(10-10-18) Morning - Approaching S.O.P - (jv1GGcSsYTc)




Publish Date: 10/12/2018
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Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (10-10-18) Morning - Approaching S.O.P-jv1GGcSsYTc
YouTube ID: jv1GGcSsYTc



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IMed each of us has a different way of learning and if we are if we were to ever swap roles like you were here and I were there I'm sure we all would have a different style of teaching so people make comments about the different teachers and their style of teaching and you know we have visual learners and all these different types of things and I think there's some truth in that I think I've only got a few card classes left so it's a bit light now but are we going to get clued up that some people struggle with my teaching style so I should realize this was quite a while ago because I've been doing this for some time but not everybody so forth right in their comments about what I do how I do it so I've realized that one of the big things that people struggle with is my board work not just because it's gets busy but it but it's it's worse than that is because what I will do is and you've seen me do it over the last week since I've been here perhaps more than other times because this class has been particularly forthcoming in your responses if someone comes up with a theory or an idea a question they ask I actually actually draw it out for them so that I understand what what they're saying so they can see what they're saying and I do that for a number of reasons first of all that I have clarity in what they're talking about hopefully that you see what they're doing and also that day themselves see what they're doing because often people have this nebulous idea about what they believe until you actually ask them to explain it and we can really we can it's easy to explain things in flowery words until you forced to put it on a board and then people begin to back out and say actually I don't know what I'm saying so I tried to tease that out of people as soon as you start putting things on a on a board and you start seeing things visually because most of our sensory receptors it with visual people even though you might have a different style of learning most of the information that we get is visual and it has such a overriding impact upon us it has its pros and cons so board work is really powerful not only because it's freestyle but because it is visual the problem is we're tight every time I put something on the ball it hits your eyes goes into your brains and it kind of does something this it's a mystical magical thing and it gets lodged there whether it's right or whether it's wrong which is which is okay but I can tend to keep things on the board for too long and when I do that people aren't sure what's right and what's wrong so I have been listening probably a bit too late now so what I'm gonna try to do in the future and we'll either try to you either use two boards which might not work well or at least split the board with a big divider and say this is working progress and this is the conclusion of what what we've coming to the problem we doing that it's not that I just worked it out you know I was aware of this problem before part of the other problem is I'm really cautious about not imposing my thoughts my ideas upon you at least prematurely and often even at the conclusion I prefer I still to come to a position together because I can change my position before to change it in the class so what you know I'm coming to a class with her with an idea of what I want to portray and I could be shown that I'm wrong so I'm always reticent to to give my ideas too quickly and and sometimes even by the time we've come to the end of a class we want to come to a conclusion so that's another problem that we have so I am listening to people's concerns even though not everybody tells me so I'm I'm going to try and adjust there at least in the future maybe maybe even while we're still here okay so having said that I know we're doing 144,000 I've given you a handout so this is kind of a rest bite from our our study so we just want to take I don't know how long it will take to get through this maybe twenty minutes maybe the whole class I'm not sure so I've just pulled out a chapter from the spirit of prophecies from first selected messages this is page 206 it's called the firm foundation of our faith so this is just a nice devotional reading for an Adventist the the reason why I want to do this it's a bit of a respite from our study if we were to read this how would we approach it how would you approach this reading what would you do with it what would it mean to you if you were to read this so the reason why I'm asking first of all it's just an exercise in reading so it's just it's just just on that base just look at that level just want to see how we would approach this passage for those of us who were in class you'll remember a few days ago we got this rap distracted talking about churches it was my distraction I'm not saying anybody did that and I asked can we lay out where the churches go particularly the 5th 6th and 7th and I thought it's going to be relatively straightforward exercise and it turned out not to be people had actually quite varying views of where things were let work work were to be put and hopefully we ended up with this idea that this was the number 4 which was Thyatira this was 1798 this was number 5 Sardis and within sadhus there were a few who had not defiled their what are their garments and then later SIA sorry Philadelphia looked something like this and later SIA look something like that so this would be number seven and number six this was 1844 and this was 1850 so that's the conclusion that we came to if people have have some varying ideas I'm willing to hear that I'm not gonna discuss this now but I only want to make a point so there was a structure that was laid out there and when I say we're very good at this I'm not saying we're experts because we get it right but what I mean is that we're very good every time we read something we always want to place it on a line we always want to read into a statement look at a word turn it into a symbol and put it somewhere in history when we do that we're more than a we more often than not bring it into our own history into our own time because that's what we want to do I think sometimes it's useful to do then sometimes it isn't useful to do that so we laid this out in middle write history and the reason why I wanted to do that is because when the other way talks about the relationship of the first second and third angels messages she often talks about it in an historical sense and sometimes we we read those passages and we're almost like as a reflex action just bring it all in to our own history without realizing that she's often not doing that she's often saying the first angels message is the historical phenomena and we must retain that in our memory banks and not forget the roots of where we came from or in the context of this passage the firm foundation or the