(09-20-18) Morning - What is a Prophet - (YDWHO9XaQcg)




Publish Date: 9/20/2018
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amen the great controversy page 343 paragraph 2 the last sentence the last part of the sentence it says that these servants do not comprehend in all its bearings the message which they utter in his name and we've discussed the implications and the inferences of of what that means as we read on I'm making the argument that it's not their humanity that's the problem even though the verses that she quotes particularly the ones from Jo seem to infer this that their gods almost saying who do you think you are you're not anywhere as close to me as you think you are can stall by searching find out God can now find out the almighty unto perfection as we read on it seems more and more that it's because of preconceived ideas traditions etc that they become blindly to their situation but I just want to make another observation or comment about the bearings in prayer meeting we're not following through this study but we are doing a separate and distinct study it's taken from early writings and we're looking at the advent movement Illustrated for those of us they'd been recorded that the pro means so they're being recorded if you want to review them we've done two meetings and probably about halfway through this chapter now to me this is an example of looking at a message in all of its bearings even a relatively simple story as the Miller right line in a single narrative is not able to explain that history in all of its bearings so what sister white does is she explains this history from a number of different perspectives and to chapter titles that that the illustrate this are the following the one that we do in the Advent movement Illustrated and the other one is another illustration now you remember in the prayer meeting a number of you have spoken about these people especially after the disappointment who leave the movement and did try to direct us to say actually in this chapter there is no mention of that you seem to get this idea that whoever accepted the message from the very beginning successfully navigates their way all through that movement people arguing those who were didn't really accept the first angels message couldn't be benefited by the second but it doesn't really it doesn't really give you that perspective in this chapter we haven't finished the chapter yet by the way but if you go to the next chapter you don't necessarily have to turn them just want to read one sentence to you it's taken from the first power this is two four five paragraph two and again if you're in if you're in the prayer meeting you'll know about how the light will shed upon everybody go to in darkness and those who are in the light it gives one perspective it gives you the middle right history from one bearing if you like but it can't give you all the bearings so this other one says though it was shed upon all some merely came under its influence but did not heartily receive it so without studying it to any dent rightly or wrongly I would suggest that's a an allusion to the foolish virgins they've come under the influence but they didn't hardly receive it so it seems to be introducing the separate group which is not the same group or he's not identified in the previous chapter so that that's all I want us dead that's very comment I want to make here so but Larry was saying just mentioned it this morning so they enjoyed the study the pro meeting because the wonder what things are still there that we haven't noticed or understood or picked up and I smiled after that I'm sure there but there are lots of things that we haven't picked up but besides just think that we may or may not have seen one of the things that it that it hopefully shows us that the reason why I message is so complicated is because there are so many ways of looking at it we can place way marks when we transfer them from a history historical setting into our own line in different places and he can really begin to confuse people this is why I think our message is so difficult if it was just a single story it's a linear story just the advent movement Illustrated we could get that bring it in to our own line it would be relatively straightforward but then we have to deal with other issues and most of us are not able to juggle with those two concepts at the same time and that's what I think of why we struggle not only individually but as a movement to keep track of what's going on so that was just a comment about the prayer meeting so we're back in the great controversy we've seen 343 paragraph 2 then paragraph 3 then the next page 344 paragraph 1 we see what we saw mention of of the servants and then she says even the prophets who had special illumination they too didn't understand things very well so we made a comment on that that there are different types of servants essentially you could say these two types of servants two types of prophets Peter mentions this in first Peter one chapter sorry first Peter chapter 1 verses 10 to 12 and not only do these prophets not fully comprehend the import of the revelations who else did we observe that didn't really understand the full import of things mr. taste the angel is remembered last part of verse 12 just I'll read it to remind us it's not so clear perhaps in the King James but if you go to a revised version it becomes a lot clearer how they read it and they're pretty consistent in their interpretation which things the last part of 12 which things the angels desire to look into so it seems pretty benign when when it's when it's there but if you go to a you know a literal version or a revised version it seems to it says the same thing where the inferences is a lot stronger and it says essentially even the Angels want to peer into these things given the idea that they're not able to peer into them until they're being