Lower Nature pt. 2




Publish Date: 10/26/2017
Speaker Name: Parminder Biant
Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (10-26-17) - Lower Nature pt. 2-DPCVJNi3IK0



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Aventis home 127 paragraph 2 second sentence says the words flesh fleshly or carnal lusts embraced the lower corrupt nature the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God so we've got this sentence laid out here I'm saying it's a run-on sentence which means there are two separate thoughts that are being connected together to try and make this word flesh here different to the word or the meaning of the word flesh here I think he's it's contextually incorrect is it it's destroying the intent and the thought that other white trying to portray to us regardless of whether or not we understand what the verse or the sentence means in the next sentence he says we are commanded to crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts so again you've got flesh the flesh and then kill the flesh the flesh used to lower nature the flesh cannot do anything on its own and we need to kill the flesh if we weren't still sure about that she says crucify the flesh then she says how shall we do it then she says shall we inflict pain on the body no but we need to put to death the temptation to sin the corrupt thought is to be expelled so over and over again she wants to make this point underneath in your reading of inspiration but there aren't that many paragraphs where she reiterates the point so many times over in different ways often she'll hit it once or twice maybe sometimes even three times but she's going over this point repeatedly so that we can get it really clear in our mind about what the nature of man is this threefold nature and that the flesh is not the body she still hasn't finished with doing this she says every thought is to be brought into the captivity to Jesus Christ all animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul so again we risk revising what we've already done she's already mentioned the the phrase the lower passions now she's introducing the idea of the higher powers of the soul so now she's got higher powers and we have already done this but I'm just I'll say I'm suggesting but I'm reminding ourselves that we said that this is the lower and this is the higher we know it's low because she tells it's just it's the lower and I'm saying this is the higher powers the highest powers include the intelligence or intellect and the moral so I'll take so this is a hire and this is the lower we've already read that the intellect that she the facial uses here what other phase was used in another place remember uses the phrase mind she'll be new notes the reference that we had for mind their every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ all animal propensities but to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul the love of God mushrooms rules reign supreme Christ must occupy an undivided throne so if you remember we what we took we spent a lot of time in Revelation 13 verse 2 talking about the seat remember that we get that from the first sentence the lower passions have their seat in the body and there she talks about Christ must occupy an undivided throne if we had just kept in this paragraph you could see that the word see was defined in the paragraph itself but we went to Revelation 13 which I'm suggesting we shouldn't have done in the first place we should have worked through this paragraph and seen if it was defining itself and you can see that it is actually it's it I don't think it's a good idea to take the easy route and go other places but we did all animal propensities are subject are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul the love of God is to reign supreme Christ must occupy an undivided throne our bodies are to be regarded as his purchased possession the members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness how do we understand these last three two and a half step three sentences love of God must reign supreme Christ must occupy an undivided throne our bodies are to be regarded as his purchased possession the members the body to become instruments of righteousness let's do the first of those three love of God must reign supreme Christ must occupy an undivided throne what's the first thing we notice sorry my sister rainy okay the first thing I thought we might have noticed that it's a run-on sentence yeah yeah but it's a run-on sentence that there's a repeating enlarge or there's a kalise occur a strong connection between these two thoughts the love of God must reign supreme Christ must occupy an undivided throne so you've got a throne in you've got what reigning so this person who's going to reign and there's a person who's going to sit on a throne so it says the love of God must reign supreme so who's supposed to reign in the first bit the love of God must reign supreme so who is the love of God can't even say what it is who is it Christ can we see that so Christ is the love of God and he must reign supreme he must occupy an undivided throne so if I were to ask you it's okay to reign but what does it mean what is the word supreme mean brother Johnson you hey Johnson where's the difference between this throne and the season the body what's the difference so my sister said there's no difference it sounds to me like that there are two seeds or 2010 states of two throws yeah that's what it sounds like - you know my sister what'd you say she did he said the see and she said it's the throne yeah so she said there's one and he said sounds like two so I'm asking her to defend her position to get to what he's safe I just that's just what's my first reaction and five okay so this is what brother Jonathan Lee suggested yeah so this one is who's sitting on that one okay so put LP and who's on this one okay so it says the love of God will put its Christ yes so we've got Christ here so what what you've seen since was if you say this C which should be not resigning God's love but that he should be on the throne and under seat and not our will so you've seen a different model you've seen there's only one throne sign thread that we had at the beginning so instead of my will 100% throw your what my will your what will your what choice choice your what read the first sentence your why no the first sentence in the paragraph just you do to a computer the lower passions have their so what was on there before instead of our higher passion should be a high fashion you shouldn't be what should be there you said he we go with it instead of what you said he said of the will but it's not he said of the wood it's instead of the lower instead of the lower passions so here we had the lower passions so instead of the lower passions what should be they're not the love of Christ is love of God which is God which is Christ which is quite so we're going to get rid of the lower passions you're saying