foundation of our faith that history Miller right history someone asked me if we're doing that they thought and they didn't they didn't sort of say this in any serious way so I'll just put Miller right history or condense all of this and just put Miller right and they were asking don't all the churches run parallel like this which was kind of a suggestion that by the Daniel came up which is why this all happened we were talking about something and he had a spirit prophecy quote that seemed to just get these churches and make them all into the present tense and so I was asking don't the church is just all run parallel all the way through is this some kind of new theory that that destroys this concept and I said no I don't think so they're just trying to teach different ideas different truths so when we get a pat when we get a quite a passage of spirit prophecy of inspiration that's in front of us how are we going to approach this so more often than not as I say we want to make some kind of prophetic application and bring it into our own line so we're going to see if that's possible or if it's not possible or what we can learn from this passage so that's what we're doing just to see how we can get it says you what I'm doing is like getting a random passage like this say this is that passage and can we put into some kind of structure so if I were just to do this this would have been like Sardis Philadelphia and latest year and not only those three it would have been all four hopefully even if you don't know how to do it you're comfortable that this fourth church Thyatira is the 1260 years if you're okay with that you will have heard again even if you don't fully understand it that if this was the 1260 1798 538 if I go to 1863 we do 1863 to 1989 and we make that 126 everybody has heard that maybe not everybody understands what we do in there but I think most of us would and we're saying there's a direct relationship between these two this is a tenth of the 1260 because we want to make a point so as soon as you do that then you're saying we're in the history of Thyatira but IRA become comes into that history if you're okay with that what is this history here from 538 to 1798 we have discussed this already so I'm just going to put it with this symbol of a crown so if I did that does everybody know what I'm doing who doesn't so what we're saying is that if this is the history of the papacy the papacy is going to take down we normally call them horns three horns and then it will rule through primi it or rule the world so that crown is a symbol that it's it's a king ruling the world and we can do the same thing with pagan Rome so takes down three rules the world and if we're going to use that concept for Thyatira on the 1260 I should say in this one we're not saying it's taken out three territories and then it's ruling through Preem lis what we are saying is we're taking the characteristics of the 1260 because this 1260 has in in this context two characteristics one of them is rulership you okay with that sister Tamina cuz you had your hand up yeah that's rule this ship another one is let me put captivity are we okay with captivity or scattering if you if you prefer that phrase because this is the second half of the twenty five twenty we're going into captivity we're being punished while we being punished what church are we diet IRA and the church that comes before Thyatira is Pergamos and what in your thinking what would be the if you think about the history of Pergamos the third church the third seal what would be the characteristic that stands out for you in that history um if I don't say the characteristic let me ask the character who's the character that stands out for you when we think about diet IRA trade furthermore compromise okay so whom I asked who constantiy Constantine so we often go to Constantine Constantine is a pagan king and he's going to compromise his religious belief with the church and as soon as he compromises like he takes one step closer to the church the church is going to do what take one step closer to him now when we say the church we have to be careful about how we're going to mix prophecy in history because history that church is who sorry the Catholic Church is the papacy and we know that's not the church but we're going to use that idea that there's going to be this compromise that's going to damage the church the true church and if we went to Thyatira revelation 2:20 will see that the angel of Thyatira is not a good angel the angel of a each of those churches is a symbol of whom leadership is a symbol of leadership so the leadership of the church in the history of Thyatira are not good leaders because they doing two things the passage talks about Jezebel maybe I'll just turn there verse 19 to nineteen danger has done some good things verse twenty notwithstanding the good things I have a few things against thee because thou whose the Dow the angel not if we were okay with that not the church it's the angel the angel is suffereth or allowing that woman Jezebel which calleth her which calleth herself a prophetess to teach and to seduce my servants so I'd say that's the church to commit fornication into eat things sacrificed unto idols so the leadership in the church God's church is allowing Jezebel who is the wife of registration wife of Ahab who has false prophets to come and effect God's people to destroy their faith who would we say that Jezebel is sister Elissa this is a Catholic Church and she's married whom what's what's their name married a had so brother Graham give me a Bible verse where you can see Jezebel has married a hab I don't mean Old Testament story I don't mean that where that's obvious relation 13 revelation 13 what would you what would you see in Revelation 13 if you can't receive the verse just tell me maybe something okay sister Kathy where would you go and see Jezebel as married a town revelation 17 - does that work for you brother bro yes revelation 17 verse 2 we'll go back to verse 1 the last part of the verse it says the great Whore that sitteth upon many waters so that whore sister Cathy is saying is Jezebel if we're OK to make that connection and what she's doing is committing fornication with the kings of the earth so just that that simple never can we see some connection there you get Kings you get a woman committing fornication you're in Revelation - you've got Jezebel and just the bells married to a hab in Revelation - you don't see a hab in that story don't see the kings of the earth but we're just picking up her name everybody okay with that so this is this is the logic that we use where we say take down three territories three horns now rules supremely we know that it gets state support to take down the three horns it's going to rule supremely with an iron fist but coming back to Jezebel that was the ruling bit the leaders are allowing her to come and infiltrate God's church to do all of this seductive work now we'd have to go back to the previous chapter so a previous section about Pergamos so if you go back to the original story not only is Jess bell seducing and teaching God's people