(10-11-18) Morning - The Passing of the Time - (H3e6GPmBHnE)

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Publish Date: 10/11/2018
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Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (10-11-18) Morning - The Passing of the Time-H3e6GPmBHnE
YouTube ID: H3e6GPmBHnE

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I mean hopefully you've all got your notes I think there's some spare copies by the door its first selected messages page 206 I'd only had a chance to read through this short article after class yesterday just sort of add one point the title here is firm foundation of our faith but if you took the time to actually go back to the source of this document I'm not referring to the special testimony Series B that it's the original source from but even the second selected messages passage this is only a subsection of the article itself it begins back six pages earlier and how you count in page 201 it's chapter 25 is called the foundation of our faith slightly different to this section and this is quite a few paragraphs into this article we commented yesterday this was 1904 so I just want to add that if you're going to do this study properly we would we should really have gone back to the beginning of the this article this testimony I guess I don't know how you described it to actually see what Ellen White is talking about who she's talking into and what the point of this Testament is all about if you were to do that it would shed light on the whole point of what's going on but we're not doing that we could spend a long time going through this and gleaning a lot of light okay so we read the first paragraph yesterday and we're kind of about a third of the way into this paragraph we got to the place after the compilers have added their short comment which is in upper case it says her medicine and others who were key noble and true were among the who after the passing of the time in 1844 searched for the truth as for hidden treasure so it's that sentence and the one at the very beginning of the article many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid I don't know if anybody did think to go to the beginning of this article he didn't it's fine but just based upon that first sentence what do you think the point of this article is about so don't go looking now this is the Kathi so they forgotten the old ways with the grain so just from the first sentence many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our fate had been laid so if your speaker on Sabbath it's sort of open their sermon with that kind of a phrase why would you think that they would open up in that way maybe you're addressing concerns that people want to change doctrines or truths the Cathy said that they'd forgotten sorry and you're said it's a lot stronger than just forgetting they've actually either moved away from those foundations drifted away and this these words they're actually given in in a stronger fashion this there's a concern that people have lost their direction it yeah really hate her a lot of people may not even know how the family and therefore are being susceptible to changes so if you were to go back and see the widest article was written then find that there is an attack upon the foundations and she's trying to address this subject so you could pick that up just from the first sentence we didn't do that yesterday we've seen that this was written in 1904 we didn't get to this part but in this article she talks about 50 years so the history that's been portrayed here in the first half of the paragraph in fact most of the power of most of this section is has occurred 50 years before so I asked yesterday where would we be in time so we concede that we're in the post 1844 period this is October and if we went back 50 years from 1904 it will take you to 1854 so this history must it can't go past 1854 that that's what I'm saying as soon as you start thinking in those terms you end up gravitating to the 1850 chart and I think most of us are aware that between 1844 and 1850 a work was done in the church to substantiate the truths that were understood developed in the middle right history so just from those Clues you can get a really good idea about what she's talking about and the history that that we have to deal with any questions on that my question is there's I'm not sure which people um she's referring to because if I look at the oven movement I see that and obviously the 1843 chart as we know once they passed that date with the first disappointment was not being utilized and then it was after October of 1844 that you only had a small group of people that were studying and then by 1850 when I produced the second chart what the second chart I think may have been trying to be used largely to bring the people back who who they loved they left behind that it didn't you know go all the way through so what was your question sorry my question is is when we look at the people being already displaying some lay of the scene characteristics by the late 1850s it I find it hard to believe that 1850 chart was you know there's only seven years after short years after the 1850 chart that's already gone label to see you okay but she's not addressing that issue here is she not particularly okay so that is a valid question pretty sir it's not germane to this issue because she's dealing with a controversy in 1904 okay that's that's attacking the work that was done between 1844 and 1850 worked only relevant from the standpoint that that obviously there's there were people who are already rejecting the stuff that was on the 1850 chart possibly and that's why they're becoming Laodicean I don't speak two years later okay the reason why I'm making this point is it without going back to the begin of the article would be second guessing but if you were to do that you'll see that the whole subject matter that's been addressed here does anybody know this is the Kellogg issue did this this is what's being addressed here you if you went back in you were to read from the beginning you'd say that's what the issue that she's really dealing with in this 1904 me they're rather issues connected with that when we finished yesterday oh so hopefully we all agree that the foundation is here 44 I've put 54 here but I'm going to change that to 50 so 1844 to 1854 someone sister Sue Ellen did note that if you went to 1854 you do actually have a 10-year period here from 44 to 54 which I thought was actually really interesting and because we marked these 10 years in their own history brother Daniel know they're all cool although I do do a cool just don't forget it so got the foundation and remember okay so that's that's okay then we picked up it says after the passing of time so I asked what that time is and this here is saying prophetic periods ended and the correct and the question I asked was is she talking about prophetic