so we get rid of him and Christ you're developing that model okay so what happened is that what your face is too similar yes one Road but it shouldn't be divided it says so web with low fashions brother Larry work on the seat what can we call you that what we call in the seat because in this one it's called a C and in this one it's called a throne remember we went to Revelation 13 verse 2 because the dragon gave him his power seat and great Authority so we would we weren't doing it correctly I don't think that's not the good way to approach the problem we should have looked to see if we could see the seat in the paragraph but we didn't but if you see it contextually my sister saying the seat in the throne of the same thing you're my firm understanding you correctly and brother Jonathan saying to see the throne of two separate things but in the context of the paragraph deuce does it look to you that the C is the throne it's the same thing okay let me finish this thought if crises on here wanted a lower passions okay so they're not on the throne bro don't then you know answer question are often number one the lower passions is a part of the nature of man this sounds to say yeah yeah it sounds to me like if there is just Christ on the throne I got rid of my lower passion like I cut my thumb off and I don't think that works okay what is it saying the passage it has to happen to the lower passions crucified me it says kill it so you're saying it sounds like if you get rid of him here you're gonna kill him Indy says to kill him doesn't it is that what it says to kill him do you kill it once do you have to in desert safe but if I if I have to kill it let's say every day this means it's it's still there but I need to kill it okay but if you're gonna if you take the literal if you crucify someone you only die once okay you're bringing ideas like force as I die daily and concepts like that which week which is which I don't they are going to damage anything that we're saying but in this fantasy paragraph it says you kill him so we'll put kill the lower passioned so are you okay that there aren't two have you know there are two that there are not yes that we are commanded to kill the flesh what else I can see the deceit and the throne is the same thing can see in any of the words and then II of the phrases when Jesus died he went to heaven and he did what remember let's think about these contents what he did when he goes to heaven trace that way so what does that mean he said at the right hand of God with with with Dallas he says go to the Father where's the father so the father is on the throne and he says I'm sitting on the right hand what does that mean there must be another throne so you've got two Thrones in heaven and if you're someone's right-hand man what are you what's the right hand man name it might not be the safe position but if I said right if I was the boss and I said this is my right-hand man but maybe we use it differently in the UK than you do here vice-president or advisor or helper yeah but as long as you're an adviser you're the helper but you're on a throne so you have some level of authority so I'm suggesting the model that you have in heaven is a divided throne you have the father and the son sharing some kind responsibility because he doesn't say I just sat on any sea he says i sat at the right hand or the Father implying that he has a throne yeah so I in this context this model I'm saying it's a divided throne that they've got and it says in the passage what undivided so I think if we if we if we read really carefully that when it says this throne contextually you can't even make an additional throne come in because at the beginning there weren't two Thrones when Christ was in heaven before how many Thrones worthy before he came to earth only one I think there were two Thrones before he comes to earth and that Thrones vacant then he goes back and takes up his throne I don't think they like they said oh we'll put another chair next to the Father that throne was already there even in eternity when people didn't even realize it peopled the Angels even when they didn't realize there was another throne there it was always there at least in concept even if not it was that they could see does that make sense wasn't Christ always the co eternal ruler yeah he was always there his train was always there was always two Thrones not even discussing the issue of about the Holy Spirit but I'm not saying they could literally see that throne they have a revelation sometime back in eternity there did you know that Jesus is the Son of God he's the person that you supposed through worship and bow down to which means he must have had a throne so when he came back down when he came to the earth his throne was vacant and he just goes back and picks up his throne again I'm suggesting that is a parable I'm not trying to say there's little Thrones but in this story there's only a singular throne so I would say not that you have two Thrones but you have this model that you would say this you'd be sharing the throne or sharing the kingdom because that's what that is isn't it two Thrones it means you're sharing rulership when you had you know when you have people who have vice-gerent in Old Testament stories where you have the father the son ruling at the same time you have that quite often sometimes he'll tell you that the father's the king sometimes you'll tell you the sons the king because they're cold ruling at the same time so I'm saying if you can do that it's the same as doing this just the one big throne and he says I won't have this situation so if I won't have this situation only I'm going to rule which means you have to kill the lower passions and so let's see where all of that is happening since the lower passions have this seat in the body so we've got the seat in the body that's okay then let's drop down she's going to explain that the lower passions of the flesh fleshly carnal lusts it's the lower nature she's defined it and all of these different words then she says we need to kill the flesh which means take it off the seat shall we inflict pain on the body no but we need to put to death the temptation to sin so when you kill the temptation to sin it's the same as crucifying the flesh the corrupt thought is to be thrown out every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ all animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul the love of God must rule supreme so if you see how that's being done it says every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ so the thoughts must become slaves of Jesus the corrupt thought is to be thrown out and has it saying the temptation must be killed I've worked backwards all of those things are saying that on this singular throne that you had all this seat because it says the sea with a lower power seats he needs to come off and if he comes off Christ needs to come back on so I don't think you can show that