error but she's also got like a vice-like grip upon them and they're really in captivity if you try and fight against Jezebel she's going to kill you and we see that even in the original story no Elijah tries to fight against her and she says I'm about to kill you I had were searching for Elijah that man who troubles Israel to destroy him so there's this captivity component here so we're taking both of those things when we go to 63 to 89 we're not talking about rulership here we're talking about their captivity okay with that so we're taking this concept of captivity but we know from 1989 onward what the papacy going to be doing it's going to conquer three territories one two three now do you see a problem here this is this history that leads up to five thirty eight and 538 on a reformed line isn't even in their effort isn't even really a reformed line the reformed line begins here at time at the end so you've got time at the end here and this is the reformed line time at the end so what what we end up doing is we take these patterns but they don't line up in exactly the same way that we might think you don't say you have three horns you have some history and then it leads to a time at the end it does here if you if you see this you have one two six 1260 leads to a time at the end you can see that pattern here can we see that but then we're in the time of the end it's going to take down three territories this is Daniel 11:40 two forty five forty two forty five and then we're going to get to this stage so this is the king of the south the glorious leg and Egypt and it's taken down three horns or three territories so what will happen after that it will rule through cleanly so it's gonna rule supremely here it also cream Li this must be a 1260 then so I'll put a 1260 here to indicate there's going to be ruling supreme then God's people are gonna be punished so all I'm pointing out when we just did this exercise is when we approach any history we tend to try and bring it into our own history and we can use this 1260 here is a date or a time period 126 years but we can also just use it as a concept here where the papacy is going to be ruling supremely and the game would go to Revelation we're going to go to here where would you go to Revelation even if you don't know the verse which chapter would you go to it this is the subtle but by the way this is the Sunday law here I'm saying this is the Sunday law so you go to Revelation 13 where else would you go go to Revelation 17 I think you'd have to go to both of those things because what's happening here no bye no sale and they're going to force you to do that there's going to be economic and it's gonna be economic pressure and I don't know how to I don't say military but you want to call it a military state there's some kind of force that's going to be applied to you that you can be put to death if you don't comply with those things so there must be some kind of state involvement here at the Sunday law and in revelation 17 he says the kings of the earth if you just went back to this history they're going to rule with the whore so we can see that Church state relationship and while we go to Revelation 13 because it's a Sunday law period and the Sunday law period is not say is if you go to Revelation 13 what characteristics are you seen brother Daniel when you take us to Revelation 13 just to Sunday nor issue or something else the deadly wound is healed characteristics that sometimes we miss does everybody know that chapter 12 chapter 13 in chapter 17 he's talking about the same beast in 12 it's this red dragon in 13 it's this leopard like beast and in 17 it's this Scarlet beast it's 1 2 3 12 13 and 17 and if you look at the characteristics of that animal they're all the same it's got seven heads and ten horns yeah as a ridge so if you do that and you just proof takes you know that this is talking about the same animal the same entity and what we what we would need to do is try and understand how that all works so if you looked at 12 when you looked at 13 and 17 I don't know I don't know if you can see it from that distance but in 12 you can see that there are crowns here Kevin if you can see the crowns those crowns are on the heads of that animal and if you go to 17 you'll see that there are no crowns on that scarlet-colored Beast no crowns are mentioned at all but you go to 13 chapter 13 verse 1 it tells you that the crowns have now moves from the heads to the horns if we can see that 13 1 so those are little subtle clues help you to put that chapter into a framework into a into a dispensation so there understand that concept if you know to understand that the intricacies of how you'd what how you'd make an application you can just see shifting of crowns I say that you have to take my word for it that that there is crowns on their heads crowns on the horns and no crowns if you haven't read the verses but but it's it's there so if you just go to Revelation 13 revelation 17 and you see what those ten horns are those ten horns are ten Kings and those ten Kings haven't received a kingdom until the end of the world so it's futures not present tense the ten Kings haven't ruled yet they're not ruling so if you take that concept then when you go to chapter 13 you know it's talking about the future at the end of the world because now those ten Kings those horns have got crowns and that's this history here the ten Kings have got crowns they're Co ruling with the papacy everybody okay with that contact anybody not understand that the problem with that is what this is just a general problem that causes us that can cause that can call this real real real trouble chapter 13 talks about a lot of things it talks about a beast that's coming out of the waters and he's standing upon the sand of the sea so it's at the interface between sea and land let me read that 13:1 and they stood upon the sand of the sea and saw a beast rise up out of the sea having seven heads ten horns so there's this interface between sea and land and in that gives some kind of historical context of where you're moving through from sea to land are we okay with that yeah so we did this the other day so what I did say wrong if this was 1798 we said this was the C and this was the land we didn't say it that way at all when we say C here where we are key with this is chapter 13 where else will be seen this C we read it minute ago Buddha we didn't read it 17 one I skipped over there bit I just said the whore says the Hori sitting upon many waters yeah so you tell me what the waters is okay so people are always go to verse 15 revelation 17 15 because it's it's a proof text definition of what the seas are so I want to give I want to suggest another definition of doses the same definition but it's in the next verse it's in the next verse brother Philip said the Beast obviously it's not the Beast it's the next verse it stir but in the verse it calls it what it says kings of the earth so to make it the horns we have to do a bit more work so I'm saying it's she sitting on the waters he's sitting on the Kings this is a relationship of fornication if we're