periods or a prophetic period singular in this context and we didn't quite finish that discussion so I think brother Clayton was they need to walk the singular period where I read this isolated in this one sentence yeah I just seemed that way to me but I'm not a grammar expert sister Brittany you're a grammar expert I don't know you can pick that up from the grammar here if it's period to period you can't it seems I could go either way you should you should tell us you're British you usually know the English better knows people like me there now I can't spell don't care for the ground my business so where do you where do you find the word perience here in this one third time tell you know with it you don't it said after the passing of the time in 1844 so when it said the time what time is it referring to so we picked up this idea that was spoken about no more time time has ended time shall be no longer and we came to the conclusion that the time that's been referred to is this time here so we know it's prophetic time it's gonna end in October 1844 it says the time has passed I'm understanding that past to mean ended the ending of time the passing of time in 1844 so here that there's we get decided that there's no more time which means the prophetic periods or period has ended brother Larry did you have a thought I think it's singular because the argument was over the disappointment well that's what they did in regards to the passing of time the 1844 got you the sanctuary a little bit more so a little visit I read on this article says the passing of the time we know that there's two prophetic periods that ended there one has to do with the 2520 and one has to do with the 2300 days and in context I think it's referring to the 2300 and period just on a little bit so we'll go with those two prophetic periods 25 20 2300 days what was the 25 20 teaching what would it be showing us or indicating to us the 25 20 you said 25 24 25 23 I'm at the 25 20 what would that be no let me go with the 2300 days maybe that sneezy was to begin with what were the 2300 days show us when you get to October 1844 how would you know that the 2300 days had been fulfilled what would be the mark up but the dates come what's the marker for it the veins no we've got to think about contextually what the Millerites are blinking Second Coming everybody okay with that so just gonna do that bring it up here cuz it's gonna get low so we're in 1844 this is October and the 2300 days they knew this would have been fulfilled that they knew the time would have passed because they would have seen Christ coming in the clouds of heaven this would be the second Advent so the question is has the time passed or not how would you know the time has passed sister Tamina how'd you know the times past but how do you know how do you know it's past that doesn't angel sister an angel told them brother Larry because crows didn't come so quite a bit cub start to answer that I think how you wouldn't know it past unless you know to start so you'd have to go back to the start to know that it passed and in my opinion okay so we go to 457 BC you get to the day the tapes of October 3 the tenth month of 1844 and nothing happens so what are you going to think oh they're they're wrong so they have to go back and look for the intent of those okay so the natural assumption is because you can't argue against the event can you the event is firm because everybody knows what the sanctuary is yeah and the sanctuary is war so this is the earth and which Bible passage do we insist upon where are we where the tenth day of the seventh month this it's the sanctuary and we'll just go with that which where are we we'll fight all those okay it's not a drop in potential you're asking what the Millerites would be thinking yeah I'm not I'm not worried about what we think because our thinking can't be in a vacuum it has to be based upon how they think do you have sister Alyssa okay so in the video six days ever tournament so eat yeah sister Kathy now we're going to Center the sentiment and sanctuary why big party huh yes we'll do that in a second I'll go over there in a second I'm not that's why I didn't repeat what she said okay mate sorry this is Daniel 8:14 sorry I didn't mean that to seem complicated it's just Daniel 8:14 this is the cleansing of the sanctuary this is the framework of the Miller right movement without Daniel 8:14 nothing happens because look it's the 2300 days so you know it's Daniel 8:14 yeah that's the connection okay so now they know well they believe that the earth is the sanctuary and the passage tells you what after 2300 years what's going to happen it's gonna be cleansed nasty stir Cathy where we going to go which Peter second Peter we're going to go to second Peter 3:7 video the second Peter 3:7 it's second 53:7 is going to give you a chance to read it you tell me when you find it sister Chrystie circum Peter 3:7 when you found it tell me when you've read it yep you ready yes okay I want to paraphrase don't read the verse to me tell me what why we've got two three seven the time of the end right now we're out of time this is this is the time of judgment and what's gonna happen the ungodly men are going to be judged in 3:7 second Peter second Peter 3 7 3 7 so you're in the right version got ungodly men there you picking up all them all the right things but what's the main thing that's going to happen with respect to the cleansing of the sanctuary but that's what they're talking about he's talking about a day a day yep a point in time and what's gonna happen on that day no judgment and what this adjustment look like fire at sea on fire and what will that fire you do because the earth is the sanctuary what will that fire do cleanse it so this is Miller right thinking the earth is the sanctuary the way the earth is going to be cleans these cleanses by fire we have this is not the only Bible verse that that does that but it's a nice one easy one to see and it's it's it talks about the judgment it talks about the day of judgment those are godly men are going to be destroyed so you can see they've got a nice tidy message it's logical consistent so you get to October 1844 and nothing's happened so then you have to go back and say the calculation must be wrong and as they do this I've seen this history they realize that the calculation isn't wrong but it's the event that's wrong and this is so difficult for them to grapple with they actually need some help they need some divine help and what's the divine help that they're going to be given and they're not Ellen White Hiram Edson Hiram Edson is a key player in the post 1844 movement because he's the one that's going to essentially give him the sanctuary message we know that they're going to study out we know that Ellen White's going to aid them but without hiring medicines work they were just stuck with their Bibles and they wouldn't know where to