to be good enough because we're about questions it's nothing sorry sister cake cake you said something I interrupted you know anyone else what's the question reading the passage does it make our understanding of salvation clearer we learn anything from it there's a written question faith in Jesus Christ alone so it's Christ it's nothing we can do in and of ourselves I mean we couldn't we need to cooperate with him but II do think it's through Christ that we can have salvation faith in Christ are there not directly to what you're asking but I think the first paragraph is is interesting that it's saying that the teachers in this message evidently don't understand this subject their unconverted that this subject should be part of the prophetic subject but for me when you're as I've understood and I haven't been in all your classes when you're talking about choice it seems to me that it's putting the context of the work of Christ and justifying through His grace human beings that gives you a point of reference to discuss choice and how our will is strengthened without the need of constantly referring back to the justification that takes place at the foot of the cross I mean it's it's a it's put in place clearly that you're saved strictly through the merits of Christ and the work that he accomplished for us and therefore once you have that in in place you can begin to discuss on how your will participates in salvation but I don't know where you're going beaches to a twist the scripture thank you I don't know why and I would not everybody's here in our class why this that's right i I did I did it yeah I don't know why this is concern that I myself maybe other people actually think that we're not saved only on the whole Holi by the merits of Jesus you know I always thought that that was a given it obviously doesn't seem to be because once a person understands that then I would think we could have an honest and frank discussion of why things not work in people's lives as opposed to coming back and saying does he actually believe you're saved by works because I don't know what has led people to think that or does anybody actually think that that's what I'm teaching maybe they've changed in the past 24 hours but some people have expressed that we know they have to blend in some way and and I think that's what I'm trying to tease out of inspiration of our own thinking is how do we address this issue this accusation about cult ISM that adventism generally have that we have in this movement and how do we connect the relationship between faith and works it's that very issue that you've just brought up and I guess what I find worrying is there in trying to do that people come back to that accusation that just to even address the subject labels you as someone who believes that you're saved by works and not faith would rather buy just God and no works so when they hear somebody maybe is making you think of the box and they they want to label it like that maybe I like the second paragraph the last sentence they cling to them their false ideas of salvation as a drowning man clings to a life preserver to keep them from sinking and making shipwreck of their faith and I think the way you just expressed that seems to me but that's what she's saying we have these wrong ideas and we're not willing to consider anything else besides our wrong ideas you know we could have a show-and-tell session you know and discuss frankly why we why wheels how many of us still doing sin after decades of Adventism having read all of these spirit of prophecy Quaid's memorize large potions of inspiration and it stills not and it still isn't working there must be something wrong I think and to me you know that the whole book Phaeton works is a really good book to read and it's a compilation but it's this thought here even when we know what we've got isn't working we want to still cling to that because we still find some kind of comfort and peace even though it's not working or it's wrong to a one verse in the Bible and I'm going to talk about a couple scenarios that the Lord points out to us in the Gospels but if you go to first John chapter 3 in verse seven first John chapter 3 verse 7 I'm gonna back up the reverse 6 whosoever abideth in him then it's not whosoever sinneth has to not seeing him neither known him little children let no man deceive you he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as he is righteous and bring that verse up and then I look at the scenario that Jesus points out in the Gospels that there are those who were going to come to him in the end and say Lord Lord and those are the ones who are going to be lost and they're gonna say well Lord didn't we do and they're holding a list in my mind they're holding a list of their good works they're holding a listing Lord I did all these things for you and Jesus got away from you worker of iniquity I never knew you and yet the ones who do enter the kingdom are those that Jesus says oh come and and to enter into my kingdom because when I was sick you did this and when you know when I was poor you gave me you've helped me here and you death and though you know the difference is who's holding the list if we're holding the list of our works thinking that it's meriting us anything we're lost but if we realize that all the works that can be manifested in the life of a true Christian are the works of the Lord and they're not our works or his works living through us then we recognize that it's it's him and we're not being to see so you know what's his works living in us and he's the one that's holding the list he's saying you're coming into the kingdom of heaven because you know you did all these things and they they turn on saying when do we do all this because you're not taking credit for it yourself and I see that as there's both sides of this face we're issue you make first John three verse first first John chapter three verse six and seven okay and if we were to go on to verse nine yes which is the one that most people have an issue with whosoever is born of God does not commit sin for his seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God and either we're Christians or we're