okay with that that makes sense 17:1 she sits on waters and then it says with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication and the rest of the verse basically saying the Kings how do we read verse 2 the rest of the verse what the Kings doing what keyword that you pick did you just pick up there okay okay they're making people but but what are they doing what does that mean okay they've done that and what are they doing what does that mean for see that one is that that's what I wanted to pick up the word making is forcing the kings of the earth have done things voluntarily because they like that kind of behavior but they're forcing the people to do something did we read that concept in revelation 2:20 the angel of ladis of Thyatira he's doing what she's allowing Jezebel to teach and seduce so the angels doing its thing but it's the servants are sort of innocent victims if I want to I want to portray in that way the it happens to the earth they're not interested in all of this stuff they've been made to has it's a to drink the wine of the fornication they don't have a choice in this so the Kings are voluntary the people it's been foisted upon them so I'm saying that the waters are the Kings then if you go to verse 3 then it says can drain the Spirit in the wilderness and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured Beast so if we were just a proof text waters equals war Kings equals war this was verse one this is verse two equals the Beast verse three so I'm saying this this is the repeat and enlarge the waters equals the Kings equals the Beast are we okay with that yeah and then we'd say it's Nations which is verse 15 I'm not trying to undo that that's the primary way that we approach it but I would if we could see the waters equals Kings equals a beast it would help us to really settle into our minds what this beast is and who the Kings are so here we are she's coming out of the waters I've put this here so what are the waters I'm saying the waters are the Kings so these are the kings of Europe and we're standing on the cusp of the sea and the land and I'm going to say the land is the United States which is this model that we developed I think he was just maybe the day before Europe here which is being ruled by the papacy in revelation 17:5 the papacy is called war Babylon 17:5 this is Babylon and this is the time of the end and people are going to leave Babylon to go to the United States which is the glorious land okay with that so if we can jump back two and a half thousand years and we'd be in Isaiah chapter 45 46 47 that kind of area we can develop the same logic the same argument and this is also the time at the end but this is Cyrus this is the story of Cyrus and sister Alyssa what year are we in 723 so you know yeah 723 down there I'm not pinning the you know it's wrong there were 23 sister Cathy 538 will bring BC territory it's two and a half thousand 538 friends above 102 457 but that's afterwards I wasn't three-two-three 457 BC anyone else wife say 538 okay when he becomes sole ruler and Babylon fell so you taking a fall of Babylon here from fight at 5:38 secular history is going to tell us that it's 539 so by the Philip you say something maybe some wine I think I think he became choral learning a solid ruler in 536 so I don't know the kingi's is the rious not cyrus when when the fall of Babylon happens that's chapter by he rules for two years this is this is the tension between the first year of Cyrus Cyrus in the third year of Cyrus so I'll put 538 536 we have that prohibit yep technically he becomes the sole ruler in 537 he does the decree in 536 so you got this decree is six months later okay so let me just so that so that we're accurate we've got five thirty eight equals five thirty nine this is to do with the because the years don't start at the same time I'll be okay with that yeah yeah and we're saying 537 equals the king and 536 equals the decree yeah since that technically accurate yeah so maybe we can take a note of that so that same history and essentially cyrus is going to say you can do what leave Babylon just leave Babylon and go back home go to the glory so so you can see the same parallel there so do as i mentioning that is because as i say thirteen one begins in this history and i'm say begins way back here in 1798 then it kind of jumps back and forth in history you can go to verse 11 he says and i behold another beast coming up out of the earth so where are you now in verse eleven thirteen eleven revelation 13:11 Sue Ellen where are you okay I'm sorry tell me did any of which which how much of this didn't make any sense to you all that was good did you see how I connected the sea and the earth is coming out of the sea you're standing on the shore and is going on to land did that make sense okay and I'm saying this is Europe that sea represents Europe and I'm saying that that land represents the United States does that make sense and that's 1798 the time at the end then I wait two and a half thousand years back to the story of Cyrus and I'm saying Cyrus says the same thing Cyrus is the first of three kings Cyrus Darius our tech services who are going to give these decrees and here in this history from 538 to 536 this two-year history he's going to become the king he's going to destroy Babylon and it's the time of the end Babylon comes to its end so I've paralleled two histories together does that make sense and in that history God's people are going to leave Babylon and go back home so with all that all that little bit okay yes all this is BC and this is ad so I've given that in the general sense and you can just really pick it up from this chart here 538 BC the fall of Babylon it says on the chart so I've put it up here now it says 538 bro Theodore could show us that it's actually October 539 that's right October 539 so I'm saying 538 on the chart equals 539 in secular history that's why I've put the equals there then 537 Syrus becomes king after de rious dice and a few months later rapido said six months later in 536 he writes the first decree the first message you had the first message than the second message than the third message so all of that we can just collapse into a singular event which we call the time of the end and that's why I put Cyrus here God's people are captive in Babylon and they're going to go home to the glorious land does that make sense okay so I came back to revelation 13 and I'm saying revelation 13 the whole theme of that is the Sunday law from the beginning to the end and the the thing we're picking up is those crowns on the horns verse 1 the crowns are on the horns does that make sense sister Sue Ellen yeah but the problem is if we're going to say that 13:1 is 1798 here those crowns are not on the horns in 1798 it's historically inaccurate to say that does that make sense because the kings were ruling here and they've ditched Jezebel or the papacy by the time to come to 1798 there are no kings ruling with her but the Kings to rule with her this is this history here at the end of the world much much further along down the way but what john has done is he's