Lower Nature pt. 1




Publish Date: 10/25/2017
Speaker Name: Parminder Biant
Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (10-25-17) - Lower Nature-VMIniT1kWmc
YouTube ID: VMIniT1kWmc



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we've seen that the work of the third angellist to select and seal we've addressed that issue hopefully we've come to some level of understanding about Ezekiel chapter nine and we've tried to address the issue of Matthew 13 when it comes to the reign and the ability of the servants to be able to discern between the wheat and the tares so I want to go back to some of the material that we were studying at the beginning just going to read from review and Herald January the 10th 1882 it's one we've already read before unless anybody's got any more questions on this we'll probably still come back to it in a cycle Bert hopefully it was all clear review and Herald January the 10th 1882 paragraph 1 the nature of man is threefold and the training enjoined by Solomon comprehensive right development of the physical intellectual and moral powers so we address this issue of the threefold nature and its intellectual moral and physical in this passage the other white doesn't put it in this order she puts it the physical intellectual and moral and I think what she's trying to do is guide us into a state from lower to higher powers and importance so I think she's marking that out for us then we want to go back to Adventist home one two seven paragraph two Adventists home one to seven paragraph to the lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it the words flesh fleshly or carnal lusts embrace the lower corrupt nature the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God we are commanded to crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts how shall we do it to inflict pain on the body no but put to death the temptation to send the corrupt thought is to be expelled every thought is to be brought into some into captivity to Jesus Christ all animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul the love of God must reign supreme Christ must occupy an undivided throne our bodies are to be regarded as his purchased possession the members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness I think cause I've already expressed there's a lot of misunderstanding and confusion about the nature of a human being and if we're going to consider the threefold nature is intellectual moral and physical based just upon this passage and there are many other quotes that people come up with and some of them seem to mitigates against what I'm teaching or I'm suggesting that she's going to say and I believe she's quoting from Paul mostly the words flesh fleshly or carnal lusts embraced a lower corrupt nature and the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God she's marking three things what we're saying about the physical I'm saying it's not the body so the fact that nobody had said means that maybe you don't all agree with that it takes a lot to I think a lot of undoing event of preconceived ideas to it to accept this clearly is when you read the passage there it says are we supposed to retain a body then she says no and then talks about us being able to take the duties that the corrupt thought is to be expelled I think the reason why people have difficulty in this is because after 6,000 years of sin the chemical nature of our body you know the way our nerves work the electrical impulses what we ate has an impact upon who and what we are I think we all know that and I think that's why people struggle any other thought when you say it's a big deal what is the big deal if you can overcome your diet you can overcome every besetting sin in the context of this study I mean I inserted passage itself let's go to mark 719 no sorry Matthew 1517 let me just say I think that I think they're the same passage yeah they're the same passage we'll probably read both of them Matthew 15 1517 right and we might have to go back a few verses we'll pick up from verse 15 15 15 then answered Peter and said unto Him declare unto us this parable jesus said ye also yet without understanding do not ye yet understand that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly and is cast out into the draught but those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart and they defile the man through out of the heart proceed evil thoughts murders adulteries fornications thefts false witness blasphemies these are they so these are the things which define a man but to eat with unwashen hands the fire lists not a man what is it what's it talking about here as opposed to okay let's just back up a few verses I've seen your hand elder Jeff I just want to just wanted to have fun to go let's go to verse 10 and he called the multi who didn't said unto them hear and understand not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man but that which cometh out of the mouth this defileth a man and then they have this discussion the the similar one is in mark chapter 7 verse 19 which we may or may not read older Jeff he hideth did you know what the pylgeun is it comes from the higher nature the heart not your lower nature does it it's not the flesh that defiles you it's what your seeds out of your higher nature which includes your heart and your intellectual so we we just read Matthew 1517 that was the main verse and then it's mark seven nineteen fifteen seventeen and seven nineteen we'll go to mark will pick up from verse fourteen seven fourteen and when he had called all the people unto him he said unto them hearken unto me every one of you and understand there is nothing from without a man that entereth into him can defile him but the things which come out of him these are they which defile the man If any man have ears to hear let him hear and okay that's so and when he had was entered into the house from the people his disciples asked him concerning the parable so obviously this is a parable he's speaking of he said unto them are ye all are you so without understanding also the ye do you not perceive that whatsoever thing from within from without entering into the man it cannot defile him because it enters not into his heart but into the belly and goeth out into the draught purging all meats and he said that which cometh out of the man that defileth the man for for from within