explained so I think that's an important concept for us to understand so don't believe I'm not going to ask everybody agrees because I don't want to go over the study and there someone's got a strong objection to it so if there's a level of agreement the point that I think he's important to see there I'll give it through a couple of versions I'm gonna read verse 12 to whom it was revealed they're not to themselves but to us they ministered the same things so this is those prophets in the past which now were announced to you by those having preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from heaven that's the first part of 12 so what I'm saying is three groups there's the prophets of the past there's the servants of the present and then there's you but the US and the servants today are explaining the words of the prophets to the people to the US two groups of people living today one group from the past generations the people in the past generations of the prophets today there are people who are explaining what those prophecies mean to you then if everybody is that how everybody's reading that and the last part into which angels long to look into so the angels are also longing to look into these statements that the prophets of the of old were making which are now being explained today so I'll read it from another version I'm going to read loss or array diverse but they were told that they were serving you not themselves it almost sounds like a spirit prophecy quote they spoke more for us than their own generation they preached to you by the power of the Holy Spirit who was sent from heaven and their message was only for you even though angels would like to know more about it just give one more revised version it was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preach the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long long to look so the angels are longing to look into these things just as much as we are and and I think there's it's an illusion it's a statement that angels don't fully comprehend the things just like we don't fully comprehend the things until they're explained to them so hold on to that thought because it's an important concept coming back to GCE angels you go to first Timothy 4 but the quote is ms/ms if you've got a regular cd-rom it won't be in there because ms means a manuscript which was not released as opposed to mr unless you have the unpublished writings data file so the Bible if you go to first Timothy 4 and it's going to be under arrest Peter 1 versus 1 and 12 it says the incarnation a painful process okay I'm just gonna get on my laptop because you might not all have a Study Bible so it's a mess 29 1899 okay so portions of this are in 5 BC 7 BC and Manuscript 6m are are safe if it's in the publish right engine in a bit or summer can check the work of redemption is called a mystery and it is indeed the mystery by which everlasting righteousness is brought to all who believe the race in consequence of sin was @m nity with God Christ that an infinite cost by a painful process mysterious to angels as well as two men assumed humanity hiding his divinity laying aside his glory he was born a baby in Bethlehem in human flesh he lived the law of God that he might condemn sin in the flesh and bear witness to heavenly intelligences that the law was ordained to life and to ensure the happiness peace and internal and eternal good for all who obey but the same infinite sacrifice that is life to those who believe is a testimony of condemnation to the disobedient speaking death not life say what I was picking up already so quickly I miss that but no whiz it the beginning no middle no absolutely to run a quarter away miss Crowe same Christ and infinite cost by painful process mysterious to angels as well as to me what's the implications of this not just this passage but this concept as well well in that same pass you've read it referring to heavenly intelligences and obviously this whole thing cent had never occurred before and so this whole plan of redemption everything that's happening as its unfolding the whole universe is learning from it and is able to glean things that they didn't understand her or didn't know before and obviously once they see it happen then and there they're learning they're learning to pull alongside of us actually okay she's totally for me I think if the Angels I think you've been doing this message and I think that there's a possibility that the angels are very the message to us if they don't even fully comprehend that's right we go online right that I could be like okay for the loudest to be the lead in sentence of the quote we just read says the work of redemption it's called a mystery what we've been reading in great controversy is in direct application to the work of redemption but it has to do with men giving a message and angels bringing that message so it's a mystery okay what what can be reading okay aunt you don't know angels don't know what's happening it's the great controversy and Bob said the and then if you said these words or this phrase the heavenly allegiances another Tyler what I don't what's the question I don't know what the question is I know at least when we bring in the great controversy that idea it's there's a couple things that I'm thinking of one it's interesting because in the case of angels there's no sin problem there's no traditions they're holding on to and yet they still have to learn things you know they don't have infinite knowledge on the whole biblical history they've seen problems with angels I mean the ones who have they haven't sinned you know they're I don't think there's very very controversy well no I mean the good angels I don't know yeah but your clue what we're in the great controversy yeah and even a youth out there what's going on peeping and I was saying that I just wanted hope you see my point that's the great controversy who's