taken the symbol of the end of the world and attached it to that beast and run it through all the way through because here you're here in 1798 will you start math chapter and you're going all the way through with this piece that's got crowns upon its horns so sometimes that can throw us it can distract us does that make sense not really okay you agree that verse degree verse one we would place that 1798 comes out of Europe goes to the glorious land would that make sense comes up out of the sea goes upon the land yes so I'm saying that 1798 and the Beast has already got crowns upon its head but in 1798 there are no kings ruling with the papacy yes the horns those ten horns equals ten Kings someone give me the Bible verse to this chapter first seventeen verse when a client get those these key words in our minds the people that we're not looking for them sister Sue Ellen ten horns at ten Kings just proof text that dos 10 Kings are in the future because they're not ruling yet they're in the future they're at the end of the world and I'm putting them here ten kings you okay with that so wives so I'm saying chapter 12 chapter 13 chapter 17 we've got a we've got a look they're not just historically but conceptually we have to juggle three chapters all at once and try and get the concept of what's being taught by them in Chapter 12 we didn't go to that one so chapter 12 is verse 3 there appeared another wonder in heaven a great red dragon having seven heads ten horns and seven Crown's upon his head so you've got 12 13 and 17 oh and we want to get all of those three concepts together on the haze not on the horse yes in a different place and in said chapter 17 there are no crowns at all and I'm saying it's the same feast same animal there are no crowns so that's trying to teach you something it's a clue so even though it's taking you way back into history in chapter 13 if you went from verse 1 all the way through to verse 10 it talks about a lot of information but by time you get to verse 11 it says there's another beast coming up out of the earth and who is that what year so I'm saying that 1798 in fact that's the spirit prophecy quote that give us that information no because it's like a land so you have these two beasts all being brought to view in 1798 so it's going to tell you this story from 1798 how you gonna get these two beasts running through history but the focus of the chapter II is this but that's all I wanted us to see that the focus is the egg but it's going to tell you how you get from the beginning to the end the Daniel then brother and in the middle of let's say 33 years and then you have they want to see and in 1989 begins the conquering of the three okay okay so you want to if I can just write what you just say you want to put the formalization is the midpoint yeah one two three 1261 two six one two three don't you think okay the reason why I mentioned all of this it's taking a bit longer than I thought is when we read we want to try to understand the context of how we take a symbol like the 1260 how we always want to bring it into a framework and then bring it to the end of the world we have a habit of doing that and rightly so so well that worked it questions yes the firm foundation of our faith just from the title where would you place this title is the firm foundation when the foundation is complete is that we say yeah foundation is spinny and where you want to put that I wouldn't know how you approach this problem just on this type of work what would you do with that you're saying this is 1850 anyone else okay agree leave it 1842 1850 I guess ladies like it I'm sure she said it cuz she said it's finished that I just gave the end date you're just given the beginning so you know I'm a fifty you may not agree with that for forty days but it has some history many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid my husband elder joseph bates father pierce will skip they comment from the compilers welder Hiram Edson and others who were keen noble and true were among those who after the passing of the time in 1844 search for the truth as for hidden treasure I met with them and we studied and prayed earnestly often we remain together until late at night and sometimes through the entire night praying for light and studying the word again in the gain these brethren came together to study the Bible in order that they might know its meaning and be prepared to teach it with power when they came to the point of their study where they said we can do nothing more Spirit of the Lord would come upon me I would be taken off in vision and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me with instruction as to how we were to labor and to teach effectively thus light was given that helped us to understand the Scriptures in regard to Christ his mission and his priesthood a line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the City of God was made plain to me and I gave to others the instructions that the Lord had given me so what do you take from this from this first paragraph what things stand out for you can we begin to draw a line what the key points brother Bob couple things that stand out to me is that as they were searching for the truth as hidden treasure after 1844 they continued to study that they not all you're supposed to be able to know the meaning of the scriptures but be prepared to teach it with power that's one thing that stands out to me and and a little further down the paragraph how they were to labor and teach effectively oh I see this the purpose is not only to learn the message but to learn it in a way that they're prepared to teach it effectively and with power so go back to the beginning many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid then she lists some people who were there when that was happening after the note from the compilers these people were key noble and true they're among those who after the passing of the time in 1844 search for the truth as the hidden treasure so picking up a Bible passage search the truth as to hidden treasure and this is after 1844 so here's 1844 the deal is this October so this is October 1844 and what are they doing so they're searching the truthers for hidden treasure so that last bit when it talks about after 1844 well how how is that being connected to the first sentence where it talks about the foundation of the faith where is the foundation of the faith being laid many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid what foundation is that but when is that sister Brahma about what slate so this previous to officially saying so you tell me where to put it on this line 344 so you're saying the foundation is here and why are you saying that from where you pick it up okay so you've got that already has been laid that's the first sentence has been laid already been laid how are you making that pre October I shouldn't actually just cut out that bit in the Middle East but it's not really necessary the first bit and then it says were among those I Spartans time how are you making the foundation pre October how you reading that part nursing there's paragraph