not Christians and if were Christians I would like an explanation of why verse nine isn't reliving reality in your life because it's a plane verse and if you don't have a sensible answer since the Cathy had your hand oh absolutely absolutely had your hand up sister where'd you get that from okay yeah I think that's what lb Jeff said oh yeah perhaps a couple of weeks ago I came up with a suggestion and I thought it's a good suggestion but I don't think people really liked it I guess all three scenarios you've got three options and the three options I gave was a current experience that we're all having or even saying all many of us it's you do the wrong thing for the wrong reason does that make sense yeah you shout because you feel angry or you had a bad day did I say why not live this way do right for the wrong reason and then what God's will is is that we do right for the right reason they kind of suggested it this way while we're here at school maybe like something like a holding pattern and then it'd have planes over an airport and it can't land why not just go for this one here number two before you actually understand how the plan of salvation works as we're plowing through it why can't we just live as number two do the right thing for the wrong reason because you've got your skill you're going to get in trouble or you'll get some award or some treat all wrong motivations why can't we live that way what's the problem with living that way sorry sister Kay to act as if you are happy or at peace even though you're unhappy and happening that eventually it'll straighten itself out but that's basically doing the right thing I'm not trying to suggest that this is salvation but I'm asking why can't we even live like this while we not prepared to actually be nice to one another to behave properly to do everything they were required to do all for the wrong reason I didn't understand I mean I've asked this question many many times to people because we all seem to live at number one this this place we're all doing wrong the wrong reason and we're all trying to strive to do right for the right reason and say you know in the meantime why can't we live like number two and I think if we don't get to a place we can actually understand and accept and believe that we can live it level two you never actually even get to understand how salvation works and I'm not trying to say this is some kind of evolutionary process that's not what I'm trying to teach and I'm definitely not saying number two is salvation but I'm asking people who who claim to be who claim to be at number three in their enough in our profession why we're not even that living at number two and my primary argument is that most of the world lives at number two it's the world who does that who don't have all of these things all these gifts and grace and all these ideas the spirit of prophecy don't have any tools they can live at number two and we seem to be unable to manage even that and I don't understand why why we're not willing to confront ourselves individually and say they can do it I could do it instead of sitting and waiting and number one doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons over and over again waiting for God to saw out and get us to number three sisters your mother always doing the right right right thing for the right reason it's I mean if you do wrong for the wrong reason one day and they do right for the right reason the next day does that take you back to square one what I'm saying is this is it let's not worry about that let's not worry about that let's think about this why are we doing wrong and my understanding is if you can do right once and then you can do it a second time it's an established principle that you can do it every time so when you say one day in another day when Christ was traveling with his parents to Jerusalem oh yeah they lost sight of him and then it took three days for them to to find him that's how most of us live we lose sight of the Savior for a day and it takes us three days to okay recover him again so that does happen to most of us but you're saying it shouldn't be happening I'm not the only person saying it shouldn't be happening yeah I would I would offer you that the whole of the New Testament says he shouldn't be happening but I mean you're teaching I'm teaching that we shouldn't be doing the first one it should be we should be doing the second one at least the second one but if not we should be doing the third one we should all be at number three yeah and my question is why are we not doing right for the right reason why are we not even there because we're all reading the same inspired word we're all praying the same prayers we all have the same supposed belief system and we're not at number three my response to that and you picked it up if you read it I didn't highlight it bring to power those paragraphs it talks about doing things she doesn't quite say line up on line but she almost does it in the last paragraph there has been too little educating in clear lines upon this point and she says it in the paragraph four I I don't often like taking the phrase where she talks about doing things all along along a line and saying look this is the proof text for line upon line methodology but I kind of did it for this one I don't think many of us will have a clear understanding or a willing to even examine why we do what we do and so what I think the approach to the problem is to understand why we're not here and why most of us are at this first step is to try and understand some of these statements that Ellen White makes to see why these things are working and why they're not working and I'm saying in the meantime this seems to me enough evidence clear evidence that if the world can do it we can do it and so when I say and I don't know why people either misunderstanding or resting my words I think I don't know what the numbers are a third of the world and Muslims plus or minus a little bit and that's right and virtually all of those people keep law and I don't believe that they're under grace and this I don't know if any of you think that they're actually under grace so the law that they keep is you