out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts adulteries fornications murders thefts covetousness wickedness deceit lasciviousness an evil eye blasphemy pride foolishness all these evil things come from within and defile the man so I'm not going to go to any spirit prophecy quotes but I thought think we know that other than wait really the simple way to actually mitigate against what Jesus is saying they doesn't she Terry or how do you understand that okay so yeah they're saying that the issue is whether you're not you wash your hands or not so what's Jesus saying when he says it's not what you eat it's what you say that makes you defiled is he saying you can eat anything I don't mean you know unclean foods or whatever because they've already got that strict regulation but just generally doesn't matter what you eat doesn't affect you what you eat doesn't affect your character or who you are and what you are so how do we understand this passage that's right what is the parable what's the explanation of the parable because he explained it from verse 18 onward are ye so without understanding also do you not perceive that whatsoever thing from without entering into the man it cannot defile him is that talking about food cannot defile you the heart is like the thoughts or the feelings necessarily having an effect per se on those feelings not like the things that come from within the foolishness the adulterous Ness well I see this issue having to do with Foss all the way around has to do with thoughts and because in 127 and that's one 127 paragraph 2 it says the corrupt thought is to be expelled and when Jesus was even on the mouth talking to the people he says if you've lusted after someone you've already committed adultery if you've thought evil against your brothers you're already committed murder so it really has to do with the thoughts for example not washing your hands with the fire of yourself but mark here is saying what Jesus is saying basically those things don't defile you it's the things your heart like your spiritual what do you have that's what defiles do not know these customs traditions if you break them okay so is this is this a Council on diet reform no and believes that or should I say lack of diet reform because he says he doesn't matter he's not really saying doesn't matter what you eat it will not defile you what did ya cancelled on what the files men is it the lower nature or the higher nature that defiles man so when you say what you defining lower nature is the emotional system which of itself cannot sin okay but he's talking about the body here and he said if you eat something that food will not defile you do we think that food defiles us I guess that's my question brother Nathan Christ is trying to give him a lesson on the nature of man and the subject trying to wipe away the preconceived ideas that were placed there by the Pharisees as to what defiles a man so he's trying to show them that you know that instead of looking from without they need to be looking from within okay so let me ask this question I say two hands up if you have a meal and you eat fruit and vegetables at the same time sorry bad news okay so if you eat fruit and vegetables at the same time are you defiling your body yeah and that's why I know the council's not to a mosque in if you did that would you define let me rephrase that not defiled your body would you become defiled let me rephrase it that way a dictionary let's put up a dictionary definition then profane that means when God looks at you it's sinful it's it's it's unclear he looks at you as something that's wrong and that is not good if you defiled decide Islamic that's holy set apart for good use or something that's just corrupt so when God looks at you then you have become alienated against maybe I think that's what I would understand if all this sister Chappell Adam brother Mario didn't ldj Christ is drawing a line between the spiritual what is the spiritual and what is not okay so that's all I said what I'm asking if you ate fruits and vegetables would you because you asked that you are asking your question I'm for that okay brother Mary because if you eat it and if it files you make you become sinful that means you can eat something and it makes you become holy if you eat the right stuff does it make you become holy that's my question and I think that Christ there is differentiating the man from the body the man can be defiled but we know that food does not directly defile the man as what he's making the man to be as opposed to the body of the jack well maybe everyone in this room if they mixed fruits and vegetables and they knew that there was counsel against it would defile themselves from doing so but if someone didn't know that was a principle in the spirit of prophecy and they fruits and vegetables then it wouldn't defile them it may have a negative impact on their their body but as far as being profaned the Lord wouldn't look at them as profane because it's based upon life it's all about a choice for us it would be a choice his will so if week fruit maybe I'll give a different example you've got a vehicle and this vehicle is your body and you're inside and you go to the gas station though you go to a garage and you need an oil change and you're low on funds you've got two options you can either put natural or fully synthetic what would you go for fully synthetic cuz that's what the spec of the car says born it's just if you're short on cash and it needs an oil change what would you do you do your I'll change with the cheaper oil have you become defiled is the car defiled so if you wrecked the car it's not going to last the ten years that it's designed to at last five years it's all you need to do is just get a new car don't you I mean if you wrecked the car what difference does it make doesn't drive as well doesn't do what you want it to do properly but at the end of the day you just get a new car I mean is it such a big deal sorry no I mean slow fight you need an oil change because you're going to destroy the engine in ASAP so you need to change your so you go for a cheaper oil or do you go for a fully synthetic which you can't afford in for knowing full well that you're gonna shorten the life of the car I think that's what this issue is about then what you eat fruits and vegetables all you do is put in low quality oil into your body but it doesn't defile you because after 70 years