go really he gives them the impetus to do that so Hiram Edson is going to be used here in 1844 where else is Hiram Edson going to be used doesn't you do ii to see you Lizzie he does he does yeah brother Graham what year is that that he would be brings that fall yes by the Gregory you know sorry ones are question 25 20 your our medicine 48 sister Lisa you don't looking at you oh yeah it's now I'm not asking it's the great news for the Daniel that let's hit it 18:54 56 1856 he begins a series of articles in 1856 and what's the problem the problem is James White has already become later seen and he's not going to give him the support and the assistance and the help the higher medicine needs to get this message into the public domain so it just dies a death and this is this this begins the work of attrition against the 2520 now we can only do this put in so what the pieces of the jigsaw together this is not spirit prophecy quotes I'm saying the 2520 would have been the key as it is today that would have been used to unlock time if they had followed through with that so when they become they to see and I'm arguing in 1850 it's not the only person but James Y is going to be instrumental and I'm not even talking about 63 when you go that far back just in 56 so essentially retard the work the Hiram Edson is going to be doing her medicine is the key person he's here in October it's gonna give him a sanctuary message and he's going to straighten them out on the twenty five twenty sister tamina we calculate and they see the calculations were correct just they had the event wrong and then two years later I am absent Etsy comes up and he says oh the calculation is wrong you've got it it's not that straightforward or it did everybody hear what you said understood it's not that straightforward an argument what's hiring medicines what's hire medicines twenty five twenty if I can call it that one if I can say it that way northern Israel so you're gonna say 1798 that's more than that well it's time 723 723 and the midpoint is by the way 535 723 538 sent you like every familiar with that this is Edson's 25 20 so let's go with Miller's 25 24 the Larry what if Smith is 20 my 2007 okay okay brother Daniel be comparing just saying there is not a Midway in the chain okay that isn't actually even Midway of anything so that's not that's not part of his message none that I wanted to say hello okay I'm saying it's not Midway s 538 is the Midway from the Lord for it the Norden try okay but I'm not what martinis he's five away part of he's 25 20 may see that's what I'm asking I thought that's what you were telling brother Lamech none of the time privacy but above the history me I don't know yeah it's there in that history but I don't know no but you've got hundreds of dates that go in that world not hundreds but lots of data goes I'm asking is that is that this one here this is a construction of his twenty five twenty of Edison's 5:38 agree with that it's five away part of the construction of that twenty five twenty that out and you hate the red painting yeah I could tell just because you put it below instead of above the Philly hey get more about Millis twenty five twenty as far as dates are concerned I I don't think there's there's this thing yourself there's no okay so it's just like that that's it yeah yeah I mean yeah there's no mean my dear is a mean way but it doesn't have prophetic significance it doesn't fall out okay what I want to suggest is that millets 2520 doesn't look that blank he has more information he has the 538 in his 25 25 78 there would have to it we'd have to adjust that to 1843 if we were going to do it so we'll make that 1843 then what does the other he has a 1798 here as well so he's gonna have 1260 years here and he's gonna have how many years here 45 years and here sister Brittany actually I'm not interested if we can do the matter this is 1215 so he has to 12 60s Miller has everything that her medicine has sometimes we don't we don't appreciate that and higher a medicine you know took about 20/20 vision Hiram Edson can do this Miller can Miller could never have developed this and the reason why he couldn't develop it is be for a couple of reasons one of them he knows that it's the southern tribes that are God's people all the way through history I mean that's patently obvious because the here in the glorious land he doesn't understand that phraseology but he can trace the history and the second thing that he has a problem with the Edison doesn't because Edison he's talking about something that's only happened is that Miller has to predict doesn't he he to predict into the future because here's Miller in 1798 and he's predicting what's about to happen the earth he's about to be destroyed let me get let me just say this I'm gonna use this point but it's in a present day context we've all seen the presentations that sister Tess has done and some of us are really firm on that saying yet this is the midnight cry message others are a bit more cautious and hesitant people say maybe it is maybe it isn't and the people who were unsure who say maybe there are two at least two reasons I'll give two reasons why they would say that one of them is that they say actually I don't even understand what she's talking about too complicated maybe is maybe isn't we'll see but there's another group who say I don't think it's correct because they say not enough events have happened as of today to fulfill the characteristics of the midnight cry which I'm going to switch to another phraseology which I don't like of PBM so they're saying okay we're going to call this PBM but my understanding is PBM has four characteristics and she's only picked up two there are two more to fulfill therefore this can't be correct so if we understand that logic okay so come back to the middle write history we're in 1798 and Miller's got the same problem heat there's prophecies there's history that needs to be fulfilled which haven't happened yet and if I can just say in a conceptual way the big problem that he has his revelation 17 revelation 17 the Kings coming together the final work none of that has really materialized in 1798 so he knows that this 1215 years is paganism and he knows that this is pay liz 'm but he also knows that revelation 15 hasn't finished that the kings of the earth haven't really even begun to do their work America we just risen up I'm not sure how much even understands about America's role but he has to tie in certain other Bible passages prophecies that haven't been fulfilled so he has a very sophisticated logic about how he's going to do that so he's gets this two to twelve six he's the same ones that Edson's picking up but he has to do it in this sort of funny way and sometimes we don't we don't realize that we just think oh yeah it's just 2:25 20s then we'll shift them over cascade them with different start dates then we do a nice chiasm we don't