shall not eat unclean food my question is in whose strength are they doing that I understand it to be their own so to me there's a there's a a singular testimony that you can eat proper food in your own strength Oh give another example there are more vegans and Adventists in this world far more and none of them eat any animal products and whatever power that they do that in it's certainly not God's power so they're not under grace and they can manage so my question is how comes we us maybe even in this room Adventists can't even be vegans you know why we struggle and struggling and wallowing in the mire not being able to do things that any worldly person can do we can go on after you know example are for example we could all come up with their own examples the world can manage to keep law they can do what's right and my premise is why can't we if they can do it why can't we do it you can go up example after example whether it's dieting exercise just straight Commandments there are millions literally millions of couples who never ever commit adultery most people when they first get married would never even ever consider gate committing adultery a man when he's courting doesn't look upon another woman because his fiancee feels horizon and they do it they do it all for the wrong reason and we believe in a testimony of two so to suggest that when I say we're required not only are we able to but we're required to do what's right and it doesn't matter what reason you do it for to suggest that that is salvation by works or being safe some other way I don't understand why people would misunderstand that sister teri oh sorry tests you have to speak glad because they won't hear you so in a way it's like you're carrying around a crutch and after a while you develop early because even though you don't have an injury because you think that you can't do it then it has to be something outside of you you can't walk straight and the world doesn't have that excuse they have to step up and do the right thing you know if we're all supposed to be made of Commission Ares aren't we and if you started getting arthritis and someone told you to fix your die up and you'll get better would you be doing the right thing yeah so good to get better would you be doing it for the wrong reason if you've got arthritis and you need to get healed up are you now getting into health reform for the wrong reason would you think that that's the wrong reason some people say yes and some people say no you don't think that's the wrong reason rather Jonathan it's a good reason what's the good reason okay so the person that you're helping is a boxer so now you have cured ease arthritis and his fingers so he can go back to this profession properly of beating people up when I mean a boxer he's a bodyguard or a bouncer at a nightclub so now he can continue the whole process of allowing drinking and alcohol and beating people up because she healed him so you've done the right thing for the right reason consider every person what they do afterwards I mean that's their problem you don't have a responsibility other question would you wouldn't you help me I I could show you spirit proxy quotes that say no no space to help it he's going to use that health for a wrong reason you know you shouldn't be helping him there's plenty people you need help you should be selective of who you help well if you recognize that with scriptures tell us about our body being simple the Holy Spirit and understanding how we're supposed to you know I think that's more along the lines of right and if people aren't going to recognize does what Christ does the price you paid for us and that endurable people are willing to recognize that first then all the other good health measures aren't going to help you at all it's not it's good what is it a value in the end if you don't if you don't have Christ if you don't understand if you don't understand what Christ has done for you and all all the good health is just gonna get you to live a few years longer and you're still gonna end up in the wrong resurrection I think that's the fair synopsis of that our health message that primarily if we are driven to get healthy or live healthy to free ourselves from pain you're doing the right thing but not for the right reason the reason why we're supposed to have good clean bodies is so that we can be the temple or the house for the holy spirit to dwell upon a dwelling that would be the right thing for the right reason because we use health as an engine in which don't we yeah you have to clean up some problems and you know almost as a bribe almost as a bribe we say I've got this you know his ability to make you feel better and if you felt better and you could then begin to trust me that hey if I can help you on this level maybe I can help you on another level isn't that what the entry wedge of the health message is so the not only that people can clear up their minds and think differently the fact that you come to a place where you're offering someone something to get out of a hole that they're in and you can help them on that issue you can help them on the more serious or more important issue of spirituality and salvation so I think many of us when we approach the whole issuers of health reform as an advantage we approach it the wrong way we're all into health because we're worried that we look fat there was got spots on our face we care about what people think we're going about die in a few years earlier all of these things are all driven by fear or what people think about us and I would suggest they're all driven by self and I don't think that's what God's aim ultimate aim is in having this healthy you know above all things I wish that you would prosper not so that you could serve yourself or work harder sorry yeah so we all understand about this thing doing right for the wrong reasons so I want to make it clear if it's not clear that doing right for the wrong reasons is not the standard it's not the definition of salvation but I'm contending two things first of all that we're able to do that and I think there's an abundance amount of evidence that it's possible just go to the world they prove that