fighting against whom it's at all levels angels fight angels you know angels fight angels and this fight is now a proxy war here on earth and when you're fighting with your enemy you're supposed to go into meetings aren't you and have strategic planning meetings I can't remember the page if you go to Testaments of church volume 1 around page 108 I can't remember what the chapter is you'll see that Satan has a strategic planning meeting with his agent with these with these angels for what purpose that's where the true humanity are the best way to make them not humanity well yeah yeah actually together yes he's going to do it really probably attack so he's going to take you've anything divided into two groups the world in the church he has a plan he meets on how to deal with both groups it's quite interesting when you read that so if angels don't even know what's going on what's that saying why is it oh it's a hopeful message and hopefully when I'm at home struggling with concepts I know that there's hope first of all just as an example when Jesus took on humanity the angels were told in that passage state didn't Dave looking at that like the mystery how did this even happen and then when it were told in desire of Ages and when Christ went to the cross it wasn't until Christ actually went to the cross that the day the good angels realized what what Satan really was doing because prior to that they didn't understand the fully you know what what Lucifer or Satan was doing even at that point it wasn't it's I think the word is the mask was torn off and so they could realize what his true purposes were and that they weren't good and that was at the cross okay I'm not going down that road is that always true we're kind of similar go wrong with saying we kind of get a nice maybe it's a bad way to say if we have a nice out it's like angels can't understand that how we gonna understand it if you remember the story be like yeah this many stories about Elijah can't remember where it's found I remember even the king I think he's a Syrian King they're trying to make war against the king of Israel and every time they are in their meeting and make some strategic plan to will you know if he's going down some road they'll say well hijacking what happened to their plans get revealed to Elijah and then he says someone's in our planning meetings we've got we've got a double agent a spy and we know what's going on and then someone says there's no spies in your camp the problem is Elijah is there not literally and he knows everything that we're doing so you can just warn the king of Israel all of our plans and they said okay I meet he's really silly let's have another meeting and we'll do a meeting to try and get Elijah like he could heard the first meeting he can't hear the second one is crazy when you think about it the children's story so you know and then they all go blind so we're familiar with that story we're doing all these meetings aren't we and who's listening to these meetings oh boy evil angels why they listening for mess with us mess of the players not only that they don't understand me they don't understand that I neither you think about that angels don't understand the plans until they've been revealed this is one of the reasons why not only it's not just our human frailty that we can't learn everything up front God has to give it piecemeal because we've got an enemy who's eavesdropping into all of our conversations because this war is about what over Tyler it's an information war website all that you notice sister olive a what I gathered affirmative the importance of prayer in that if we asked for more information jurors are to communicate to us the needed information right so if we ask more than we would receive more and they would be able to understand more good ones I'm worried about the bad ones unless that's where you were going then what you know like we were saying if the if the Angels don't know then how much more but I look at it in my concept that we are the ones that hinder the Angels from not more good cuz they're our enemies I'm talking a good one I'm interested in the great controversy it's a controversy wouldn't for in place the equal angels don't know what they're doing and if you don't know what your enemies doing you have to second guess what they do it and sometimes leave your second guess what happens right you're wrong you're wrong and if they weren't wrong some of the time we'd be in trouble truly trouble is that oh I Jesus but his term on the chart I'm saying that's at least one reason so reason we never know you consider because we always talk about the human agent I've seen some time behind this respectively Satan you know the game playing really well but he went the great controversy long people wheeze and he studied the Bible really well and so we think well he can work it all out we know we have to remember even though we have this God angels men we also have this God Holy Spirit men we commented on that and the Angels you know are giving all this these words these words messages were given and we can you just write them down angels directed the mind of and William Miller precisely the holy spirit that you get illumination of what these things mean and Satan can read the same words that we read it doesn't mean he understands them just like we don't understand them we need to help the Holy Spirit to understand what's going on and if it wasn't measured out we might not fare so well not making it I'm not doing anything with I just want to put that in a record because it's about information this warfare is the information warfare here use the excuses because the Angels can't understand therefore renounce that's not a sin no that's not the point I want to make which is I think with brother Tyler saying needs now we've got a good excuse but I think you're saying tongue-in-cheek what I'm saying is no just on that point it's