actually realize that Miller Miller had sorted all of this out he knew about 723 he didn't escape his attention he was well aware of that day but his argument is well I'm not interested in these people because they're already in Babylon I'm interested in God's people and just that argument should help direct us to this question because people are asking where's the world wise what way we're not calling this the world and I'm saying because reform lines are about God's people not about the world okay so that was just know I only spoke about that because I want him to ask to see that edson is the key person in this history he comes in 44 and he's gonna come in 56 and you can just see a progression of history so that was just um I don't know a refresher it's like distraction useful information brother Theodore well it does relate to the point dealing with what period is being talked about as far as the time I think that's why you brought it up right Dean's going back yeah yeah that's what we're going to deal with that in a minute yeah so I'm gonna take this out coming back to here so when they say which he says the passing of time if we were to think about the 2300 days we would have had direct evidence that the 2300 days is going to happen now when you come to the twenty five twenty so we'll put the twenty five twenty here what do the Millerites understand that the twenty twenty five twenty is conceptually just simply what is the twenty five twenty sister Sue Ellen what is the twenty five twenty from Miller right then God's people will into captivity when God's people go into captivity so by the Bob yes what's the 25 24 the middle-right cat identity I see it as the second witness because there's two different type roxies that are ending in the same test at the same time okay so that's how we kind of do it now second witness I don't think they think about it in terms like that although it obviously is a second witness this concept and lot I'm not talking about the prophecy itself but the concept of the 2520 is going to be found in the same place as the concept of the 2300 days which is where where'd you where'd you find the twin three hundred days that's right Daniel 8:14 so you go to Daniel 8:14 you'll see the concept of the twenty five twenty brought up there so it is captivity but it's a little bit more specific brand Larry okay so this gathering and scattering I'm not sure if the Millerites understand it that way actually punishment punishment clean a bit more what I'm looking for okay how long shall be the vision concerning what not the host the day we say the house you know it's right the daily and you're a minister so no solution so these okay so that's always the pick up its to desolating powered all of these are correct but it's this one although when I say they're all create I don't think they have a concept of a gathering twenty five twenty just scattering because if you think about two desolating powers you know there's no gathering we think about the scattering and the gathering in the slightly sophisticated way that the Miller writes I don't think they're really considered so you've got term to desolating powers that this there that are being scattered and this is paganism papal ISM I drew it on the board before so two twelve six is because think about it that way through okay with that so here you are you've got this twenty five twenty you've come to 1844 what you expect him to see to say yep the time has passed because this work the twenty hundred azz what about the twenty five twenty what you expecting to see so that you know come October 22nd 1844 at the time has passed with spec to the 2520 if these are the concepts or the idea you can see that in the twenty five twenty the matter seems to know and that's okay let me just remind you I think you heard what brother Theodore just a papal is immense where brother Daniel 1798 they really know that 538 it seems that Daniel Daniel 813 is talking about you the other twenty five training who talks about to dis elating powers and ends in 1788 have Charles six for each one by way just to correct myself when I say Daniel 8:14 and I started quoting it I was quoting Daniel eight thirteen don't we all knew that it wasn't for fourteen is the answer so yeah I'm not trying to I'm not trying to tease out the twenty five twenty in in in Daniel 8 13 it's it's that I didn't want to go in that direction or what I want you to early went there that you can see the two desolating powers in the same Bible passage as the 2300 days so what I'm asking is what are you expecting to see to say yep let's tick that box sister Brittany before you raise it with okay so I'm gonna put paganism here actually don't know why you did that but I saw you at it oh you don't know why because I've got 45 years and if I went to 677 if you did the maths here you'd see it's twelve hundred and fifteen so I didn't do this III cut I just rushed I get that and bring it here twelve hundred and fifteen plus 45 is 1260 years of paganism William Miller no it's two twelve sixties he nodulation he understands that he has to be he has to split it why where do you mean what does it look like what's the significance that's why that's what I'm asking your Miller right you can hate Liz that is easy the this paganism is easy you know this is Babylon medo-persia Greece pagan road that's all straight forward what would you expect paganism to look like here the modern version of paganism by the way this is that this is the problem that we're facing yeah you know we don't call it paganism what do we call it spiritualist the United Nations which is the dragon so we complete the dragon power or the United Nations and what does it look like I don't think we actually really have a good clue a good idea today of what it what we expect it to look like we have discussed this in class and one of the things that we did do and if you remember yesterday when we did one two three and then we had that crown remember that and this is the ruling supremely and this is 1260 so if we do one two three and then it is two 1260 this would be 538 yeah so we could bring that into another history so I'm going to put 538 here where do we have a separate second application for that the one two three and then the 1260 okay so what would that invent be so this would be Sunday law and what verse is everybody agree with brother Daniel can everybody see that yeah there's everybody green it's verse 41 yes I've asked you this everybody agree with brother Daniel okay maybe maybe cover to stinging and some we need cover it that's why I'm asking and they take that and bring up here one two three who's number one rather Gregory Russia okay so I'll get the king of the south south yep glory slam glorious slide Egypt Egypt and brother Daniel says this is the Sunday go Robert Daniel says this is verse 41 which is verse furniture you see the problem okay so we do know because we only