it's not a big deal because you'll just get a new body afterwards run you I mean isn't that why after the flood God says no more synthetic oil everybody has to put the cheapest or they can so that the cars don't last as long and they start reducing in longevity rapidly so we're all those people defiling their bodies as though shortened in their lives put in oil in that is wrecking them I think brother Larry do you have your hand up Oh rod Johnson brother Marion said no it will work for about 20 meters you own it and it'll start up it will go for a little bit and it will just me said the worst the worst thing you put into it the quicker you'll wreck it but you're still fine you just say I'll just get a new car okay I mean depending on depending on how bad the mixture is what you actually putting into there I mean if you if you got a potent cup of coffee I don't know how many grams of coffee that you need to get enough caffeine it could kill you within minutes I mean if you in your car if you put 10% diesel in in in a petrol car it's still function shake a bit not you know but the more you put the more the ratio changes the worse it becomes because you can live a whole lifetime having a cup of coffee every day and you'll live just as long as everyone else plus or minus a year or two perhaps wherever you look at that but if you start increasing that caffeine content you can caffeine's potent enough to kill you in a single sitting if you had enough of it and I don't think it takes that much for malaria brother I think the illustration that you use here is something that probably for years has cost pataga noir between vegans and persons who eat a certain week and Paul deals with the same issue there are certain things that sister wife tells certain people in certain years that it's okay for them to eat and she causes that those things that she has given sanction for those persons to eat that we should abstain from them so those persons that are eating those things is it that she's saying that they should eat it and become defiled and those persons who are not eating it they are not be the finally sorry honey you still and the next point that I wanted to bring up is going back to the same point that Christ fully understands the separation between the body and the man what we eat if we if we eat all good and this is a theory that what you call that kind of people in the world New Age movement has they believed in eating exceptionally well and they believed that how they eat they'll glow and it will make them go on a higher level or a higher sphere that's what you eat make you become holy does it bring you closer to God those fast it make you holy all these exterior things does does that affect the man or the body your example the vehicle with the person in the vehicle speaks loudly to the fact that you're in the vehicle but the vehicle isn't you you're not the vehicle and the body and the physical body that we have is not who we are so just like he said you know the man that you identify the man or the person is separate from their body and we're talking about the man here this defiled my understanding is the reason we don't eat fruits and vegetables is because when they produce if I just say you know a bad chemical reaction in your body and they produce toxic byproducts those those things stop your body functioning properly and those things that stop your body functioning properly they make it harder for you to operate properly to do whatever you want to do but they don't in and of themselves define you because if they defiles you that would mean that you as a person would be sin and I think Jesus is directly addressing this issue I know he uses the issue of the unwashen hands to make because that's the launching point but people think that they can become holy by eating in a certain lifestyle I think Adventists have picked up on to that and they they live and believe that and it's clearly a New Age philosophy you know even in even within the church I've heard many people say milk cows milk is a poison and their people write books on these things and Adventists buy into this theology the cow's milk is poison I mean to actually think that God would allow people to eat a poison recommend it just I don't know it just seems to make it really crazy to think that God would allow us to do that even me to suggest that that's a poison berry lousy Lee allows us to eat for thousands of years Chapter seven of Mark vs believeth 18 are you so okay said that do you not perceive that whatsoever thing from without intrude into the man entering in cannot because it interests not into his heart you know when you've got a car that's really old it has some idiosyncrasies to it or the question was that we okay to drink milk he has some idiosyncrasies to it has some problems and you need to space pay special attention to a vehicle that older it gets I think we all understand if you have an old vehicle you can't just give the keys to someone else and expect them to drive it away you have to tell them you need to treat in a certain way when you're going to piss a stick shift you need to change the gear in a certain way don't press the pedal too hard don't thrash the engine and if you were thrashing so don't don't accelerate too fast you need to pay special attention to it so at the end of the world when your bodies are these old cars what you could do when the car was young you can't do to the car when it's old sorry yeah you can and it breaks really fast to the degree that you know instead of survive until you're 60 or 70 like your grandparents might you start getting problems when you're 6 7 & 8 we now can get type 1 diabetes and all the other things you begin to really hurt your body in a way that it wasn't doing that same damage you know generations ago so of course you can you can do what you want it doesn't define you just makes living a lot harder now because we've got much older vehicles it's not it's not a health class and it's not a recommendation to eat fruit and vegetables or anything hope I mean that's not the point I want us to make I want to make by want us to see that if you don't separate the physical from the spiritual you end up falling into the trap of the Jews and many Adventists are falling into this reform trap because it becomes salvation by food or drink or action or with works but this is not a call for liberalization and say you