what sister olivine says we're supposed to pray more we supposed to beg him God to instruct us what's going on regardless of how difficult it is all valid points don't think I wanted to us to see is in the great controversy no one understands what's going on no matter how exhausted you are it has to be through God that these things are meted out you know it's you know there's these battle plans being drawn up and it's kind of like it's all one-sided God's got all the cards and Satan still trying to mess around it's crazy sound to question yeah I mean we've got this excuse that you know it's we're human beings angels couldn't even understand it so how much could we understand but it's the work of the Holy Spirit that's really been he's got that content you just brought us then we're we're told that it's the eye salve that allows us to comprehend in those evil angels they'll never have that I slap you so as we progress further down the line we'll get more understanding and they will be able to outsmart them based on the Holy Spirit filling our our lives is that the way it would work because I can only change so much but they keep pace with us how can make it how can you get full understanding without that I thought because when you explain what that line means uh-huh they say aha yes what one sister pollination is that they don't we have a we will we even the lines give us an upper hand yeah in that they can't look fully in the purposes of God because they don't have the I saw that we do so it's like you're fighting with those night-vision goggles we have the goggles that they don't let me suggest is the ceiling is an intellectual and spiritual settling into the truth they can settle into the truth intellectually just as much as we can and that intellectual settling into truth is not human capability it's driven by the holy spirit as much as it is clever people they can enter into that just as much as we can but what they can't enter into is the experience they can't have it can't produce the effect we mentioned about the movements which with the way marks which is the cause and the effect is an experience that the church has these truths that are being laid out on the line the reason we're looking at it the reason it's given is to produce a positive experience in us whatever producing them will be a negative experience but I think that the intellectual bit they can keep pace with us and they could they'll they'll understand it just as much as we do and the implications of all of that but what they won't have is the experience of salvation that's associated so they won't get the benefit of that but intellectually they'll they'll say our so that's what that means now we get it like a great control undertaking where we are filled the servant of the Lord says that Satan sees that evil angels have doubled over that company but they don't know it so they could only infer what they didn't know so like the war what had happened so that's what and why this happened my way it's happening go get cleaned up they only know what it was what's gonna happen but they don't know something until they happen and I'm saying how they know when those things are happening because we'll know birthdate oh yeah I'd like to throw a spanner in the works here good but not be that well this is just a question because Satan knows to some degree the prophecies right he studied them so why then would he fall into the trap of let's say having Jesus crucified at the right time to fulfill the prophecy why doesn't he choose at some other time why you'll fall in that why don't we why why do we always fall into the traps well I don't know because we're falling into the trap over over expert hunter no one can beat God but you know you can't beat God if you haven't you know a frank discussion about it yeah but you think you can delusion well say it that way you think you can you know however you're going to express that for each individual human you persuade yourself it'll be okay you know causing effect you know God says if you eat that food you shall surely die because cake is not good for you and we think well one piece of cake won't do us any harm you know why do we follow those thought processes why would we be so foolish to do that Satan is just as foolish as we are Angels is just as weak as we are they're not sort of some know not who it's not superhuman it's just weak and frail so things just can't help himself even though he knows even though he knows ok there's this prophecy 490 years and if I don't do anything then you know the prophecies not gonna be fulfilled but he he just thinks that he can be God somehow he's like it it's like a lion being drawn into a lair it is too weak and dumb to work it how that he's about to die even though he can sense something's going wrong you think I mean animals have got sixth sense humans have got an equal to quit sick things but you know we know stuff that there's something funny going and we still go for it we still get drawn in and trapped it's a mystery I don't know brother Bob brother Tyler just one one element of the great controversy that we haven't quite hit on is that we know that that when the great country started it was started in heaven we know that that there was a time that all the angels had an opportunity to make a decision to be a witch site they were gonna be on and so the evil angels their probation is already closed Satan's probations are really close and the only reason why they haven't been destroyed because the rest of the universe doesn't understand and if God just destroyed them then it would look like some arbitrary thing that kind of doing and so he has to allow them to continue that it's during a period of time when human beings have their probation open so I mean I'm just bringing that up as an element because that that also ties in I believe with with the strategies akkad using with how he meters out