covered this yeah it all looks really nice when we can I say three territories the rule I vandals Ostrogoth and Syria the glorious land Egypt triple application comes to our history we're going to take down King of the South the glorious land in Egypt it all works nicely until you say once you get the verse 42 where are you and if you're not careful you'll get tripped up because you get into you get into you I don't think you really summit we haven't realized that we boxed ourselves into a corner when we do that because verse 32 in the Bible is after verse 41 and the numbers don't work and you end up getting into problems especially when you have to do what the Miller writes did well did I say the middle rights had to do here by the way what Bible passage here what Bible passage do they need to deal with remember what I said paganism with respect to paganism they have to tidy up the last remnants of paganism which was where revelation 17 they've got revelation 17 which is causing them problems and so do we we have problems in revelation 17 because revelation 17 says at the very end the woman is going to rule with whom with the ten Kings he's going to rule for how long one hour and where do we say that one hour is one hour is the Sunday law period or after the Sunday law agree with that so this is the one hour so if I were to ask you I've got one hour here brother Clayton give me the start and end that end points of that one hour if you agree then it is the Sun thing or history then if you agree with that the Kings rule with the woman for one hour so I'm going to call this the Sunday law period where would you begin that and end it I'm not sure that's right glorious Lane did you speak to my box oh you see in the framework of this so it would be Sunday law at the beginning and when they wise up to what the papacy is all about and it burned with fire into flesh you just tell me what that one is I just don't remember off the top my head where I walk the way mark is it actually happens is it close of probation or bit before everybody greets and they go and booty got question on Sunday look really pretty okay be that no yes you thinking yeah I'm thinking Larry yeah sister Alyssa this one great how's your probation so they're gonna rule who are those ten kings okay United Nations the dragon how many of them are they ten of them this is the taking this is Egypt isn't it yeah so you can see one two three then they rule for an hour but whips but brother Dan you said hold on that Sunday law there what is that Sunday law its verse forty-one isn't it I make up come back I'll tell you my thoughts in a minute thing is as soon as the ten King started rule they give their Kingdom to earth to the woman means right when they start ruling the woman is already ruling them so she already has conquered them from the start yeah that's good I'm happy with that you just thought we have to do the verses because is that verse 41 or not it is however when we place the ruling of Egypt at the Sunday lot then we can place also verse note 42 there because she basically conquers the glorious land and then briefly thereafter all to either so sister to meanest simple answer was mercifully one verse only to happen at the same time yeah so is that verse 41 before Sunday Lord what's that are you sure yeah so now you put verse 41 he's no longer the Sunday law it's some pre Sunday little thing that's just like a load of flowery words for Gracie oh it all come out fine brother Philip maybe the women there is another son Lila maybe it's the closer probation ok so let's just let's let's move away clocks ok I'm doing this is for us to see the Millerites problem revelation 17 the same problem that we have we don't understand what paganism looks like I'll tell you what my thoughts are really briefly that the 10 Kings are you fat straight out of revelation 17 and I'll use another one dragon which is not revelation 17 you could go to Revelation 16 for this revelation 13 13 and 16 the good place to go through the dragon so I'm saying all of this is the United States not our classic conception of the UN so I'm not gonna explain that and just I'm just suggesting it yeah I mean we know that straight out these speakers are dragon but but I'm saying the explanation of all of this complexity is to see that it's the United States there is the ten Kings that is this dragon which and it's not that straightforward so the only reason I mentioned that is you come to 1844 1798 xx what are you expecting the dragon or paganism to even look like to know that when you get here you say yes that was it I mean what have they done in October they you know you know bomber country take over there's going to be some major battle what is the Millerites thinking and if you go back I don't think they really have this clarity on this it all seems a bit nebulous and so what they're going to do I can't remember who said that is they're gonna I think his brother Bob they're going to use it as a second witness if you like and when you use things as a second witnesses you've got to be careful how you do that because if I can do if I can do this you saw I had 1844 it shouldn't be 1844 it has to be 1843 and what they're gonna do is they're going to have three prophecies that bring you to 1843 508 457 and then 677 these are BC this is this is AD and all going to bring you to here this is the 1335 the 2300 days and the 2520 now you'd think like these are all second testimonies but when you win you're going to bring second testimonies into a story they're not much worth as a testimony unless they actually do what unless they testify and I'm gonna argue without going into the into 3035 1 that this the 25 20 it doesn't really testify that well for them it's kind of just like an appendage like your appendix eats there but what's it for we're not really sure what it's for so this is why I Ellen why it's going to say things like the 2300 days was the central pillar or the foundation of when she says our fate is here she means a millerite movement it's all about the 2300 days brother Theodore well the Miller writes when they looked at these if you read everything they say about the 2520 they just have it the other prophecies are contained within it but they really don't have any specific thing about the 2520 itself and that's why the statement in great controversy 351 when it says the last and longest prophetic period was about to expire that's referring to the 25 20 and the judgment was at hand as the 2300 and God's everlasting kingdom being ushered in is the 1335 because that's the way the Millerites would have understood that statement they would have seen it as three different periods all culminating at the same event to me would you mind summarizing the point you tried to give in the last three minutes I heard you but I couldn't really y'all have a good day yeah that's right okay I'm just on his fielding questions when