it's possible to do right for the wrong reason and the second thing that I'm contending is until you get to that stage hopefully I won't get misunderstood or nice until you do that God won't kick in God won't do his part so if you want to think about faith and works the works bit the bit that you're required to do is this to do what's right ignore what that bit says but you're required to do what's right there's an expectation on God's part that you will do what's right and if you don't you store and I think it's sister tested many of us are waiting for him to do something so that we can do right we're not willing to actually address the issue in an honest and sensible fashion like the rest of the world does that they just say you know let's just do right because it is right we're waiting for God to do that and I don't think it's a good model I think it's a broken model brother Jonathan brother Bob stalled we're stuck we can't move forward and we can't move forward because waiting for God to do something to move us forward and we get to a stage where all of us are living like this we end up thinking that this is Christianity and the reason why I think this is so important why this is such an important issue besides you know using proof texts to show that it's important an older sister Tess Terry has already done one of her presentations but I think she's going to develop a model to show you that this movement has a holistic message it's not just driven by tidings out of the east and north of other issues that we need to consider but I said this a few times even though it's not expressed this way when we have our reformed line if this was 8990 11:00 and midnight however you want to conceptualize it i think the attack upon our on upon our movement our line balled down to one singular issue and if you can see that when the attacks happen you should be able to say and identify say that's where it is what do we think the attack is before I tell you what I think it is what wait what I don't mind sorry okay so you said we're but what is the attack putting things into the future and it's a singular thing that's been attacked over and over again on that issue and it's always the second angel it's a second angel that's under attack it was under attack in the middle right history and it's under attack in our own history what I mean by that is the following we know I thinks it's the shamila when she first said this when spoke about I asked what was justification she said it was the first angel so we know that the second angel is dealing with the issue of righteousness but not only is it dealing with the issue of righteousness it's also dealing with the issue of Babylon and I think there's a misunderstanding of when we talk about Babylon is fallen what that actually means and people rest your words and twist them so if you want to see what anybody who has a variant view of our reform line is attacking it's always attacking the second angel and why is that so why would they be pushing things into the future you know even though they would not agree with it if you got into a debate or an argument that the Omega movement now have moved the second angel from here to here they can cloak it and they can cover it and they can hide it but that's exactly what they're doing so there are other people who deal with Psalms 23 and they won't go as far as the Omega they do a kind of like a halfway house and they'll move the second to hear Bram saying it's the same issue over and over again that we could discuss and argue this issue on an intellectual basis and we could read quotes and we could go to like sketches 4:11 and show that it's not the case and we could construct lines and we could argue about how the lines are put together where their foundations are laid where the angels come in and where they don't come in and I'm not saying we shouldn't that's all about tidings as the eastern north we should argue that on an intellectual basis of why that is and how it's wrong but my question is why are they doing that why they want why do they want to move it is it because they don't understand plain English when the buildings of New York taken down verses one two three fulfilled don't they understand what that means that they're going to come up with sophisticated and clever arguments that they haven't moved to - they're gonna know they're going to earn their way out of that argument but if you want to really address the issue that's what they're doing so my question is not that they're doing that or they're not doing that my question is why are they doing that what's the reason for it I think the reason they're doing that is because of the issue that we're addressing now how are you saved are you saved by faith do you're saved by works what's the mechanism what's the process because many of these people have been in the faith long time some short time but doesn't matter how long you you've been in the faith you're all baptized and their claim to fame is that all of us are doing what we're all sinning there is none righteous no not one so what they want to do is get that problem and throw it into the future and that's their vain attempt of doing it and I'm saying if you want to argue against them you've got two ways of doing it and you should be using both the ceiling is one it's an intellectual and a spiritual settling into the truth so they come to a place that you can't be moved and we may or may not be some of us aren't even experts on it we may be experts that we can handle that intellectually but every time you do that they're gonna always come back and outflank you and say well that's all good and well but answer one problem why are you doing sin now I'm not suggesting you're going to head-to-head with them saying I'm not doing sin but if you start presenting messages even on the intellectual basis that say the light teach you that you don't do sin you're going to get accused with a whole manner of foolishness like holy flesh and salvation by works and I get accused of all of those things repeatedly based upon what you put on the board when the second angel arrives you said that's where righteousness is manifest that's the second