I'm assuming it's pre October are you happy yeah I've asked you I've often the foundation uses quick type of white st. pre October I have automatic assumption in there because there was a passing of time and they were disappointed so I assume so we know that after October they're searching for his treasure so even though even if we don't know why they're doing that we know that they are doing that and okay so we can make the assumption that the reason they're doing that is they're going through a check-in process about and that's not just an assumption we know that factually really that that's why they're doing that brother Jason pressure with it for the study why they were disappointed orally as hidden treasure was because they missed the date or something that's me right there you're gonna answer that question or you a different point okay so let's just wrap up that point name so we know that they've got a disappointment we know that Hiram Edison has just received a visions when I say just depending where you are in October he's received his vision so this is his explanation of what's gone wrong just on that one point so they now have to go in justify and explain the veracity of actually what has happened so they're going to go back and study if his explanation of things make sense is it's really it's reasonable and I think the commentary that the historical one or even Ellen White's is that that is actually what they were doing if we were just to pick up you don't make this really simple what they're going to do is they're going to realize that the sanctuary is not the earth and they're going to study this diligently in the midst of this there's this trouble er my husband elder joseph bass so josy space he's going to cause them some aggregate aggravation and what's his problem the Sabbath he's already a sabbatarian and he's going to now push the Sabbath agenda upon them and they're gonna start having to deal with the Sabbath stand in 46 seven why it's being persuaded and she's gonna start keeping the Sabbath get married get rebaptised so there's the Sabbath issue and there's the sanctuary issue sister Bromley baptized it's slightly confusing why are we counting that first baptism anyway oh okay I think that why why wouldn't you why white you off that question cuz I've seen it on the documentary yesterday or the day before too and it struck me as odd and it strikes me as odd again so maybe I'm missing something why is she didn't read baptized she was never baptized and everything which fight the real one so you say her baptism into Methodism or the Methodist Church is not real genuine how what you saying it's not I don't believe that baptism I don't believe in that baptism oh so I feel like her her baptism was her baptism not her rebuffed ISM but I don't want to distract them why does she get baptized the first one the Methodist one earned it she was convicted of what yeah so it's the message that's making her get baptized so she gets baptized as a result of the message and who are these men who are these Methodists they're a conglomeration of we call them when we call them Saudis I was gonna break the symbology that she's dead but just the fact that this is God's church and um and what's um what's Miller's position on sectarianism for the vast majority of the middle-right movement that's right he won't do that he's got a policy that he will not divide Protestantism he says this message stands independent of all the sects he didn't want to create his own movement his own church it with everything tension so everyone who's going to be baptized under the first angels message the only option for them to be baptized is to get baptized in their own church so when Fitch is baptizing in 44 what's he baptizing you into three what would you call that sect so you can see they're getting into problems now because I don't think they've got some formal position like with the church triumphant we are the the epitome of Sardis or we're now Philadelphia they don't have that self-identification I think they're just getting baptized into the faith and they can no longer get baptized into a sectarian Church because they've been thrown out of the churches so there is kind of limbo land really this halfway house about what they actually getting baptized into I'm not even showing 46 where Ellen White's getting baptized into I don't think that she's getting baptized into anything except like just these the truth so it would seem to me the her baptism post 44 is very similar to the baptisms pre 44 that say Fitch is doing especially after the disappointment of April and their 6-month period and people are getting baptized I think probably for the first time because I don't think people are getting reed baptized in that history they're just getting baptized into the faith into this nebulous idea of theology if you like they don't have a recognition I don't think that they're getting baptized into the millerite movement is they're not formalized that concept but the people before Ellen White is an example who gets baptized because of the conviction their God give him glory for the area's judgment has come she's doing this all based upon the message she doesn't have an option except to get baptized in their own church it's not like she says well I'm just a Methodist and I think I want to find God this is all in response to the first angel so I guess I guess I have trouble to sort of just sort of just trash her first baptism and say this is not a rebaptised because this is a this is a refinement of her not of her understanding and it's so significant because it's a third danger I think she's getting baptized into that truth and it's so important that she wants to really do this because she realizes she's been breaking the God's commandment all this time before oh I think we could make that argument that as Advent is wavering breaking there's God's commandment which is the fourth commandment and the adventures are going to kick back and say we're Sabbath keepers we doesn't mean destroying the Sabbath commandment all these years so we don't need to get rebaptised and our argument is perhaps that when we say you've been trashing the Sabbath it's not that you don't keep the seventh-day Sabbath because what is the Sabbath it's not only that weekly seventh-day Sabbath but there are other Sabbath's aren't they there's the land Sabbath's there's revelation 13 Sabbath the Sabbath at the end of the world that prophetic one we're trashing both of those we don't believe anything about the Sunday law and we've rejected the 2520 which is the Sabbath it's not a coincidence it's called seven times or the seven connected to the Sabbath connected to the seven-year cycle there's all of that and how do we reject the Sunday law cuz all eventi say they believe in the Sunday law sunday law is the Sabbath issued how did they reject that I'm gonna say time they say we don't we don't know any information about the Sabbath and not knowing about it makes you unfit to be ready for it so all of that can be tied together and the one titled the third angels message and I think that's what that