I said this no this is this is Sunday look this is the that explained all of this how connection is there whatever you wanted for you to it okay right there it's out there at the same time yeah but how can does that explain there okay so that's I think want to go there just like is what I'm saying daddy was a mention that is the Miller rights are having problems with revelation 17 and so away we're having problems with it because of our linear way of doing things the way we conceptualize things we just say one two three King of the South glorious land Egypt it's all fine this is kind of legacy arguments that we have so now you're all quite savvy about this because if I done this maybe a year or two years ago eighteen months I would have trapped you and you would have been forced to do this no I'll do it on this bit here you would mean if I did that and I said can be reversed verse 41 go you'd book verse fully run here and you'd put verse 42 here see then so many times but now you're not going to get tripped up about that anymore so don't ask that question because we know that just doesn't work because that's how we would normally do it we'd say yet verse four do you want to sell a lot therefore verse 42 it must be the other one because there's not many way marks in between but we know that to be wrong now so what we doing is we're grappling with this concept of putting 41 and 42 in that way which we know we can't do any longer but in our minds we still haven't tidied up that we still do one two three and the Sunday law is actually number two it's the second step not the third step so I'm not trying to I don't have field questions about explaining that that wasn't the purpose of why I brought that up the purpose of why I brought that up was to show us the difficulties that we face and it's this one hour the kings which I'm going to just say is revelation 17 revelation 17 is causing us problems because if we didn't have revelation 17 we just fall back to Revelation 13 and Revelation 13 is just like a nebulous concept it doesn't give you the details that you need it's the details that cause us problems so we're going to try and address that because I'm not trying to talk that out so so basically you would say it's 1 and then 2 and 3 in the same time as to see that there's a problem so I'm gonna go back to the Miller right history this the 2520 that's going to bring you to the same place please remember I'm gonna say October 1844 okay but remember it's 1843 we've got to think about this their mind the twenty five twenty is just these paganism and it really just is an appendage and when you think about its usage in that fashion and you're going to use this as a second witness it therefore force foul of that definition because the second witness would actually witness to this event and the twenty five twenty doesn't witness to that event all you have really is a mathematical calculation and the mathematical calculation is not the end it's the means to an end you know if I say nineteen eighty nine and I'm gonna do two way marks 1989 what's this way mark sister Elissa 1989 so this is 1863 and this is one to six I'm not really worried or interested in one to six in the time period I'm not interested in bringing it brings you to 1989 what I'm interested in is when it brings you somewhere what is the event yeah so we have two do that with that 25 20 you have to know what it brings you to for it to be a witness so I'm saying this is a witness here the 1989 is the time at the end and so if you're going to do that you have to be able to explain all of this information not just do number crunching this is a problem that we have in our movement at the moment it's the issue because people have dates 2019 2020 2021 and if you ask them what is 2020 mean most people say I'm not actually sure I can do the the number crunching but as to what it is I'm not sure and this is the problem that the Millerites have with this 2520 is it you can do that you can do the number work but how do you know what's happening so what I want to do is summarize all of that all of those thoughts when we come back here and she says the time had passed how would you know for time had passed you certainly know the 2300 days because the earth had been cleansed with fire people would have been killed but the 2520 they're not making an unequivocal statement about what's going to happen at the end of that it's just some generic thought now I've done it this way you see I saw how I did it that way but Alan White will describe it in another way and she'll call it singular the prophecy and the mellah rights were quite tricky about this they did some manipulation of scripture to get to get this all to work but all I want to say is this which is what bro Theodora has just mentioned is that this here if this was the 2520 distel prophecies just become components of that so we do 677 457 and 508 bringing you to 1843 44 and the prophecy would be this big one and these are just components of one prophecy she might call it links in a chain the commencement would be this one and then these are just subsets of that so you can conceive it either way I want to make the argument that the 2520 which is the second witness if you like using this kind of imagery isn't really doing a good job and the reason it's not doing a good job because they're not actually saying we predict in October 1844 this events going to happen it just doesn't happen that way so I'm arguing that the time that she's referring to here is the 2300 days because he's all connected with the judgment and you know for sure whether the time has passed or whether it hasn't passed and the arguments that are going to happen in this history about time setting and not about the 2520 then they're not about 25 they're not saying you know that capital should have been bombed by now we're still waiting so let's adjust everything and that's what hire a medicines gonna do that's why how a medicine says do you know William Miller's 2520 is wrong anyway it's not even a second witness it because he knew it didn't even serve the purpose that it was designed or the Millerites wanted to do because he never was the second witness he says we got that all wrong in fact what the 2520 was it was showing you I have to come back here it's showing you this it was showing us the beginning of our faith not this way mark his argument is saying we've missed use the 2520 now again I'm not trying to argue who's right and who's wrong I'm just trying to show you that the reasoning behind their thinking and his argument even though he doesn't say it this way I'm saying conceptually he says the twenty five twenty there was no event we never had an event I hire medicine have got an event that everyone agrees on 1798 it's an external event you're going to history to twenty five twenty was such a big deal you should be able to find something and so that's why he that's what