can do what you want but it's not define link Larry no restriction of your diet will cure your disease appetite God's plan with you is to begin at the very seat of all difficulties the heart and then from out of the heart will issue the principles of righteousness the Reformation will be outward as well as in 35.2 coming back to Adventist home one through seven the lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it so we're building up a model that says the physical is not the body it is the lower passions or powers he uses the word passions to direct you to what we're dealing with when he talks about the lower part of our nature the fact is it's called lower means it should be at the bottom not at the top and they have this seat in the body so we discussed all of this before so the sea is the throne there's a an intimate connection between the body the physical structure that we have and what she's going to identify is a lower passions and they work through it the words flesh fleshly a carnal lust embrace the lower corrupt nature so now she's talking about the lower corrupt nature she's using the same thing it's repeating enlarge so she's got lower passions he's lower nature but she's gonna say this lower nature is corrupt the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God we'll do that in a moment we are commanded to crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts so the crucifixion of the flesh is what it's this thing isn't it this lower passions these don't know what needs to be crucified and she's going to explain that she says how do you do that how do you crucify the flesh the affections and the last is it by inflicting pain on the body that's not the way you do it no but to put the test put to death the temptation to sin the corrupt thought is to be expelled so can you have thoughts in this part of the being let's read it again the words flesh flesh near carnal lust embrace the lower crop nature the thirst of itself cannot account you to the will of God we are commanded to crucify the flesh so you're going to crucify the flesh and then it says the corrupt thought is to be expelled so you're expelling the corrupt law and you're crucifying the flesh or the corrupt nature where we the corrupt thought come from from a corrupt nature wouldn't it so I'm suggesting that this this part of the being can have thoughts it's one Devine you said no you changed your position okay have a think and then get back does anybody else have an objection to that that the lower corrupt nature the flesh has corrupt thoughts sorry what how do we have thoughts I don't know how I'm just reading what it says and they should read it tell me how you read that differently inventive so one two seven paragraph two you find it then I guess my question is where do we have thoughts we suggested thoughts only reside here I guess that's what you're saying by that statement but it looks like we have thoughts here and here yes that's so how can one be corrupt in the other I'm just trying to marry that understand that okay so I'm not trying to deal with everything in one go I'm just saying just reading from this passage those thoughts are corrupt so are those corrupt thoughts contextually dealing with this or this just the context of the paragraph because to suggest that that corrupt thought came from somewhere else I think would not be reading the passage as she's written it because it's it's all about the flesh flesh flesh all the way through then she calls it well we'll read it again the lower passions have this seat in the body so it's lower passions the words flesh flesh near carnal lusts are all three synonyms for the word or the phrase lower passions hope I think we will agree on that all of those in grace sorry embrace the lower crop they lower corrupt nay so she's going to use another phrase using phraseology as phraseology to describe the same thing they're all repeating enlargements the flesh of itself cannot act kanji to the will of God we are commanded to crucify the flesh with the affections and the lasts so again this flesh is the same thing how shall we do it should we do something to the body no but what we're supposed to do is put to death there's temptation to sin the corrupt thought is to be expelled Denisha you agree with that min okay LBJ if I read the Bible my mind is responding to God's Word and I will have it but if I'm suddenly angry because someone's called me a name there's a thought that's generated that comes from my emotional system so I think your senses can produce thoughts cause and effect and those thoughts can come from the lower nature as well as the mine so is that green we've I've just said for the toilet not in this context but she talks about higher and nobler thoughts and if you can have a higher and noble thought then there's a corrupt thought so I guess the two types of thoughts and I don't know where you're going to this I don't know if you're gonna pull what will do that man if someone maybe even find it I'll put noble thought is that where you want to put the noble thought we'll need that I'll put it in brackets Oh I'll leave it here for the moment because the suggestion is there either it goes here so does this noble thought go here or here and I guess part of your logic was that you will also use the phrase higher okay anywhere else where they handle CCH councils to the church seventy eight point five seventeen seventy eight point five God's ideal his chilled Surrey on the contrary the religion of Christ never degrades the receiver it never makes him course or discourteous or self-important passionate or hard-hearted on the country it refines the tape sanctify the judgement and purifies and ennobles the thoughts bringing them into captivity to Christ God's ideal for his children is higher than the high human thought can reach he has given in his holy law a transcript of his character pick up one point from there did everybody hear the word captivity and captivity is what slavery so I want to just put that one thought to one side the reason why I'm picking this point up is to reinforce the idea that the physical here is not body because the body cannot have thoughts so all I want is to say the body can't have thoughts yet let me read this it says the lower passions have this seat in the body and work through it so the body and this lower passions they're connected together so if your body