remapped ISM is about it's it's a focus to say we actually really believe a totally committed now to the third angels message it's changed our lives in a way that as Adventists we didn't understand as a Methodist when we got baptized then it's our days now we actually realize that we're getting baptized keeping the commandments properly that's that's how I would conceptualize that okay so I want to know why sorry yes I you Sabbath and Sunday law interchangeably when I say Sabbath I didn't mean to say that I didn't mean to say that say the Sabbath because the Sabbath is the fourth commandment and it's that one that's the focus of attention it's the Sabbath Sunday issue because when we say when we put all these sevens you know after the door is shut and they wait seven days and I think since the test said there were these seven kings after Pires those sevens are not Sunday because that's number one we make that step that symbology about seven being the Sabbath so when I say Sabbath yes I mean Sabbath Sunday controversy that's what I mean so when I say we don't know about the Sabbath we don't know that the Sunday controversy is going to come in the future we believe it in the nebulous term so yes my language maybe maybe threw you on that does that make sense why I said Sabbath I actually did mean Sunday but I wanted to say Sabbath because he's because I wanted to run that through so the foundation Tamina maybe I'm reading the wrong language barrier or Sun but what I'm reading is that first the first statement is that people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid and now she goes and explains how it's been laid so that will place the foundation then after 1844 yeah really great foundation after 1844 she's writing it back in nineteen hundred and four so she's looking back what's the date for this at least not in this passage 1904 if you just want to pay to the earlier notice he's making a price I normally do that and I forgot which is 1904 sister Bromley there they're moving it post 1844 sometimes you see a party parties being here that's right the time frame so it makes a difference I'm willing to adjust anyone got any comment or objection or they will express it in a different way my question is this she's talking that we've got two there she says after the passing of time in 1844 this is October 1844 then the lead sentence talks about the foundations were laid foundation Surrey was laid and I want to I want to know when the foundation is laid in connection with the passing of time in 1844 brother bought it related to this but not directly in this passage we've looked at the foundation before and and and there's there's passages that talked about from 1840 to 1844 being the foundation being built and then we've looked at the difference between foundation and pillars and and our concept of what that looked like tis the pillars standing on top of the foundation or the pillars supporting the foundation and if you put that all together it does seem to fit that by 1850 the foundation is probably I have with what you've just stayed yeah is that you've taken multiple spirit prophecy quotes and kind of just said they're all equal and lay them together and you can get you can get unstuck if you do that so so that's why I'm asking the question how do we read this because if you do that you end up bringing bringing pre-information onto this and you can get directed and you know with with a wrong thought or wrong idea you may end up coming with the right conclusion but I think it's it's really helpful just to read contextually how how she's doing this in this passage because in another place talking about pillars arranging pillars she'll explain pillars in a different way not always in the same way you might think well I've got this beautiful model about pillars and you get these other spirit prophecies go out and you'll just trash what you're doing because it's looking at it in a different perspective brother Philip where the Bob was saying was about I think she has a quarter she talks about the truth we received in 1841 42 and 43 and she says they are the Rock of Ages and she's been standing on those truth I don't know if she meant she says the word foundation there but for sure she says the Rock of Ages and we know in the mineral form line replace the foundation from 1840 to 1842 I think anyway before 1844 so I think both approaches are true and when one hour what I want to add this they did both they also they did two things in this period one is they really studied and reconfirmed the mineral rights doctrine and two they added the third angels message to it as an explanation to the disappointment so you could say I could I try to visit it the following way what has been done creating 44 is also a foundation is a foundation of this foundation planet it's like this one is also because it's this one adds to that I'm gonna stop it because and I'm gonna say I'm going to be really rude I'm not really interested in what you think what I am interested in how you've read all I'm asking is how do you read what this statement says not what your understanding of history is or bring another SOP quote into this what is other white trying to teach us here because if we if we if we agree either on the information on then when we make an application it becomes difficult and sometimes confusing she's clearly referring to post 1824 okay so you can read that really clearly because I think we all know and that's why I wanted us to read this because I would he know we all have this idea that the foundations were laid pre 8 October 1844 we're coming in into this reading knowing that and the inclination is to read into her sentences pre 1844 but is that what she's saying and and that's how I wanted to know how we read that that that introductory thought are we going to mass harsher words to make something fit because we know that we put a foundation before that that's that's all I want us to do and people get nervous because they say what does that mean we didn't have a foundation create a pre October and I'm not trying to make that point I just want to know what Ellen White is saying so yes we know that we could go to another spot a proscope to demonstrate that and you giving us the one I agree with you I don't think he says foundation in that passage it says the rock of ages' and she gives those sakes and we therefore develop that anyone else that had their hand up no so he's everybody okay that the foundation of her faith the lead sentence she's going to tell you the foundation is finished and then she's going to explain how and when that was done how and when the foundation was laid she mentions a number of people and then it says she lets she says they're with others they were among those who after the passing of the time laid him fully for search for the truth is for hidden treasure so you have you hung up sorry in a second no no not an application though too early okay I want to get a bit I want to get make a make some other observations before making an application whether the foundations are beginning to be laid in the way she is right in this okay