there are two seats here so do one seat in theory but he says I won't do it because I won't do that looking at you you decide if you're gonna have me or him ruling one of us are gonna roll so in theory you could because in theory you can have a father and a son ruling brother Larry do you have the passage CD CD house isn't with you is to begin at the very seat of all difficulties the heart and then from out of the heart will issue the principles of see is the heart you see that that's what we that's what we do find it before yes we said this is the sea so I think we say this is the heart and the heart is the seat and it's in the body and the last sentence oldest the the next sentence Christ must occupy an undivided throne we did that our bodies are to be regarded as his purchased possession the members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness so what are the members of the body physical body contextually that's what she's saying yeah it's our arms legs it's our senses the members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness of doing good things and how does that work our sister we say where is the cord you mean who does the Gandhi oh the sentence itself yeah or is it in because the Bible says it is that what it would be is that what oh you mean it is the command in the passage yes I think we says we are commanded to crucify the flesh someone is telling us to do this work so somewhere here there's a command and the command tells you to do something PBS yeah PBS History Channel the Bible you could watch a documentary and he says this is not a good idea to eat pork high fat diets are bad for you there's a command to stop doing living that way it could be any kind of command could you not tell me what you think must be 10 commandments is that we're in the writings of Paul okay you want to go to a specific place that we said we might okay you asking is that Bible quote she's talking about yes it must be because you've already said fleshly life is breathing it see it as that those are the commands which Paul has written oh okay yeah I'm okay with that I don't I don't have any problem the post commanding is to crucify the flesh any questions on this passage mind moral and physical distress of arms legs you tell me how you read it my Adventist mind reads arms okay I just want to be sure what's this dictionaries a limb of animal bodies as a leg and arm and ear a finger that is a subordinate part of the main body knows this is anyone only want to give a summary of this paragraph I'd like to get a couple of people to give a summary of what they understand we've learned over a lot of hours just in out of only seven eight sentences if they're subjective they're still there they're just not dominant whereas the flesh is to be crucified okay wait not we should we should have sorted that out as well we skipped that sentence okay so let's go back to animal propensities so we are commanded to crucify the flesh with the affections and the last it's dead how do we do it not by tackling the body so we don't we don't go on a diet do we and to try and lose weight try and so the problem that's the solution to our if we're overweight is to take your keys away from you so you can't drive to the shops or take your credit card away so you can't buy things all of this is not dealing with the problem you're inflicting pain upon the body but to put the death the temptation to sin the corrupt thought is to be expelled every thought is to be brought into captivity Jesus Christ all animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul yeah if we forgot to do that what if what is this what is this saying so sister Terry's kind of asking a question she's half made a statement because you asked question it says it means therefore that the animal propensity is what what are the animal prints is in this context do you think sister Tori so hunger and life if you're going to go with last basic survival if you're gonna go with lust then you I'm gonna take you all the way back it says carnal lust okay but which part of your being wants the food which part of your being gets angry now your stomach doesn't say I'm hungry you stomach doesn't feel hunger does it your stomach is just a machine that you did you actually get chemical impulses that it interact with your physical and you think that your stomach is feeling hungry or maybe say that but that's not reality reality if you didn't have a stomach yet surgery would you still feel hungry you still have the sensation of feeling hunger and then once your blood sugar begins to drop you'd still think I need to eat now you still have that so you know it's not your stomach that's doing that your stomach isn't saying I've got a clock and it's it's no two o'clock and now I need to eat because I'm doing something it's just a servant it's just a member do with that you agree with that yeah so why did we say that so yeah anybody else what it's an animal propensity I'm saying it's not the stomach the word member which says the appetites and passions considered as attempting to sin and then there's two scriptures here romans 7 5 and 23 and Colossians 3:5 yes members can be used as these passions which is I think what brother Jonathan was suggesting but I think in the context of this passage it's not about animal passions yes which is lower passions I think is it I think has a pot in it it comes under lower passions it wouldn't be higher powers I see that you know we can't confuse the Lord passions which are we are saying is the the corrupt nature you can't confuse that with the lower power of your mind and when I look at when I look at animal propensities I see those things that are in the Lord the lower powers they're the lower powers and then when I look out at the rest of nature what we see that God created I see that the rest of the animal kingdom that God has given put on this earth that they have the lower powers but they don't have the higher powers the guy gave man I've read things in spirit profited tell us that God made man and different just instinct to have higher powers okay so let's let's ask a couple of thoughts he says the lower passions I'm saying that the lower passions are the same as the lower powers is it anything inherently bad with this lower thing inherently no because if it was inherently bad God made the mistake in giving it to us so we're okay on that basis so we'll give what let's give one thing that's in this in this realm anger so anger in and of itself isn't bad but it can be you could have a good anger or bad anger so when we talk about it being lower and corrupt that means the anger that you're exhibiting is corrupt anger but anger in there in and of itself is not is neutral it serves a purpose it serves a good purpose or jealousy or any of those emotions the problem is we've gone so far down the line we tend to think most of those things and negative things so is last- it's it's not now by definition it's not it can't