feels something you can get an emotional response just like if a soldier tells the king there's trouble in the land the King reacts to that or if the lower passions the king says I'm feeling angry then the soldiers going to go and punch somebody so they works both ways the senses can impact or effect the slower passion but the lower passion then Zam ends up doing things and makes the body do what it wants because it's the king or the ruler of the body which one oh is that not that okay give us a reference go hey there are persons who for some time made a professional religion who are to all intents and purposes - to all intent and purposes without God and without a sensitive conscience their vain and trifling their conversation is of a low order courtship and marriage occupy the mind to the exclusion of higher and nobler thoughts okay so she picked up a number of things on that one so we won't go into that because there's a lot they're just rustic to this one the lower corrupt make thoughts is to be the lower crop thought is to be expelled I'm understanding the word expelled here means to be killed to be destroyed and the only thing that needs to be destroyed is the flesh and the flesh is flesh fleshly carnal lust the lower nature the lower passions it's all dealing with this issue here so the reason why I'm breaking this point is because even though in the class there are people who watch in the online still haven't bought into the idea that when she says physical it's not the body people are still struggling with this concept so I just wanted to say to me it seems really clear and hopefully is becoming clearer for the rest of us so I want to come back to this passage and another point I want to read second sentence the words flesh fleshly or carnal lusts embrace the lower corrupt nature did anybody look at that because flesh in fleshly King James but I couldn't find carnal lust in the King James I think she's using a different Bible version because he's seen quotation marks so I'm pretty sure she's quoting from the Bible and if someone could see that I think if anybody took the effort to look it's not an issue here's the my understanding is she's quoting from Scripture when she does that the words flesh flesh near : lust embraced the lower corrupt nature the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God this last part of the sentence has thrown people so I want to just address this issue the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God so when she says the flesh is that the same flesh as the beginning of the sentence or is it a different flesh because she's saying this flesh flesh carnal lust equals the lower nature then she's got a semicolon then she says the flesh cannot do something is this flesh here the same flesh as all of these ones okay so some people saying yes and some people are saying no so what is this flesh then sister on the v-a cases it's not only been saying the body so flushing of the trouble is that okay I think is that okay he's I think it's in other ones as well but it's the new and they yes yeah I was pretty sure it was a revised version she's picking up and it may be all through it from proned revised version it's not starting issue yeah this is Pater isn't it and these are poor yeah it's not an issue I'm just making sure that if you wanted to look you won't find it in the King James okay so we've got fleshly she called elastic because lower nature semicolon the flesh cannot . then she says kill the flesh we're looking to go with naughty Luke this commentary seriously are we I'm not asking what this means because we know what that means I'm asking what this is because this isn't in quotation marks this is spirit prophecy now this is Bible this this and this is Bible she says these three things equals that they're all the same thing but then she says semicolon the flesh cannot do something so I'm asking is this flesh the body or is it the same flesh here okay so that's been my approach when we first tackle this in class then I'm just going with there must be somehow a relationship between yeah we're using the grammatical critical methodology now because we take wig we're getting fixate you on the grammar yeah so what you saying it is you say the same thing there you go you made it the body and two minutes two minutes ago you said it wasn't the body no I said that you just said that you just said the physical cannot act contrary to the will of God that's what you just said you say you said no I think did you say physical body did you say the physical cannot add kanji to the will of God yes okay so in this context what can't act contrary to the will of God so you make to this the body or not because it I thought you just develop the dogma dates the body he says the flesh is the body but the flesh on that side because it says that this do anything without it being told what to do I guess what what what I find interesting troubling worrying or whatever his people have got a reading what she says here and making some kind of application about what they think she's saying and trying to make it fit with their model what I'm suggesting is this maybe it's too strong a statement the people are bringing their preconceived ideas to the Bible or inspiration in this case and not letting inspiration change them and directing them about what it's trying to tell them I don't know what one of Rhuddlan Miller's rules is his bridge I think it's breaking it was posted at the Bible or inspiration do its work upon us and one of the things we know we all know about repeating in large about structures and things whywould of them why do all of that structure it this way what she trying to teach us yes this one here everyone's going to agree with you on that all of these emotions these passions etc but now we want to change this one and the reason we're changing that is because of the rest of the sentence so the rest of the sentence is making this change that definition as opposed to allowing just a sentence to read as written just grammatically the structure of it so I saw you I saw your hand we already discussed this so this is like my bad English class what is the semicolon useful it's to what okay so it's a run-on sentence and it doesn't even if you express it that way you use that phrase run-on sentence yeah or has another purpose no I mean just to talk the the proper way of grammatically you were doing