step but this is the fall of Babylon when you put that at 911 and you use those two characteristics it's defining their argument Babylon being confusion their work is to confuse what righteousness is I've said a number of times in a really provocative manner but I think it's true what they're preaching is what we believe people use the phrase they're preaching to the choir we've already bought into this concept of their theology but we're not willing to confront ourselves about this issue because if this is just an intellectual argument and we say just juggling the numbers around and moving things we we arguing at that level but that's not what their problem is even though they don't express it this way their problem is pointing at you and saying you claim to have a line but you don't even live your line and they want to prove to it prove to you that you don't live your line and if you get into an argument that's what that that's what the argument always will be so they come up with an alternative line for you that fits into your experience I don't know why he said Satan our own brethren are doing that and what's our argument against them brother Tyler oh yeah I know you hate before you said there's two ways to to go about addressing it were you saying it was the intellectual and spiritual that was that your answer to that or did you not get to that point yet there's two ways of addressing this whole problem yeah you said there's two ways you should be a attacking it or defending it and use it and then you went into the intellectual and spiritual was that the two ways yes living in teaching it yes so that's right the ceiling no I mean I'm using it as a play on words I'm not saying the ceiling I'm saying our message it's the truth we have to understand the truth intellectually and spiritually yes I know it's the scene but that wasn't the point I was making I was just making these two concepts we have to have the intellectual and the spiritual and we argue about the intellectual but there their response is what about this experience the spiritual sister Cathy focus on that and we just focus on you know preaching the truth and living life godly I'm saying they're supposed to go in they're supposed to go hand in hand yes we're supposed to have an experience when you say that that you mean what they're saying yes their argument what I was what I was not trying to say is that we should argue with them or fight against them but the point I wanted to make was that the whole issue about our reformed line I think I could correctly say period is all about the second angel so whether you're dealing with the church or Psalms 23 or the Omega or anybody or the issue of how you put sin out of your life it's a recurring theme it's just one subject it's all about the second angel so at that level I don't think you would ever sort of move on because that's what the issue is the issue is an intellectual understanding of what this role of the second angel is doing its purpose how the reformed lines work and to have a corresponding experience as we understand the intellectual brother Tyler because what we're finding you just said a minute ago is that they're preaching what we believe even though we're saying something else so we're kind of caught in this position where we've slept so to speak and we've allowed this heresy to go but in ignorance of ourselves because we didn't know we didn't we didn't we don't know the truth and so the reason this is here is because we don't know the right thing and so we have to get we have to figure out what righteousness is what the second angels messages and all those things and I think that's why it's here we learned at the candy team that we're no longer in the second angels we are but it's empowered now as of 2014 so what does that mean should how is it empowered because we haven't been apparently living it so I mean which is the second angel which is righteousness so how is it being a pallid it's anybody have a response to that what does it mean we're in the empowerment of the second angel righteousness that is floating around objet I'm not sure what she's getting at but of course what does it mean to be empowered in the millerite history when the second angel was empowered at the midnight cry it's we use the history where she speaks about a living testimony so I would argue that the environment of the second angel is when God's people are not only intellectually settled into the lines but they have a corresponding spiritual experience it's at that point that the second angel is in power when that be 2014 because if they're a danger right then has been taught that the third angel right during the time of that empowerment right you went back before earlier you were talking about doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason from the right thing for the wrong reason during the right thing for the right reason and you weren't saying you were saying that that that we have to step out there's a part that we have to do first before the Lord kicks in you know I don't know if that's how you worded it but I know that that we we have to put forth the effort to do what's right at the same time knowing that that without without the divine power that God enables you to put with that that that effort that is gonna fail nothing but if you you can do the right so it's not it's a stepping stone but it really isn't because it's not a place you're supposed to it's a stepping stone but it's only a step but it's a step because you'reyou're continually moving in a direction it's not it's not a step where you go there and you just you don't camp there you know what my point isn't isn't that that you know it's a it's a camping site or or it's a stepping stone or it's some kind of evolution of process my point on that issue is why wouldn't you want to live that way who actually enjoys being miserable you know if we'll went to we weren't for anyway we went to the doctors tomorrow and we had a diagnosis of cancer and they said you've got six months to live how would you live your life you know I'm sure you've heard testimonial you've watched little documentaries or whatever you know it's a consistent theme