be negative because that means when you put together you never had any last and last suddenly came into you after you sinned and weird and wake where did that come from that last way we could it have come from if it wasn't part of you it must have been created mustn't it yeah if it's not part of you either Satan has the ability to get things and put them into you so you're Adam plus something or God did that so so do we believe so let me ask this question this is Adam here and we'll tackle this already this is before sin so this is Bonnie what does he look like he looks like that what's on the inside okay okay so we'll we'll put the Holy Spirit here where else does he look like giving a shelter house what else that is is he would he look like he's got intellect he's got morals and he's got I put LP for lower passions he's got all of that is that the construction of a human being we were okay with that so before sin could we call that sinless or perfect yeah so now he eats the fruit he's just eaten it what does he look like now let's go with the body first has there been any change but let's look at the body first any change in the body everybody he didn't add a finger didn't lose a finger didn't suddenly shrink everything's the same yeah so does he have the Holy Spirit in him because there's no Holy Spirit so does he have an intellect does he have moral power and does he have lower passions yeah I'm gonna just put a star here because we haven't done this he's he's kind of skipping ahead really I'm gonna put a star here because I'm thinking that's there's there's something we haven't tackled on that issue but we'll run with that so now he says sorry genesis 3:15 okay so this is after sin and we'll put after sin here now we'll put genesis 3:15 he's received a gospel is his body different same body this is like within minutes does he have the Holy Spirit bility okay obama genesis 3:15 i'm at genesis 3:15 the everlasting gospel is now being given to him so let me ask you another question my pleasure break does that when when Adam was offered the the everlasting gospel did he say I'll think about it when Adam was offered the everlasting gospel what was his response no yes or I'll think about it often offered offered he took it so you said it depended so he's taking the everlasting gospel so does he have the Holy Spirit no yes after two minutes ago you wouldn't sure they'd think that you obviously no I said he has the possibility because he could have rejected it yeah but I'm asking did hey that's why I put genesis 3:15 it real like okay say he's got the Holy Spirit and he's got intellect and he's got moral power and he's got lower passions to agree with that so that's after sin and this is also after sin and what do we call this condition if that was sinless this is sinful is that right he was born in the likeness of sinful flesh because you tell me where's the difference between 3 and 1 one two three so there's no difference you're saying so question is the diagram correct okay so what I want us to think about easiness on your grace okay when is underlying one is under grace which one say on that well that was before said people was he under grace so he's under grace and if you received the everlasting gospel what you under grace so one and three the same he did it didn't need any grace before he seen what's your definition of grace unmerited favor is what it is so yeah okay we'll go with unmerited favor so I call it the gear which is unmerited favor tell me what the gift is what is the gift that I've put it here but what is the gift that he's got the promise of the saved and that would be dealing from his fallen this is he being redeemed now he's been forgiven has he been redeemed no he's not being redeemed he hasn't been routine if he died the next day he wasn't yet finished the process how long does the process take to redeem someone when you accept so he's being redeemed yeah it's a it's not a process thing because you said if you died tomorrow so he would have been we would have received redemption so it takes 24 hours to get to that process what if he died one may are 30 however it's not a processing okay now I'm asking you I'm not trying to drive you into a hollow I'm saying it would be a minute or it could be a thousand years since I could die the second later it's still a process it's a duration a minute is a duration so if I said to you you're forgiven is there a process or you just forgiving so it's not a process then I think isn't a process in a way that tomorrow I mean today I'm forgiven but tomorrow I could follow and I still need grace I still need forgiveness every day but what's the process in that that every hour every hour I have to crucify the flesh but that's not a process of my understanding of a process is this you have some wheels stacked up on a shelf and you have a door that stacks up on a shelf and you put them together on an assembly line because you've got your car here and it doesn't have a door and it doesn't have any wheels of processes that you have to put things one after another but to sin and then repent and then sin and repent isn't a process because what you're doing is you're saying the cars will bill up all everything sorted out which is a which is repented it's all fixed then you have a car accident and you have a blowout so when you blow out you have to come back to the garage and get a new tire but that's not a process because once you're repented the car is left the assembly line and it's all full proper functioning car some it's gone wrong afterwards you had an accident and someone dented your door so then you need to go back and get a new door to fix that problem but I would suggest that's not a process as if you think about the dictionary definition of what processes are like they're an assembly line you start off with one part and you add to it like the ingredients of a of a cake or bread or something you go through a process to go from stomach there isn't to something there is it's all fully completed and once it's completed if something goes wrong in that you're not continuing the process you have to in some shape or form start again so that sounds sort of reasonable so I understand about sin and repent and we have to hold on so I agree with that but I guess what I'm challenging is I don't think it's a process is that okay first of all if you look at the statement that in the Bible this grace is sufficient God's grace we're talking about grace and if God's grace is sufficient and if you do a study and then throughout the Scriptures I have come to find that that the grace is synonymous with divine power because wall hmm divine power did they walk it's God's divine power for us to to to walk in his ways for us to do what's right okay so you're saying grace is a gift which is power to do right is that what you say yeah to live right kept right thinking I don't know I'm just do agree with that definition my sister do you agree