the information that's needed you know to work this whole thing out because he knows how to work it out perfectly honey I don't know the background of what I'm about to say so it might just be an ignorance but desert is there a possibility that Satan had a misunderstanding of similar to the disciples about what Christ was supposed to do when he came so he thought by killing Christ he would for Christ plans for him for himself but in reality he actually fulfilled the plans you know like you're saying happen by it's addenda but didn't mean to what he misunderstood what Christ was there to do not that he knew and then he just kind of fell into it but he actually had miss a missing information he said we get this concept that he can't do that because he can read we read exactly what he reads and some humans are lot cleverer than other humans and these are clever ones still get it all wrong you we've got we've got theologians not just in our church but across you know Christianity who are far cleverer than us and they can't you know see simple things that we can because they just don't accept it so you know cleverness you know superiority of intellect isn't the earth isn't a savior isn't he's not going to sort things out for us did there are other elements besides that Sita's mother strategy was to rush through Christ and get him to just off the cross and not look to the cross he wanted him to choose otherwise that's what Lucifer sorry Judas does he pushes and pushes and pushes he says if I push him into a corner he'll break and then when Jesus says like a take me then Judas realized he hasn't worked yeah and he realizes he's too late now so coming back to our passage even prophets who were favoured with the special illumination this tree thought for paragraph one did not fully comprehend the import of the revelations committed to them the meaning was to be unfolding from age to age as the people of God should need the instruction therein contained so you've got a handout which is called what is a prophet so we're going to read some of these passages from here actually the Apostles page 452 paragraph 2 as Paul spoke of what he knew and testified of what he had seen concerning Jesus of Nazareth as the hope of Israel those who are honestly seeking for truth were convinced upon some minds at least his words made an impression that was never effaced but others stubbornly refused to accept the plain testimony of the scriptures even when presented to them by one who had the special illumination of the Holy Spirit they could not refute his arguments but they refused to accept his conclusions so I'm not gonna really comment on these unless someone has a comment or wants to say something I don't if it comes out in black and white but I've highlighted the special illumination of the Holy Spirit the next one life sketches from the life of Paul L P 277 paragraph 2 some of Paul's hearers eagerly received the truth but others stubbornly refused to be convinced the Testament of the Scriptures was presented before them by one who was their equal in learning and their superior in mental power and who had the special illumination of the Holy Spirit they could not refute his arguments but refused to accept his conclusions the prophecies which the rabbi's themselves applied to Christ for a great annoyance to these opposing Jews for the Apostle showed that the fulfillment of these very prophecies required them to accept of Christ so it's very similar to the passage we read before but there's some extra bits and pieces in it and I like this one because basically what what from what I understand that she's saying is that they're all using the same prophecies and when you see the same prophecies he's saying well I believe the same prophecy that you do and I'm gonna explaining it was fulfilled in this event and you were alive when this event happened how do you explain what that prophecy is if not if it wasn't fulfilled then how was it fulfilled that's what I'm understanding that last part the prophecies which the rabbi's themselves applied to Christ were great annoying annoyance to these Jews so the Apostle showed that the fulfillment of these very prophecies required them to accept Christ and she's we're listening in this example in the original reason it's not bullet pointed I've bullet pointed it he's humble entry into Jerusalem so this is Paul's arguments by the way when you said when you see what his arguments are you'll see how really really simple they are I mean these are not complex sophisticated arguments but it takes someone who has superior mental power to say to the people this Old Testament prophecy which we all agree it was fulfilled when he's hung with his humble entry into Jerusalem so he's humble entry into Jerusalem is what what is that not quite the triumphal entry yeah so this is no prospect triumphal entry and I mean how much superior mental power does it take to work that out I mean we just read it and we listen children's stories today every child knows that that the Old Testament prophecy got fulfilled in here in the triumphal entry and and Paul who was equally learning and has superior mental power and special lumely takes all of that to tell them that what just happened is is a fulfillment of that prophecy and they say no we don't believe that so I think just find that interesting it takes all this strong mental power now I find the same thing in our own movement and if you go back and we say 9/11 even children know that in our movement now but at the time I'm suggesting it took strong mental powers to work all of that out and to argue or if we say the United States is the glorious land I mean it's patently obvious really if you think about it but when you go back ten years ago it was not Payton the obvious and it took strong mental powers to be able to defend and argue these points and you know get through a debate it was not that easy