what's the purpose of a comma it separates two thoughts but commas are also used to create lists in a sentence you're going to have a list yeah so you said John Mark Peter that would be a list of people so if you don't have just John Mark Peter if you have a little phrase not just a singular word so you can if you if you have a phrase then you don't use commas you use semicolons so semicolons have a purpose of breaking sentences up into lists but the other one they do is to do run-on sentences and the run-on sentence is two separate sentences that you want to join together so if you put if you had a statement here and the statement here and you put a full-stop two separate sentences can stand by themselves so why would you just stop the swap it from the cent a full stop to a semicolon what's the purpose of that because you want to tell the people these two sentences are not just two separate thoughts they're intimately connected one with another and you're directing them to that because if you just put a full-stop you might think they're two separate thoughts but the semicolon is don't your three's directing you specifically to say this is the same thing you can't you could put a comma in there if you want it to but it begins to become clumsy I know all about the clumsy here writing habits the commas do that I'm trying to say here that this and these are two separate sentences but ly by putting the semicolon he's telling us that this is a continuation of this thought same thought and if it's the same thought then this flesh has to be the same flesh in fact that's the premise of our argument the premise of our argument is that all of this is this yeah yeah I said body because that's what people say and I'm saying it's not the body if you made it the body you're going to have so many problems which is the things that we've already discussed about just in this class about the oil in the car cow's milk is a poison all of those things you have been introduced and you and you come up with really strange a really strange theology which Adventists have which the Jews had didn't they didn't the Jews have these strange theology yeah the the breezin white people have got some kind of disease so if you've got if you if you've got if you're diagnosed with diabetes first thing you're going to say to the person is what yeah or what sin did you do you must have been doing some sin I mean we depending on how we might let's say direct you them but would be sent in somewhere else they must have done something wrong I heard someone say this person can't have cancer you know they're not feeling well can't be cancer cause it hadn't been diagnosed yet because cancer is the curse and you only get the curse if you've done some kind of sin so getting a diagnosis of cancer is the direct curse of God that you are morally corrupted that you've been d-company this is people who believe this this was something on the message what is that the only way this is this is not so far away with our Advent is and this is this is amongst us people have these thoughts and ideas and I'm not being critical about the person who said that I'm just saying it's based upon wrong models and if you run down the road that you say this is the body you're going to cause yourself so many problems so the flesh of itself cannot add contra to the will of God so if this flesh is all of this the lower passions the powers everything cannot act contrary to God's will the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God yeah I didn't mean to correct and I'm just saying that I take that itself off because I don't show you if that's even doing anything he says the flesh cannot act contrary to the will of God so so if I took the itself out because people might say something I'm saying the flesh our lower corrupt nature cannot do anything against God's will it doesn't have the ability to sister shamila the same it would be a sin then break for help laws of help XI XI equals and both as the same okay so what's the point you make him bite what's the point you make him buy that but that's against what this is saying or in agreement with what it's saying what are you thinking are you agreeing that you saying that statement she says the health laws are like the Ten Commandments if you break them you're gonna sin the body is the physical because the body is not the lower corrupt nature she distinguishes that in this money yeah but you just said he defiles the body so I'm gonna take you back to mark 7 this stiff this stuff is ingrained in us so you're so I don't mind that you don't agree but what you've just said is that you don't agree with all of that stuff that we've just talked because you've got a spirit property quite tucked in the back of your mind that says you drink cow's milk you defiling the body and it's sin defiling Samak is sin brother Larry nineteen paragraph three disease never comes without a cause the way is first prepared and disease invited by disregarding the laws of health up there both touching on a correct principle but it's not addressing your point you your sin is it the melt going into your body your since choosing to drink the milk yes gods rebuild will you didn't I agree with the disobedience to the will of God so it's not the milk in him in and of itself it's the disobeying the laws of health that's what I was the point I was making it's just because you said defiling the body yeah I mean the disobedience is defiling us it's not the doesn't be far the body doubt disobedience doesn't default the body does it okay because it's not what Jesus says I'm not trying to I'm not trying to push you into a corner now I'm gonna try and force you into a corner because if you have a point because other people have the same issue over Jonathan so if you're in the army and your sergeant tells you to do 20 push-ups if you don't do that what are you doing you're disobeying but the 20 push-ups isn't of it in and of itself are not good or bad it's the command that the product that that I think is what the issue that we're having to deal with when it becomes sin because sin is rebellion is disobedience whether you need the press-ups or not isn't going to make any difference the issue is whether you're going to listen or not isn't it because drinking milk can't be sin okay it's committing adultery sin so there's some situation some context in which you can't commit adultery and it wouldn't