he's doing here Miller writes is sorry Miller's twenty five twenty is falling on his face it was never an event that they could prophesy or predict about does that make sense so I spent a long time we learned hopefully it's a lot of things on the journey but I wanted us to see how if you would some obviously pre knowledge and tie things together they I think you can show that the passing of the time is brother Larry said was the 2300 days it's not older prophetic periods that are joined together even though that I'm not arguing that they have prophetic period any questions on that Brittany the prophecy and when it's relating like a period she's talking about the twenty five twenty in this passage I need some context don't you get you know to go to a particular passage but I'm not sure I thought your question I'm suggesting yeah which passages or your honor I don't know what that one is I have to find it yet that was acting really that mechanism give me a concept it's not you think that I'm not hit defend right Peter so would you say that higher medicines understanding of the twenty five twenty is actually the primary application of the twenty five twenty that should have been done especially based upon the prophecies of Daniel and that the one that Miller chose is sort of a secondary twenty five twenty that's the result of other prophecies I'd be reticent to say that because it sounds like I'm I'd be trashing Miller and Miller should be the one that's uplifted and and the other things if you don't if you if we had done that the message would have been weakened and hindered if they had approached it that way because they would never have been able to create this chart if they had done that and this cart this chart was created using Habakkuk to ezq twelve and if we if they had used her medicines logic the chart would not have worked that's the problem if you if we were to go to her backer that don't turn their chapter one and chapter 2 do we all know how they're going to use that passage it says write the vision and make it plain upon tables yeah so I'm taking up that the focus of that of that passage chapter one and chapter two is the end whatever that end is it's the end and that's what this chart is doing it's fulfilling its role it's talking about the end and the end is not 1798 the end is here at the bottom of the chart they do it in various ways they've got this timeline that goes down they've got this central column it starts that beginning goes at the end their focus is here which is a fulfillment of Habakkuk chapter 2 so if they had used higher medicines logic and gone gone with that one they would have shot themselves in the foot it would it would have been a severe blow to their message in it I don't think we realize you know she says here many people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid if we were just to apply that now just to us I think we in this movement do not stand back in awe of half of the work that the Lord has done in and through us you know with the various men and women who have developed these truths and brought them together and where we stand because if you think about the complexity just of this twenty five twenty subject how you dovetail higher medicine and Millers work together and get them to function in in a harmonious way is nothing short of a miracle I think you know just and that's not even talking about the providential leading to actually find these passages and the right people connected together and it all gets brought together into this central clearinghouse the we call FFA it's um it's not just that that you know of itself is a miracle but then to actually sort it silks or all the details out and get them to work in a coherent fashion I think we don't realize how firmly the foundation of our faith of this movement has been laid and if we you know I don't think we've spent enough time just standing in or of of this great work that's been done okay so I want to summarize we're in 1904 the church is in a crisis she's going to take us back to the history post 1844 and she says if you knew how firm this work had been our message had been laid you wouldn't be doing this today if we were to make an application I'm saying today in the crisis that we're having if we knew how firmly the foundations of our face of this movement had been laid we wouldn't be in this mess today people wouldn't be pulling it I'll let you sort I'll let you give application in a second so I've got that it's the passing of time 1844 time took us to this day there's no more time this is the foundation of their faith we're marking the 1850 chart but if we went to 1904 go back 50 years it's 1854 and there's a 10 year that's been marked there I like that the question is when it says the passing of time what time is that I'm saying that time is the 2300 day prophecy that she's referring to not the twenty five twenty so that's the summary of of where we've got to brother Daniel but have a problem there because you're saying that of weird seeing that the foundation is laid after the close of probation 1844 and now you're seeing our company and has been laid and we didn't cross the close of probation yet why do you think about that it's not that the application yeah okay thank you okay so if you just hold onto your objection we're gonna shoot down your application in the minute because your application is going to be based upon the thing that you just said a minute ago cuz I'm gonna say and how you going to apply that after close of probation you go ahead so the lies is the beginning of Asia and mother Israel you have first disappointment and then God God answers and correlates with his fever have the red see you have a disappointment that sister white parallels for 1844 and after that in ancient Israel Moses is in mountain Sinai and he receives the two tables and that's Pentecost and in 1844 after its appointment you have 1850 a number 50 is Pentecost and they receive the two tables there so you have God the God entering in covenant with both of them after the close of probation after that's a point to make let's say that leads and sister I'd says that sometimes it's from 1840 to 850 and that's also number 10 and from 1840 to 1844 have four years and from 1844 to 1850 you have see years 14:6 and that's 46 today and this is your covenant in sport in one side and seeking the other the two tables and tables and what more oh yeah so what is so the problem is because that station Israel in the end of the beginning of ancient and modern Israel in the end of its that right yes this appointment Pentecost 50 rep that's the Red Sea and a lot yeah 1848 oh yeah mm-hmm okay got that yeah and that we stay out of the first all the rest the second you didn't got the foreign disease because it was too fast that's in 1848 32 44 you have four years and then you have more six okay I'm gonna do that this white booty to 44 to 50 is four