with that definition absolutely a sister Esther what I want to say that we have to think about it the body changed - I would say after then after then after by obviously uh correct but this this is like five seconds afterwards and this is a couple of minutes afterwards tell me what changed it was in the body after a couple of minutes I think you would be pain he didn't have pain before he hasn't even eaten anything from here to here I think before they has no pain you so why would why do we have nerves and sensory perceptions may fate put his hand in the fire he wouldn't I felt pain but God said to Eve it's going on now when you can have child he said this not before yeah I lost you can Adam have pain before sin people he's handing the firewood he experienced pain no the time would have all burnt up and he says all this knows good there no need of fire if the if we would doing something in the tree in the tree banged his hand or something if I have any accidents he can't make any mistakes so if it'll be perfect and he had the Sun so when the Sun is learning to walk that some wouldn't tripped over and grazed his knee or something they just can't happen I've asked this is the wrestler yeah that's what you're saying you're saying there could be no damage there could be no injury only death but you said you're suggesting that as a child grows up they could never make any mistakes they could never have hurt themselves I gave you simply gone poor that they could never fallen over they could never fall over okay so if it's not written in the Bible then we're having a philosophical argument which is okay but I'm saying it doesn't seem to me be bait to be based upon reality that when we see what human beings are like regardless of the issue of sin that it takes practice to make things perfect people have to learn things it doesn't come up people have to be taught which means they would make mistakes and in the mistake you can get hurt brother Jonathan mistake whatever the mistake is it's not sin and it's okay for ya basically it's it's not been a mistake it's not a sin so then my question would be what is a mistake I don't know I don't know slip into the mistake I just wanna make sure so that we've got some kind of awareness where would not be agree cuz I think we're gonna agree on this one is that a mistake would produce pain yeah I'm saying back here in the Garden of Eden people are believing some of us believe me other people like that there wasn't any pain ever can't be any pain and I'm saying you know Adam could have not looked where he was going banged his head into a tree wouldn't have that caused pain always saying that just things like that can't happen so if you think so if you're going to do that then you then you don't believe it now you're saying God didn't create man properly there had to be a recreation here I mean the creation process stops on the sixth day it's no more creation wherever he set in a human being is fixed so you must have had the nervous system he must have been able to be able to perceive pain my question is could Adam be in a tree and falling out of the tree and hurt himself I'm not I don't know if it's like fully speculation but if you're not careful you're going to get into the place where you saying he could it was impossible for him to fall out of a tree it was impossible for him to sort of trip over and not look backwards and bang his head that just can't happen exactly I don't if that's a real model we get this is a similar argument to when Christ was on earth because we know he was perfect in all those things and so the question is could Christ have ever stubbed his toe could he have ever cried his baby or you know some of these different things and some people say no but some people say yes but I think it like you're saying it directly affects your reality of or your perception or your their different perceptions of what one sinlessness is and - about what so we Jesus he's three this his intellectual capability it's so good that he could have gone to university and you know passed all that in a got a first class degree and done that and then an MA in the PhD when he seeks we we don't believe that do we so when he's in the carpenter shop and his father says okay you're six you can't touch the tools and he'll say of course I can cuz I'm perfect I'm never gonna hurt myself touching sharp instruments you think that would real a real dynamic with this perfect man who hasn't done anything this father says no you just sweep the shavings that's what your job is for a six-year-old because you can't touch tools they're dangerous because what the inference would be tools could have been dangerous for Jesus when he's a young child like they are for a normal child and then when these father says okay we'll start hammering nails and when he hammers are now he could never have missed an L and banged his finger things like that couldn't have happened or he couldn't have never put the nanny straight his father would never had had to teach him anything in fact the first day he started doing anything he was better than his father in quality of his workmanship all of that is just isn't reality Bobby Johnson in brother Bob and we know that God feels pain of fear so that's what we have a logical reason to say Adam yeah like that but Bob that sister listen I don't want to complicate this conversation but I have a question if you look at Jesus who took on humanity for eternity okay and walked in the flesh when when he he walked on the water okay we can't walk on water right nothing that you know right now you know and look Gus had buying purpose to walk on water yeah how he did it yes okay all right but then he did did he not appear and in his flesh in a closed room to his disciples you know that they could touch him and feel him and he was there but he got in the room without the door opening how did he do that we got again it's just a question and and and so I know he's God but but he if he has a if he is Jesus in the flesh how did he do that and so I think that there's things that we're touching on here that we don't all have the answers to possibly sister they said why didn't they protect you so you never got hurt in your life once so Adam could have got hurt once in his life no but you're saying he couldn't have cause behind it not could've but the inference is the Angels would look prevented my Adam will hold you up cuz you can't fall on the tree do you gonna check your back to trip up we'll stop that happening I'm asking is that your version of reality so the Angels must like you and not the other people because there's about five people in here about a car accident was that a bad day then you ain't even you're like you asked or was it rhetorical so do you believe in that every word is inspired in the Bible of course yeah what are a question please ask the calls 911 911 takes important I just want to pick up the last phrase but time and chance happiness to them