that when someone is confronted with death and they they know they've really got a short time to live they put their house in order and one of the things that they do is that they want to live at peace with people they want to make peace they want to enjoy their few remaining fragments of life happy and then we've only got three score in ten years here and why don't we want to live like that just being happy around one another joy in people's company and making life as pleasurable as it could be and it can be pretty pleasurable here but we don't want to live that way and I'm saying when I steal with Adventists they don't say they don't actually want to live that way they say they can't and I'm saying it's crazy cancer patients managed to do it sister and City showed your hand up Oh sister day about hating being sick I actually hate to be sick and if I could only feel that way about sin hating sin because I think most of us probably don't think simply that we think we you know that sin is just it becomes a part of us let me let me change that word scene to upsetting people say the same thing you said now you want to get to a place where you hate to no but isn't that your your you're breaking guys come on yeah no you're not loving no I agree what I'm saying is we just call it that we just call it sitting and making some kind of other thing but what does sin mean it means why can't you get to a place where you don't want to upset people why can't you just do that but that's what you just said I've just change the word sin to upset why won't why won't you live that way let me ask you that question why won't you lived at a place where you know you're upsetting someone and why don't you say I just won't do it you whatever phrase you want to use no bury it or suck it up or man up or whatever however you want to phrase that why can't you just live that way why won't you do that no mas can you personally it's like why won't you just do that why wouldn't you bill you know it's right you know it's right to do that you say you wanted it why won't you just say I'm not going to upset anybody anymore whatever they do to me I'm not going to upset them back is it that you can't or you don't want to I think it's yeah it's because self is still unless I'm asking you why don't you want to or you can't help it you know if I didn't believe I can't cannot do it or I don't want to do it it's just so my question is why don't you do it then didn't have to answer it's personal brother Tyler I don't think anyone would say they they want to upset anyone especially anyone would want to say that so what it ends up happening is you're forced to say because those are really the only two options either you you don't want to or you can't and I think we would all err on the side of them I can't do it I got too upset in the moment or something and lashed out or whatever and it ends up becoming up I don't have the ability to do it because of the environment and that's what I'm trying to unpick and I'm trying to get Oh 25 of you here and whoever's watching the video to look in the mirror and just be honest like an alcoholic would and say my name is John and I'm just sitting there and I do sin and I want to do it you've gotta come to a place you say I want to hurt people I like it or I don't like it because he doesn't matter whether you like it or not I just want to do it they hurt me I hurt them back you know I want to I want this to be you know public we could do all personally but this we get to a place where we could say no I'll start my name's Belinda and I like hurting people when they hurt me I want to do it even if I don't like it afterwards the thrill and the threat and the rush of doing in the moment is nice so I want to do it that's why I do it and to me that is it's blatantly obvious it's the elephant in the room and people won't admit to it and I don't understand why sister Elissa then sister Kathy sorry but there's a sense of pointing something out so much easier to point at the flocks of other people and say well they're doing all of these things instead of looking at the self and saying why am i doing these things but it can be when I say misplaced righteousness because some of the things that I've observed in myself as well as others justifying well I've got to point that out to that person so that it's my god-given duty to point those things out to others so that they can stop doing that that's what worries me when you say quite yet yes yes no I'm just saying because that's what we always look like quite yet and if with as soon as someone says to me quite yet I'm saying you must be at a because you're part of the Omega because you're shifting things and moving them forward yeah I can't speak for anyone but myself I guess I couldn't sister Kathy don't you think that we as individuals put ourselves in a in places where we can't control our so we don't have that power that allows us to to make those changes in us so I mean let's say for instance somebody that is it's a raging person he has no self-control because he's never he's never allowed himself to grasp on to him the power that would allow him to get victory over that don't you think that within this message we just haven't gotten the right connection with God so therefore we continue to do what we do my response to that is you get a gangster who's you know who's in charge of a mob when he's in his private room he'll tell this person you know one of his men he said you know go and just kill him and someone argues with him he'll glare at him and everybody will back away because they know what power he's got you get that same person and when the police catch him in you put him in a courtroom he'll be sitting there smiling being benign saying I'm just a really nice man or in front of the press he's has the ability to change his persona according to the environment that he finds himself in if you've got the right motivation he'll change my argument is even those people who are raging if you just get the right environment for them they'll toe the line everybody toes the line if you just set the dynamics up correctly and to me that proves that everybody has it within them to behave