be sin so is it some context that you can drink cow's milk under some situations your even maybe you know there are because we have counsel that says that so the issue of drinking milk becomes a contextual issue but all those moral Commandments you can't say it's okay to steal sometimes under taken certain situations this would mean what about the person who has to drink milk sitting I couldn't your model or according to my model it isn't okay my mod knees if you put cheap oil in your not your car's not going to last long but the best plan is the handbook says put the good quality oil in why would you not want to do that yeah so I'm saying you're a liar you have plenty of money but you want to use that money for other purposes you spend your money on that which is not bread so you've got plenty of money because you want to buy branded clothes so instead of buying branded clothes you should be buying proper food and cutting out the milk so the problem now comes to an issue of lying of why you using cheap quality food but if you tell me genuinely all I can afford is cow's milk cuz it's so cheap half the price of soya milk wherever you're drinking then I'm saying okay that's a legitimate reason but if the reality is that you're lying to me that you've got plenty of money you could afford to eat and drink and live properly it becomes a different argument now that's what I mean by contextually in the West you can't live like someone in the third-world country they have to operate on a different basis because they've got a genuine excuse because they can't afford to live the way we do otherwise clear on this issue she says if you've got nuts fruits and grains and vegetables particularly nuts and fruits in abundance she says you and he doesn't say use the words of Lao but I'll add that mean you not allowed to eat me or there's no necessity to it there's no excuse because these things replace that but if you don't have an abundance of nuts fruits grains and Veit if you don't have that option and all you've got is a cow in a field of grain that's how you live but once you pull yourself out of that situation then you're and then you're on you're on a better job that can buy better fuel but if you get that better job you today actually what I want to do is buy a bit of sofa or get some paint on my house now you're lying because we want to spend our money on things that we're not supposed to sister I think all people health deformers because they that's what their whole but and we know that what we are important but do we as Christians count you know when we're so apt to to say to somebody oh you've got cancer you've sinned do we take into consideration 6,000 years of sin what's in the air that we breathe now the food that we buy is so perverted and I mean do we or do we just stick to the letter of the law and and what and say when somebody gets sick that is their fault I think we miss apply and the senses Miller was but we miss apply the quotes that say the health laws are on the same level as the moral law that we should treat them the same and my understanding is it's the issue of rebellion that's been addressed here not an issue of the health itself you know drinking cow's milk in and of itself is poisonous that will produce cancer and all and all the implications of that I just want to pick up this one issue if we're talking about the quality of the moral and the health and we're saying there on an equal footing I say there needs to be an understanding of the relationship between these and we've just had a discussion on that but what I want us to think about is also the prophetic which is where we're supposed to focus on I think oh you know we're supposed to be experts on this what is the relationship between the prophetic and the moral and I'm just so I'm using it I'm using the health as a launching pad because I'm not only discuss the health and this I think that I've made the point I want to do about the health but if we're gonna make these on inequality then how do we factor in prophetic prophetic law if you like like this is the health laws there's prophetic laws and are these on the same footing as the moral because isn't that what we teach if we wonder if we want to use that phrase prophetic to make it William Miller's rules then yes or if it's just simple dates the conclusion of William Miller's rules I guess William is rules would be the methodology and and so the methodology of how you put a cookie together in and of itself isn't the law it's when you've put them all together if you come to the wrong conclusion that it's good or bad then then that would be what the law would beep so the prophetic he's lost themselves his rules bring it to a place that you say either the 2520 is correct or it's not and as that concept get elevated to the stature of the Ten Commandments so if you lie when you die if you don't believe the 2520 will you die Jonathan's brother Frenchie's thought before why did he doc follow all through that logic about here just like yes why do we have to sort of reject the truth you're going to die quite why have you got all those steps here why have you got those steps here those complicated steps people like that on the surface yeah but it's not it's not like there's no command now this is not number 11 this is number 5 or something I thought we taught that these are the 10 commandments these two charts now undo I'm know I'm not asking you how wisely I'm asking how you see it because I think this is what we teach but it's not what we really believe because doesn't they say thou shalt believe so why do you have to go like if you don't believe then you go to darkness and it that why is it all those steps when you didn't do the steps with the lying oh yeah I'd say yeah I know pushing you I might use me because other people are thinking things on the video the people really still don't believe that people because other people on the message watch these videos no actually they don't that we don't we don't process this in the same way as we process this and I'm just trying to challenge our thinking that why aren't we processing is why don't we just say it's the twenty five twenty everybody understands what lying is everybody understands with the twenty five twenty years it's just four numbers it's four numbers that someone came up with they put on the chart and they say believe it or don't believe it because