so you know afterwards things look really easy but in the when you're there they're not that easy and um just on that term early writings passage that we don't we know what things are there there are things that it takes strong mental powers to work out I think but once they're laid out everyone can say oh yeah do you know that looks good pretty obvious the loud cry is a separate way mark to the Sunday law no we can see that pretty clearly now but for a long while people wouldn't teach that it wasn't that clear it took strong mental powers to you know to work those things out anyway he's humble entry into Jerusalem his rejection by his own people the treachery of Judas the poetry son paid for his betrayal his death as a malefactor even the bitter stupefying drafts offered him in his dying agony the Lots cast upon his garments his victory over death and the grave by the resurrection on the third day his final exaltation on the right hand of God all these were in direct fulfillment of the words of the prophets but the more conclusive the arguments presented the more determined were the Jews in their opposition frenzied with malice they reiterated their assertions that Jesus of Nazareth was a deceiver the reason why I bullet pointed this is because you know all of us can say that he's relatively straightforward all you'd need is either a concordance or a book with a central column and it would just directly to this you could probably do this study in 20 minutes between us we could probably do it in half that time this were one two three four five six seven eight nine ten this ten references here to Old Testament prophecies and between us we could we could get that really quickly this is essentially pulled ministry this is he said he just goes around places and he says okay I've got this mug I've got my my notes and I've gone I'm gonna talk you about ten events that happened a few years ago and I'll show you the prophecies and that's my argument that we're in a time period when these things are being fulfilled I mean how easy is that and we've panic about going to the church saying how we ever going to teach the twenty five twenty or all these things it's too complicated and how we're going to prove it it's not complicated and it's not difficult there aren't that many points in our message for people to accept all you need to do and you could do it on two pieces of paper let's take our message bullet point it in he's got ten points here it's not that difficult we make it difficult because we're scared we're scared what if they all asked is his complicated question and all he says is by the way Danny level forty to forty-five we'll look at verse 40 verse forty is the time at the end 1798 1989 it's not difficult to see you can see France and the papacy you can see Russia and the United States is easy we'll show you that ships and chariots is economic and military strength easy who wouldn't accept that but it took great mental powers to tease all of that out we are fearful because we're scared of what people will do to us and Paul was not scared because he had a great belief in this and you can do that with every single one of our truths it's not difficult to portray it in a simple fashion and I want us to see that just in this the poetry some Patriots betrayal thirty pieces of silver it sees it you know when you when you read the thirty pieces of silver or any of these Old Testament prophecy you think what does that mean Paul just says this is what that meant this is how you read and the people who accept will accept and the people who won't accept won't accept what we want to do is you know produce a 20-page document understand it and say you need to understand it at that level before you can come into our movement and it doesn't work that way it really is straightforward and we should not only try to simplify our message for other people but we should recognize that it isn't that difficult okay so that I like that if anybody's got any comments on that review and Herald December 799 paragraph 17 as Paul spoke of what he knew and testified of what he had seen concerning Jesus of Nazareth as the hope of Israel 2-dose who were honestly seeking the secret truth as Paul spoke of what he knew and testified of what he had seen concerning Jesus of Nazareth as the hope of Israel those who are honestly seeking the truth were convinced upon some Minds at least his words made an impression which was never replaced but other stubbornly refused to accept the plain testimony of the scriptures even when presented to them by one who had the special illumination of the Spirit of the Holy Spirit they could not refute his arguments but they refused to accept his conclusions actually I think that's identical it's nearly identical there's a couple of words that are slightly different that's why introduced that so I didn't really need to read that this is the problem is not about iron man because they were listening from one that had special rumination of the Holy Spirit and even though they didn't accept these people whatsapp was to go for me you know people get concerned you know I thought people like to say I'd only teach you anymore because I don't know anything you know you just humiliated me or or I feel embarrassed how did we all get into this movement we were all sort we old people say we were all duped you know tricked into this but think about it what arguments were being given to you for you to accept come when you think about the arguments today they're pretty sophisticated now but before they weren't they were just like saying this Bible verse for this project this is how you read it the latter rain is before the Sunday law and nobody ever said hold on a minute go to the great controversy and it isn't which all seem to accept these things really readily perhaps too readily and now we are here today for the on board so I agree with that argument