years and six years and that's their booty six equals type yeah the ten common events for take moments yeah the forensic yeah you have the chip tables in Asian so the other thing is I like that that's good to tell me to get that yeah yeah I think that's really yeah so what I understand about God God laying out the foundation for his fever is in the beginning of ancient and modern Israel he entered in covenant with his people after the close of probation after the disappointment but in the ends of the ancient Israel God's gonna confirm the covenant in the last week before the close of probation age thirty fourth so what I think is in the and he entered some covenant before the close of probation in the last week and that's the midway the cross and I think God enters in cognitive first before the close of probation because we are in the end of mother what's in a second I can get back so this is Moses this is Christ this is Miller and this is us and this is close of probation don't you say yeah okay and in this history he's gonna enter into covenant after okay so I put um I'll put a star here what you paint is that Red Sea and this one is Pentecost and the star equals covenant okay okay the cross this is 34 yes Haidee and covenant is here yeah and this is what's the Covenant 31 yeah okay so the Miller writes this is 1844 and it's here yes and this is 1850 for us this is Daniel 12:1 yes I'm this here and this is Sunday Lord oh good you want to say hi to that so did everybody get that even if you don't understand all the of how we did that that there's this difference between the beginning and the end this one and this one is the beginning beginning of ancient Israel so this is the beginning of ancient Israel the end of ancient Israel so the end sorry now this is modern Israel and this is ancient Israel the beginning and the end the beginning the end the beginning one who goes into covenant afterwards goes into covenant before and the pattern repeated brother later what way I'm not it seems to be that the opposite yes it was then hit more pub than you can say sorry mo no okay any comment this mean it's gonna say we can mark October 22nd 1844 and 2014 and which would make us being now right now in the time period where we confirm the forward where we are considering the firm foundation of our faith which you can connect with division from L wide about the platform where the people standing on the platform are we telling the history how they came to the platform and this won't cause other people who have stepped up come back on okay that was up to deeper application so I'm not going to explain that one figure um so just a sort of a clarification we have the Red Sea which is at midnight which is the close of probation and in 34 ad we have the events the stoning of Stephen which I mean it's not at midnight but but that's the close of probation and then we have Pentecost which is after the close of probation and in Christ's line is it the cross or is it Pentecost where the Covenant or is it just one sort of group of ie1 as a year yeah 31 is the year but you didn't say if it's the cross or Pentecost or are they just tied together for the Covenant when we put in that star why read season you know well he said it was got back to your other question Weiss great sea midwife because it was at midnight right say littered oh yeah when they cross the Red Sea that was at midnight goes before a big bro huh what are you marking the Red Sea is not the crossing of the sea because the point of it but yeah I'd say closer probation it's the close of probation that's all I'm saying okay yeah I don't know Daniel says that he's gonna confirm that caught heads for one week I don't know I think it's actually the whole period from the cross to Pentecost but I I mean I have a reason why I'm asking the question but you have a rated well yeah but it's a little bit big listen I don't know so they're gonna cross the Red Sea at midnight I didn't like that yeah nighttime the Red Sea son said that son said I liked it like that but yes Pacific midnight well Midnight's in the middle of the night and that's when they cross if you decide conceptually there's not quite this ya know yeah there's yeah that's conceptually okay that's why I get so good but the thing is also in that history there is also the midnight that happens with the Passover to so you know I was just trying to understand that close of probation why the Red Sea's the close of probation as if I said as opposed to Passover yeah I funded the same okay probably time you propose the Red Sea okay because I was that's why I was asking about the midnight was it because it was at midnight we're at Passover's at midnight as well okay so all of these are disappointments that's maybe better than closing probations yeah that would so what's the disappointment in 34 you know if and your mother adores bill to see various appointments but see those don't need to you know see they're not so that that actually helps you can put Pentecost below 1850 so in the the beginnings there's a disappointment but in the ends there isn't with the close of probation is that what you're saying which would help predict what is all over this show that the ancient Israel got an interest in covenant after okay so I'm okay with that even if even if it was costly these do we often yeah so in the beginning of ancient and modern Israel is after the close of probation okay being the end of modern and ancient Israel is okay and why do we need to know that what's he showing us because you just said the foundation that has been laid and I believe so we have a firm foundation that's being laid it's like it's going for us for us okay we didn't reach the close of probation so okay so you so the argument you're making is this foundation that we are laying is all before the close of probation okay and you think it's complete and then you say you don't know at the end I thought you forgot it let's pray I have only father we want to give you praise and thanks for the mercy and the goodness that you show to us day by day as we begin to see that this facility is beginning to change in preparation for the upcoming camp meeting we want to pray for a blessing upon the work that needs to be still done to prepare us for next week as we think about the thoughts and ideas that you have taught us this morning it's my hope and prayer that these ideas these thoughts will strengthen our faith that a southern white try to show your people in her generation that the foundations were laid properly and correctly and if we only went back to them we wouldn't enter into fanaticism lord please be with us please guide us through this day we ask for a special blessing upon the food that's been provided and we ask for special care and protection for all of those who are here on the various journeys and activities that each of us have to do be with us invest as we praise Jesus his name amen