all we do we actually believe they're just time and chance happiness well do believe everything is pre engineered and designed and God says today I'll let you have the accident but tomorrow I won't do we just do we just believe in coincidences we're gonna say no but that means if but if we say that I don't feel pain we create some type of strange super beam that really it would be very unbalanced I mean I was talking about you know put your hand in the fire and all that kind of stuff but when Eve comes to him here and he looks at her what's he beginning to feel he's not feeling pain yeah because he's emotional pain but that those emotions were created by external sources through his senses whether away it was his fingers got chopped off or whether his eyes are looking at this wife that he's about to lose so right here he can experience pain so let's just go back to grace I'm suggesting grace is not a process there might be different parts to grace but grace is the is the power to do right so here he's Adam doing right he's Adam doing wrong he's doing right and wrong isn't he because he sins in this condition so he had the power to do right and he chooses not to and over here does he do right yeah he has power to choose to do right or not to do right so I'm not sure why we think that isn't there both of them aren't under grace why we think that he wasn't under grace in he is except for one thing because when we say it's unmerited favor the word the phrase unmerited favor covers a lot of territory and there's some unmerited favor that he doesn't need before he'd been in this inner state what does he not need he doesn't need forgiveness and forgiveness he's packaged into this gift so there are some things that he doesn't need but there are some things he does need because if you're going to use this definition he needs that to carry on functioning just like he does but back here is different to this one because it's also if you will say forgiveness but I change it to something else is to pay the debt which we could call the baggage yeah because it isn't that what forgiveness is what does forgiveness mean which one's so for you which ones is e which ones which forgiveness or debts is he paid for yeah that's what I want to say it's the ones in the past because everything you've done in the past you can't you can't undo you can't sort out the mess you can't take your words back in you but you can see it same sorry doesn't sort out the problem I mean you can function and carry on you can go into the future having said sorry but it doesn't sort out the pastor does it I mean if you stole five dollars and then you pay the five dollars back he doesn't undo the damage because you can't go back into time and undo that you can sort the problem out but you still have something to take care of and that's why I think people say I think that's why my sister was saying that he's not under grace because she was thinking this one he hasn't he doesn't have to deal with this but he does so grace has got a couple of components to it one of them is this one and one of them is this one okay to ask for help to do right but it's also to ask for help to pay the day that's why people use unmerited favor or a gift or ask for help because you've got artists what help do we need you need someone to pay a debt that you cannot pay I'm not sure I'm saying that phrase is as good as it is in German as it is in English it covers a lot of territory covered I think grace at this level is in two things and I tend to call it grace one and grace too so grace one is pay the day grace to ease power to not get into debt again so you never need to get into debt again so if we said sorry today and from now onwards we never did sin would we would everything be okay because there's a debt that has to be paid so Jesus is going to incarnate for a few reasons why does what's one of the reasons Jesus incarnates is he incarnated to do this how does he incarnated do this what did he do how did he sort this one out grace one sorry so he dies on the cross so why can't he died on the cross in heaven if if this is if dying on the cross is paying the day why can't he just pay the day because if some third-world country owes a debt to the World Bank and then then all the people in the who own who run the World Bank they say all the rich countries they say you know what we'll just write the so you're debt-free they didn't have to go there and do something they can you said on our computers this and we just write it off I mean they could have added discussion or something but they don't need to be there live in the country or do anything so why does Jesus need to come to earth why does he need to incarnate if all he's doing is paying they say the same person who killed him here on earth his father Trevor pop I think he did it to show that in England in our our bodies do that he can show that there is by by living by the divine power his Heavenly Father supplied him and we have the same access to the we can learn we have the power to do right now that's not this one this is great one this is what my sister was saying he does not need grace one we need great one because he never had any day so why does he need to incarnate for this one because yo you ain't just grace - because we made the group that we made the dent in our bodies we were who we are yeah but he just says I'll let you off I mean that's only that's only saying isn't it no did the father kill Jews I need you're gonna pick up on that that's a breakfast camera I'm suggesting if you're gonna if great is this is this your definition of grace Jesus can do that any way you could have done that perfectly well in heaven it doesn't need to come to earth how do you know you even came to earth by the way how do you even know he came now I mean how do you know you just read some pages that's not evidence you don't know you might you read a sake I believe it No okay the Bible says he died in heaven or on Mars or somewhere else what difference would it make to you what difference would it make where he died you still say he loved me he died to me because I heard he like he died to me on another planet or in heaven because I wasn't there anyway he gives me power to stop doing sin so that's all okay but why you don't even know he died here on earth except that you read it and what material impact does it have upon you if you're just thinking about this one I'm suggesting it doesn't brother Tyler because he's gonna do the thing you couldn't you haven't been able to do yes sir I should have done this the other way ride remember this when he says the second one he that's the second one that's what he made this number two I'm saying he comes down on earth to address this issue which is what brother Bob said but this one he doesn't he could have done that anywhere I'm not arguing that he doesn't need to die I think you can develop a legal argument to say he has to die to pay the day because you