brother Tyler so this is where it talks about at the end at the time we're living that people get brought before courts and there may or may not be something we'll get brought before courts and then realize that or so for different people and they realize what they don't know you know that they don't actually understand the you know every single point of their favor so at one level here are you making the argument of well it's really simple you know there's just 10/10 bullet points you know no those and basically and you can even start presenting your good you know but on another level she says we have to know every single point of our faith because you're gonna get you know criticized about everything you believe is that just we'll follow it through and you just just know the ten bullet points you see yeah we've got a secret weapon the Holy Spirit you bring it to our remembrance if you've done your studies before the blind nine I mean he hasn't even done in these studies and all he's doing is testifying so yeah I the point is true you know we have to really do understand our message and there's a lot to understand in order to simplify it in bullet point you really need to understand yes we're hoping to school and the best teachers are the ones who can take a complex subject chemistry and make it simple and interesting it's not the people you know you go to it you go to a call it an Ivy League school here you go to a top private school and you know dose some of those people those teachers that come from top schools it doesn't make them a good teacher just cuz they've got those qualification then they come from really good institution in the UK you know you get teachers from Cambridge or Oxford who teach at private schools it doesn't make them the best teachers sometimes they don't teach their subjects too well review and Herald March 25th 1890 paragraph one two five I haven't focused on this emphasis as we've gone through our at this semester but it's eighteen ninety sorts the first thing we should be picking up sorry 1888 so the context of this is the 1888 messager one is to keep that in mind as we read through because if you if you don't do that because normally I wouldn't mention it I'd read the passage ask the question and and I know people get tripped up on that and then say actually let's go back and say when this is what what the context of this passage is and then ask the question them and people become grounded again so when we pre warned you as Jesus was on his way to get so many with his disciples he pointed them to a vine that was grained by the way the vine was greatly admired by the Jews and Jesus said to his disciples I am The True Vine and my father is a husbandmen every branch in me that beareth NOT fruit he taketh away here is a truth for us to study every branch in me that beareth NOT fruit he taketh away we are now we now have an opportunity to be fruit bearing branches of the true vine but if we are careless and indifferent what will be our condition we should be fruitless we should be taken away we can do nothing without Christ we shall have no sap or nourishment except as we can get it from the Living vine no branch can bear fruit except through a connection with Christ so we can understand this both in our experience bro so I want to make the point also intellectually you have to have this connection with Christ who actually understands it understanding it intellectually now we can go a certain distance just by pure human mental vigour or strength you can work things out you know grammar we've done a lot of grammar in our class and you know the question is when we read safe we read Ezekiel 21 27 GQ 21 27 now we all came up with different answers why were we coming up with it that's the passage that says I overturn overturn overturn why we coming up with different answers is because half has got the Holy Spirit and half of us down so when we come up with the right answer at the end I can point my finger and say ah you didn't have the Holy Spirit so you must be foolish merging can we do that so how comes we're getting it wrong and some of us are getting it right that's right educational training mental capability we can see things we can understand grammar we're focus we pay attention we follow the rules if I just say that we followed the rules better than our neighbor not law cases in some cases it depends on how much experience you have with actually studying the Bible is very prophecy as well it's the more breadth of understand you have a law somewhere you can draw from practice makes perfect yeah human endeavor so you've been you've been studying the Scriptures for twenty years I agree sometimes that's that's true but you know for me what I find it frightening is I'm in a class and I'm teaching here and there's a sister who's been in this movement for two years and publicly humiliates me I'm reading this passage and I'm saying okay you this means this and she'll say that's the direct opposite I'll take you where did you get that from how can she read that better than me and it's not about me and her or ever but and and I only say that because it's real life example more than once so it agree you know practice doesn't make perfect but I've seen it so many times where it's so easy even with all of that history that you can just make simple mistakes how struggling take it how is she how are they reading that I'd have to go back and have to pray and study and nothing yep I'm wrong I'm wrong I got it I don't mind you know the embarrassment of that I'm not making that point but it buddy ease people some people are just clever okay so normally we'd pick this up from experience but also I want to say that is the intellectual as well one of the great troubles with us has been that we have looked upon men as infallible but no matter how high a position a man may hold it is no reason that he should be looked upon as incapable