properly and you know we're in the courtroom now and no one's gonna misbehave because you're worried what they'll say on the camera or what I will think or someone else will think when we go home and we're all in our room we'll all be doing our stuff because no one's looking Dido you had your hand up yeah yeah through the years in this message we've drawn a parallel to the midst of the primary misconception of the Jews is that they thought Christ was coming to set up a literal earthly Kingdom and that this is typifying the primary misconception in Adventism at the end of the world and has to do with the Holy Spirit so I know that you know this I heard you teach this before but I'm kind of seeing this in that scenario those of us that are unwilling to behave ourselves based upon the premise that how Alyssa said it quite yet that sometime in the future the latter rain is going to come and make us okay that's kind of that it's that same trap is it we know we should be latter rain people but we're not willing to prepare the vessel right now for the Lateran we're waiting for some magical thing in the future so the second argument that these people have I'm gonna start shifting my symbology because I've used taste for so long he thought use the new one now I'm gonna start calling them Samaritans so the argument that the Samaritans have is because you behave so badly you don't have any right to point our faults or our mistakes and I don't mean like oh you just had a can of coke or whatever even just theological problems you can't go attacking people because you're just as bad and with many of us have bought into this argument and I think again it's a misunderstanding of our reformed line and I've I'm pretty sure I've addressed this a number of times already they're in this reform line there are two things happening because this reform line here begins at 9:00 11:00 to midnight and the first angel has already done its work so there are two angels now one of them is the second and the other is the third and what is the role or the point of the second what is a second trying to teach us just said it a moment it goes right righteousness so I'm going to call that the experience why don't you say by faith why do you add that bit in so if you know that why do you have to add that phrasing if I just put writers why do you have to say by faith is it just because you're worried that some of us might make a mistake or we're not sure you have to I'll just be facetious no I just mean that you don't have to respond because I'm saying what I'm saying when I was a child they'll behave like a child when I became a man I put away childish things so if I put righteousness I must I'm saying it must be righteous by faith because there's no other righteousness there is there okay so it's the work of the second experience what is this wrong with the third what's the third doing sorry judgment what's the primary theme of the third earth with its come up in many many not just here but I've seen many presentations about it and sometimes people I want to pick a specific word and people don't seem to get it it's not all it's nothing like that it's not complicated it's an experience and the 30s of work it's the work of whatever you want to add into that you know judgment and all that kind of stuff selection but the role of work and when you start playing with these numbers and start moving them around what's the purpose of that so first of all they're going to attack your experience and what's the other problem attack what you're supposed to be doing that's the whole purpose of messing around with the reformed line so that at the time that you're supposed to be doing the work a work of pointing out and saying brother Jonathan you need to get your life in order and stop playing around and get serious and what's brother Jonathan gonna do it's going to turn around and say are you living with that sin perm endure and I'm saying I don't care what you say because you know what what angel am I I'm the third angel and the third angel walks around in clothes of linen they're unassailable you can't touch them you can't touch the third angel because the third angel doesn't have any problems because the third angel doesn't have to have an experience he's here just to do a work and if we can't conceptualize how these parables work that were required to have an experience at the same time that we require to do a work we're always going to get cornered and we're going to be told to shut up until you get your life in order and you cannot get to the place but you will do if you listen to people that you say when I get my experience sorted out then I begin to do the work of the third angel the third angel isn't perfect or imperfect the third angel isn't part of the problem he's not a human being in the sense that needs redeeming or sorting out or helping he's someone that's outside he's not in Jerusalem remember he's not in the field remember he's just out of the thing observing saying there's a work to do so let's sort out the work but at the same time this human being is also going through an experience a second angel is in the field he's in Jerusalem sighing and crying growing as the rain pours upon him and if we don't understand there's this dual role happening at the same time you get and you if you understand that now you know why you put righteousness here and when does the investigative judgment happen couldn't be maker can you see why it has to happen here because we have one two and midnight to midnight cry is the third step because you can only do a work here once your righteous you can see how their theology has made them draw a line that fits in with their theology this is what I understand when it says an intellectual in experiential it settling into the truth you have to have both because if you don't have both things come out of sync and God wants us to not live that way so they had they have a holistic model and our model isn't correct and what I mean by that is intellectually we might have it all right but we need to get our lives in sync with our message that's what the purpose of these studies are as far as my understanding is if you don't