can't just do money laundering or you can't you know cheat on the books it has to be all done properly but he doesn't need to come to earth to do that one he doesn't need to come down to us and say okay the Roman soldier does it because no one's prepared to do it in heaven they could have find someone to do that if they could have said Satan you come up and do it I'm sure he would have be more than happy that's okay you know if you just let me do it I'll kill you in heaven each week he could have done okay no I mean if you're going to make it a Roman soldier Satan could have done that work anyway I'm sure even what he will do who killed Jesus he was if you're gonna say it's Aten yeah the Roman soldiers the Jews say safety is inspiring them to do that work so Satan's at the back of that and Satan wants to kill Jesus anyway he could have just done that he was trying to kill him all the way through his life but angels protected him when he comes to Nazareth they want to kill him throw him over the cliff how does he manage to escape that the angels take him away just like they protect us someone had to hand up Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world and from there you know okay so listen Roe any more questions don't you be born in the likeness of man and we've talked about that before about when Kane was born he was born without the Holy Spirit when Christ was born he was born with the Holy Spirit but um under the law fallen man is that this one or this one which one is it addressing it's under paying the debt because the debt that's owed you know it was uh it began with Adam but it falls on on all you know fallen mankind o Adam sons but why does he need to die here on earth why can't he died anyway why doesn't he think would be a human being to pay the day because the debt is is charged to the sinner it's charged to say it's charged to you and he says I'll take that debt off you I'll pay it why can't he pay it anywhere why does he have to pay it here on earth because I don't know it's just it wouldn't be just it has to be like you were talking about before I can't just charge it on anybody it has to be on us we deserve it it's just agree he's taking your day but my argument is this one here he has to come on earth to saw out but this one he doesn't he could have done that anyway so I I don't I don't want to push the point if we got on shore or if you don't even agree did you answer the question what is the difference now between okay so that's why I'm taking us out I'm just gonna move on so it seems to me that there's no difference between this one and this one and I guess some disagree with sister Esther that the body is the same so here he's eating the fruit from the tree of life and I don't know how that works but I'm assuming that it tops you up just like food does he you know when you eat food you turns into sugar and you and your your your your insulin levels rise up and then those insulin levels sustain you for the next ten hours or whatever it's going to do depend on what the food that you eat so I assume that's what the tree of life does you eat the fruit and it sustains you immortally until it effects wear off and then you eat it again and I get that from the fact that God says take the tree away because if you don't what's going to happen to their bodies they remain immortal even though all of this is not working properly there's a okay so you're in here but your physical body will keep on getting repaired and getting sorted out so it won't die so he has to take the tree of life to make sure that doesn't happen and in the next few minutes wherever he's it wherever his body was it's the same body so I'm saying I don't think there's any difference between this one and this one and that's been my argument from the very beginning about not making the physical body part of the problem now I know that here this he's got a lot of problems to deal with you know even though it looks identical there are issues going on I understand that but at this level he looks identical to this person so this was Adam let's go down 4000 years and now we've got Jesus so when Jesus is born when he's created as a human being is this body the same as this body the same as this one or this one is the body the same now there are some changes we agree with that but if he had five fingers as he fi fingers yeah so there are no structural differences between the two we agree with that he if you looked at him you might not be able to tell the difference he might not look as beautiful as Adam did you want to be a symmetrical but fundamentally he looks the same but there are some big differences in his body yeah what about on the inside does he does he have the holy spirit so he has the holy spirit and he has intellects moral and lower passions and he's born in sinful flesh isn't he it was created in the likeness of sinful flesh then we rephrase it that way because people catch me up on that so if this is Jesus and this was Adam can you see they all look the same three and prevail look the same outside he's just a smaller version of this person smaller version of this person but they all look the same so if we're going to say there's a difference between this person okay it is there a difference between this person this person Adam after he sinned two minutes later and Christ when he comes four thousand years later is there a difference in anything tell me it is there a difference and if it is tell me what the difference is okay so Michael so there's a difference that so my question is does it make a difference they are different but does it make a difference no because he's gonna why does he wait 4000 years why doesn't he sort it out here sorry to remove the argument he wants to remove the argument that his physical body doesn't make a difference for us because we are 2,000 years down the road and if the body would be part of the argument then we are in the worst condition in Jesus was 2,000 years before yep so there's not just size changes there's chemical issues that's going on there's DNA damage that's happened his great-great-great grandfather committed adultery repeatedly killed many many people and that begins to have an impact on his DNA so I don't know people like bringing science into a prophetic class but the latest research that I've seen them bump shittim it's not I'm not the research or anything but they know now that if you do something when your cells die in you and they replicate those new cells the DNA that's going to unravel and do whatever it's going to do and create this new cell your environment changes that DNA subtly as you go through your life so if you're a drug addict as an example your DNA will will be warped and distorted in consideration of that drug addiction that you have and so when your child is born by inheritance this isn't spiritual inheritance this is physical inheritance they will have an addiction to drugs it's in their DNA I don't need only people