thereafter so debit they begin to be here so I'm going to take foundation out of here and put it here we'll cheat now okay so this is cheating where would it end I'm so 63 oh okay 63 why 63 would be your reason to make it 63 oh that's the blade me my book okay I put my name on there but sister Brittany oh brother Jason sorry what did you skip ahead it says building upon the foundation for the last 50 years so can you take the 50 somehow and start okay so we'll do that thing that's why we need to date you know and it was my so popular did this too quickly this morning so we'll do 1904 50 years and we're gonna get to 1854 does that make sense sister Britt Brahmi yeah so we've got to 1854 so if we're gonna if we're going to be gonna if we're going to use that as that as a mass calculation then the foundations must have been completed pre 54 so so we could I guess theoretically say this was 1854 if we did if we did that we'd have to find a way mark or some important event that would be 1854 so I'll just put approximately 1854 but it'd have to be pre sister Brittany you Anna so that you're going to take the Foundation's all the way to 18 yeah that that's the a that is so you're saying the foundations stretch to 1884 from 1844 so it takes 40 years to build the foundations what why'd you why'd you say go so far into the future okay so the logic that sister Brittany saying is there's something about Ellen White and her visions that is part in connected to this story and a vision to stop in 1884 does everybody know that as a historical fact yeah so that's why she's picking up it's the visions that she's the sister Brittany's picking up here sister Rachel did you jump in heck even to the next paragraph but you don't want to do I've got to try sticking this paragraph because if we do that what we'll we'll lose a bit a lot of information the first sentence the one that we that we've got to after the passing of time anybody want to comment about that after the passing of time since the brother plate and what does that mean to you that's passing of time yesterday morning right yeah so how is she using this pasta that's just the pie prophecy is finished yeah so here this time so she could legitimately say after time has finished passing the time after time is finished so she'd say there's no more time when she says no more time wouldn't she mean in this context the passing off time what does she mean it is no more time I've put she didn't say that no more time I'm saying that what does that mean brother Larry good the prophetic periods have ended that's how why and that's what I understand that she means after the passing of time everything's ended so I noticed that you put a an S at the end of this this looks like a Fife you want to make it prophetic periods Clayton I'm also we understood it from yesterday as it was the end of that one that she was talking about not the end of all of them the way I understood before okay so is it prophetic periods or period I don't get into a new discussion but just for us to think about when she's saying because what we want to understand is not what we think what does she think what's the point that she's making here when she says the passing of the time in October 1844 good because what we want to do Alan Watts a prophet so what we wanted to do is trying to get into her mind we want to try and entering into her mind and say what is she thinking when she's writing all of this because if we do that not her mind that we're entering into it's God's mind and and I the reason why I make that point is when the Bible says let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus have been in the form of a servant or it not robbery we often take that passage to say the mind of Christ is this nice humble servant person and we limit it to that that we should be nice people I want to make the point that having the mind of Christ is not only being a nice person it's also thinking like he thinks since the test made the argument that reform lines was they're all identical have different characteristics she didn't labor this point but I have mentioned it Moses is lying Christ line the millerite line and our line so there's an argument and I think I think I believe it's true that these two lines here are the lines of success and these two lines here are the lines of failure this mistakes in here so if that's true and it says let this mind be in you Christ is here at the very beginning from the time at the end all the way to the end and does he understand everything he knows what he's doing he's not making any mistakes just with that thought that idea so when he says let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus this is not just he's a nice person this is also someone who's being led and directed by God he knows what he's thinking he knows what he's going from this point to this point so when he wants to go to a feast and his brothers say how comes you're not going to the feast he said I don't want to go to that feast and they say well it's because you're a chicken you're worried about what people think about you that's why you're not going if you're a real man and brave and and you actually would them astray that you claim to be you would go there but he knows what he's doing so he says I'm not going to that one then he goes surreptitiously and secretly so all I'm saying is the mind of Christ is more than just being a nice person so when we read what I think we shouldn't were supposed to try to do is to try and get into Ellen White's thinking of why she's saying what she's saying and the more we can do that the more practiced we are in that then we can make a correct we can have a correct understanding of the point she's making and then application becomes so much easier and you're less liable to make a mistake so that's what that that's why I asked a question just on this point when she says the passing of the time does she mean the prophetic periods or the she mean the prophetic periods singular what is she mean by that that's why I ask that question now I'm not saying we have a definitive answer because we could we'll have different opinions but the closer we can get to trying to understand what she means the better off we can be when we make application and we try to understand what we're supposed to do and then how we would teach our message to other people okay so maybe if you get a chance to read through the document then we can pick it up tomorrow let's pray our Heavenly Father we thank you for your goodness Lord help us to have the mind of Christ help us to be able to understand how we deal with these different symbols things that seem so confusing at first sight but the closer we begin to emulate you not only in our intellectual thought processes father but also in our behavior in our conduct one with another lord throughout this day may we have a taste of the mind of Christ both you know intellectual thoughts but also in our behavior one to another we ask for a protection and grace we ask for a blessing upon the food that you're that you've provided for our needs be with us in bless us we pray in Jesus name Amen