have them no we could have the experience that would be fine but if we're not doing the work the argument is you can't do a work until you're righteous because what we're trying to say it's the same person and I'm saying the third angel is not the second angel they're different people they're two different people and we have to be able to this is just a to mediate a mental juggling exercise you have to get to the place where you say I have to have an experience that's me the second but also I have to do a work of judgment of analyzing of pointing the finger calling people by their right name and that's the work of the third and if you're going to get caught up in the fact that you don't have the legitimacy to do that because your own life is defective we don't have a reformed line we have to get to a place where I'd say badly you have to do right even if it's all wrong you have to be able to stand up and say this person is wrong and it doesn't matter about your own morality now it'd be nice if your morality was all tidied up and sorted out but whether it is already risen which of us are required to do a work because the third angel is already in this history before you get to midnight and if you buy into this idea that it's not that you're not allowed to do things say things until you get your life in order you've bought into Satan's lie and this reform line was laid out with excruciating pain on behalf on a part of God and it's labored tirelessly over the last tune-up over two and a half decades to make sure all of this is put in the right order so that we don't make these mistakes and we're here hard up to midnight and we still fall into the same trap brother Jonathan you and I have spoken about this over and over again and you will you keep on bringing morality into it you're going to get tripped up over and over again because you're going to develop a model that you can't do a work until you get if I put your morality here you go out do a work until you get your morality sorted out when you when you conflate them it causes problems all right I'm saying in this history here you can develop an argument to say the third is here I'm not trying to say I'm just trying to make the point that you need to see that we have two things running concurrently and every single attack that comes upon us is to undo that so I've run out of time but I just want to say this this whole issue about if you want to put morality or being good the ability to do to do to be good actually is all laid out prophetically even though we may not have realized it I understand or it's at least in my mind it's becoming clearer that the fact they were even addressing this issue and we haven't addressed it before it's following a prophetic sequence it's it's here for a reason today that it wasn't here in the past and so maybe we'll pick it up tomorrow this is the clue that I'm seeing I won't write about right down in Matthew 25 when it talks says the kingdom of God is like a nun to what ten virgins ah what role do the ten virgins have in that marriage they're guests so are we guest s-- to the marriage is that our role is that our function in life to be guests you have to say yes because Matthew 25 teaches that but there's a big issue isn't there because if it's a marriage who's getting married the bride so who's the bride okay so we're gonna say the city but who's a city it's us so why and it's not the only model that we have why do we have these models the operate the bride from the guest why did these two separate things and I think it's an understanding of that problem that helps us to address a couple of things first of all that resolving the issue between the experience and the work the issue of the experience of the work the work of the second and third is connected to this issue about guests and bright and the other thing that it's dealing with is the issue of the same problem that we have and how we're supposed to address this not only how but when we're supposed to address this and the Lord has all of this in control all of this has been laid out and we just think rohui's maybe I've been in this movement for 20 plus years or whatever or five years still dealing with the same problem everything's going wrong and you know what the solution is this can't be the church triumphant and it comes back to this issue about is this a church triumphant or is this the church militant all of these things are laid out in the reformed lines and if you stick to the reformed lines it all sorts itself a or works so I wanted to think about that maybe through our day why we have why we're portrayed as guests at one level and the bride at another level because there must be a reason for that there must be this reason because the parables emphasize this point this dual role occurring at the same time and it's partly answered by the issue of the second and the third there's a work to do and there's an experience to be gained and they have to happen at the same time let's pray Heavenly Father we thank you for your goodness and mercy we want to ask and pray that you would allow us to have intellectual freedom the ability to express our words our thoughts and ideas in an atmosphere where we can have honest and frank discussion our words will not be rested that if there are things that are not understood we could talk about them freely long as we consider the work of the second and the third angel and how those two concepts relate to our own lives we recognize that the experience that you want us to have many of us are not having the least know we know it's your world that we do have that experience of overcoming sin and living lives that are worthy to be called Christian help us to have that experience father but at the same time we also want to ask and pray that you would give us the courage and the fortitude the intellectual ability Lord to do a work even though everything looks wrong maybe our own personal lives are wrong maybe the people that we live with are all wrong help us Lord to put those what things to one side and do a work that you want us to do be with us bless us and guide us with the rest of this day we ask and pray in the name of Jesus I mean