will challenge that idea I think it's well documented Alan White says it I mean she said that over 100 years ago science has just caught up but now we're able to explain how that happens it's the warping of the DNA so if you have got drug addiction and you've been a drug addict for as a teenager you hit 22 and you and you go and you stop that what you'd want to do as an example this is I don't get into the morality of this but you do want to wait a few years before you have children you in a few years your selves as they replicate the DNA will will work its way out and I don't say right itself I'm gonna express it that way it'll correct itself and so when you have a child if you're 35 the drug addiction that's in your DNA has been taken out through the replication of all these new cells and they won't have that problem so when Jesus comes not only is he's a smaller he's got all that DNA damage running through his veins if I can sing express it that way he's got a doll tree he's got lying stealing all the bad things that you can imagine in his physical body so he's got all of that to deal with and and this person never had to deal with that problem in his body he never had that DNA damage so I'm not just trying to make the DNA damage that you know we have stomachaches and all of that problem it's far worse than that far worth in his very physical being he's got this what Ellen White calls a propensity and this is regardless of his evey spiritual being and his physical being he's got a bent to do stuff brother Larry no it's not sin it's the consequences of sin so it's not sin that you only have four fingers you know gives if you chopped the finger off it that wasn't any sin if you make a mistake it's not sin there's the consequences of sin because if you had chopped your finger off in the Garden of Eden God was sorting the problem out he's not gonna let you go for eternity with four-and-a-half fingers like he did here on earth he heals people who restores them if that was if it could happen that you could shop it over I think he probably could it could be repair could we sort it out just like if you had a graze or something but the repair is perfect you don't get scarring perhaps yes yeah they're examples after examples that is God's ideal that if that something happens he can sort the problem out and I think he would have done that I don't know how he would do that so here you've got all of this DNA damage and does it make a difference it doesn't make the difference and how do you express it brother Tyler yeah it removes the argument that the body it doesn't have any impact on the character or how you behave or how you respond to sin so I don't want to play word games with Lee when it says the likeness of sinful flesh I don't play games with that what like this means like but all I want to say is that wherever he came in it was the same that Adam came in here they're identical except that he's got a lot harder a lot tougher and the white says he would have been an infinite humiliation for Christ not only to have come as that person but even to have come as that person it was humiliation to you know to sink gone into this thing his humiliation let alone this one but he comes into this one and it's not just his size that the issue is it's oddly damaged or the corruption that's in his physical makeup that he has to contend with and does Jesus never do any sin why that's the issue is why doesn't he do sin and that was what grace - is I call it grace - people might express it differently it's to address this issue and the first thing you wants to show us that it's not to do with the body and we have to not make excuses about what our bodies are or not sister Alyssa yes thank you we're just about there in the class yeah slow down if you're reading what you've what you've written and people won't catch that okay the collective mass or a number of the United individuals who have given Jesus Christ Authority and subjection over their passions and appetites for the purpose of being prepared for loving God with their whole mind heart strength anyone else we did pick up a little propensity can pick up a little principes I'll tell you I like Adam apprentices these are these there's lower passions when they become animalized some in things are good it's anger you have good anger and bad anger the bad anger I think is the animal propensities but the whole thing since the text let me not give it any more knackers so these maids your fence yes wouldn't that have changed over time so it is the DNA damage it's your inclination to follow your passions being a damage is not lower passions DNA damages the body passions are not the body but they affect them yes for sure they affect them so it just becomes harder and harder if you're going to think about Redemption it becomes harder and harder to sort out Redemption as you go down the road is that if we're going to take it that way yes he has to deal with a lot harder problems than he ever had to then put animal propensities ok we've run out of time maybe we need to address that a bit more maybe I'm wrong but I think he is but it might be wrong and I think it speaks volumes to the degradation that has occurred to to man living here at the end of time where the weakest generation that's ever lived on this planet in some ways and in how many classes have we had to take to even understand this correct or a model what God is trying to teach us it's not like we can just learn it like this we have to it it just it just speaks volumes to where we're at today yes thank you so I believe flesh equals and lower passions which equal the corrupt nature the crucify the flesh equals to kill the emotions the desire the feelings animal propensities is the lower passions which the there is subjection that's my question kill these motion crucifying subjection that is that since version of it it's okay we will be running out of time to do it now are the lower powers okay so maybe we've got 24 hours no we haven't we've got four days or something I think till Monday I'm not here on Sunday for Monday we've got four days to miss that's our homework a whole look is to do a summary yeah let's do homework two pieces to summarize in a nice statement what this paragraph is teaching and to try to understand what any more propensity czar let's pray Heavenly Father as we consider our own nature how you constructed us and what the same problem has created and how we deal with that same problem we want to ask for wisdom and understanding as my brother mentioned it's taken us many hours to come to this place where we can begin to unravel and through your grace and your wisdom to begin to correctly understand how we were constructed and put together so that we can see what it means to be a representative of your kingdom to be a son of God who not only doesn't sin but cannot sin father help us to understand these things in a clearer fashion is our prayer in the name of Jesus I mean