you're not asking me can you define what lying is is it lying or is it not lying let's get into a complicated argument about that okay and the reason I'm bringing that point up is because when we get the health and we elevate it to the standards of the moral we misuse that one as well and we say now if you drink cow's milk you're defiling the body and you are lost because you commit sin and good on you if you get diabetes type one diabetes for drinking cow's milk and it destroys your pancreas and all of that stuff because you deserve it because it defiles your body that's how we approach that one in the wrong way as opposed to just saying if God says do it do it I mean go to the fourth commandment why is the numbers-wise us the seventh day so special compared to the first or the sixth what's so unique about that because they're all the same aren't they you just go through cycles as any couldn't be title debates he invent something that he wants to invent God and he just says that do it there's nothing inherently special about Saturday compared to Sunday only because God says he makes it special and meets the whole Bible that said he rested on the sixth day with this whole argument would be about Friday not Saturday so it's arbitrary in that sense but when we but we don't approach their health in the same way like just obey you know and don't argue my argument is what's the problem with adultery I can't even understand what the issue about adultery is the whole of like 99% of creation commits adultery and they've been functioning perfectly well in fact they get on better than we do with each other so why are we unique why are we not allowed to do that why can't we have multiple partners what's so special about us whatever the answer is we're just supposed to do it and it's the same with the health I think that it the reason why and then what's going to bring these two inequality is not to say that there's so much crime about doing things it's the fact that you're just supposed to obey and I'm saying it our message aren't we supposed to be doing that at this prophetic level you're just supposed to obey it's not an intellectual discussion about can you tell me what the longest and last prophecy is in the great controversy before I go out and battle with people so we don't do that on any of these moral issues I'm sure nobody here understands why you can't eat rabbits or camels or horses if you go into the chemical we don't know that when we just do it Bravo Larry it's true that if we lie we die we don't repent it is true at the 2520 in Matthew for horse that man should not live by bread alone but by every word of the season snow mountain point is we should be doing the same with hell yeah yeah my point is I'm not trying to have a health discussion here I'm trying to actually not promote health I'm trying to minimize their health message to say that Arlene they say it's not that we shouldn't follow the laws is to say that the purpose of the following of those laws is to make sure the car works properly to do the job that it was designed to do but in and of itself it's not the filing and unless you separate the body from this lower corrupt nature you're always going to fall into the pit that you're sinning by doing some activity or by eating something and then you look at other people in the same way and you lose the ability to understand what the sin problem is yeah it's back to the statement that you made sister Tamina sister Terry brother Tyler and they forget all of those people yeah this is not an exercise I know people merits of diminishing the role of the health message of the reformist it's not that it's to understand the in the threefold nature of man it's we need to separate the physical from the spiritual and I'm suggesting Ellen White's doing that and then what happens is people have quotes or theories or ideas that begin to challenge that and I'm saying I think it all fits I think that's the point but I wouldn't take the of itself out just to make the point that the flesh cannot act contrary to the will of God but that's like saying can your fingers that Conte to the will of God but if I say see ya so I wanted to distinguish this issue that the lower this flesh and I believe it's the local crap nature cannot act cons you to the will of God in needs assistance and so it is with our hands our body the body has very similar characteristics that's why people are putting the body into this because they can see you know the body in and of itself because we've already discussed it but it's not that yes brother okay so all I want to pick in closing these so we just summarize we've got the threefold nature of man you can have corrupt thoughts she says corrupt thoughts it's not the body it's the lower passions and powers and we haven't discussed this Brad noted here it's dealing with the lower nature which is corrupt we've hopefully broken this sentence up to understand that this semicolon is showing us that this flesh is the same flesh as this one and this flesh is the lower nature and it's not the body so this flesh here is not the body and it says the lower corrupt nature cannot of itself go contrary to the will of God and most of us many of us won over where the number is we in our daily lives are acting contrary to the will of God and who are we blaming for that I'm saying what we're blaming is this phrase here but we call it sinful nature and I want us to pick up this idea of nature take out the word full we sin because it's our nature that's the theology that we end up going down if we're not careful this is wrong we don't sin because of nature and the reason we know we don't is because the corrupt nature cannot act contrary to the will of God it just cannot do it let's pray Heavenly Father we ask and pray that you would be with us and guide us Lord it's my hope and prayer that each of us throughout through this day would reexamine the conversation that we've had this morning relook at these passages to ensure that the truths that we're developing are in agreement and in accordance with your will we hope and pray Lord that the truths that being discussed are leading your people in the right direction when it comes to the issue of our nature how we're supposed to deal with this nature and and the rights and wrongs of health reform please be with us and please guide us through this day we ask and pray in the name of Jesus I mean