of making mistakes the Lord may have given him a work to do but unless Christ abides with him continually unless he abides in Christ without a moment separate raishin he will make mistakes and fall into error okay so before I'd read a passage like this if we had had time what I would have normally have done he's taking us back out of not even Gontier would have gone to say like early writings and laid out a timeline we would have laid out a line of the progression of God's dealings with men right back from 1798 and onwards and you can do that relatively simply by running through the earlier early writings but because it's a only short trimester we're not doing that so I just want to say that as one thing so it becomes difficult initially to put this in a framework without having some consideration of things as we go along because what we want to understand is who the men that she's talking about remember I pre warned you yeah it's normally I'd asked the question about who these infallible men and and see what people just people's thoughts are which I'm going to do in a second but you can see here third sentence the Lord it's the last entity read the Lord may have given him a work to do but unless Christ abide with him continually so the abiding in Christ is talking about the first paragraph yeah and normally when we talk about abiding in Christ and bearing fruits what fruit are we talking about love joy peace you know that you're a nice person grieve with that that's how we almost always use that idea but look how she's using it the Lord may have given her work to do but unless Christ abides in him continually which means if Christ abides in you what will you bear fruit unless your boys in Christ without a moment's separation he will make mistakes and fall into error now I'm arguing what is the mistake that he's falling into like so these going to commit adultery or start lying and cheating I don't think so I think its doctrinal mistakes that she's addressing here for okay with that so before we read on who are the men that are infallible and they're picking up infallible because we talked we spoke about men are special illumination the servants who are prophets who the men that are infallible just tell me who the men are that's what I would brother James name leadership leadership servants the profit okay okay let me rephrase my question I want to put on a lie who the men this is before we need chasing the junk on so so this is Jones and Waggoner so give me a I want to put a bit I want to put dispensation one put some way marks if you need you put way back here and you would put eighty I get here on it well this is a ninety so I would put it with the first part 1888 in this one if we're reading that out we might be okay 8090 anyone else so you want to put tell me fun if I jump the gun are you saying that looking 70 98 grade 2014 fat were you the mate yeah okay we'll move off no we need more thoughts one of the great troubles with us has been that we have looked upon men as infallible so we know we could dig into this deeper to say who that us is who so what we read on but it's men tumors if men do make mistakes and fall into error it is no reason that we should we draw our confidence from them for God alone is infallible so as you said it's not even their mistake and so it's not even there for is that right it's not their fault but if men do make mistakes are falling to area it is no reason that we should we draw our confidence from them who agrees with that I'm it's this white statement so we're gonna say okay we agree if your arm locks humbly into it but who agrees who disagrees with that she's had since the robbery you disagree why you disagree because of the test that the test of a profit to the longer testimony if they speak not according to the swear there's no - I mean that seems to contradict that concept today I lived like that got picked up on the mic I'm sorry this I can't pick up on the mic a can you speak you're going to that wall you to the line to the testimony of you not going to fight sister Brittany this is the sentence before say that it's their fault the sentence before okay so explain well the sentence after I don't remember who said or if it was just being mentioned that it's potentially not their fault and I'm saying the sentence before is kind of saying that it is their fault that they fall in there gotcha question hey from these men these are made mistakes that falling into error we do have confidence in them yes and know why the know you test everything still you wouldn't just take it as gospel you test it but you still have a certain amount of trust that they're God's agent so yes because they got agents to kazi's you have some evidence they selectively it and no because each I've got happier you check white hat they worried because he got two hats the guys profit hat on today you take it to the Lord the testimony but fits anything yet okay so let me read this to you then this is what sister Brittany read she did she seemed reference the Lord may have given him a work to do but unless Christ abides with him continually unless he abides with Christ without a moment separation he will make mistakes and fall into error and you're got confidence in him he's made mistakes has he made mistakes separated in fact see you that confidence in someone who separate themselves from Christ we don't believe in people and colony okay I'll go against that by the day when I when I look at that sentence we should not withdraw confidence from them I think of people like Jones and Kellogg God led both of those people that he gave them I guess lots of truth you would say but the end of their life they went the wrong direction well I know people that won't read or listen to anything that came from either of them just because they fell away but it's just because that happened doesn't mean that what God gave them wasn't true okay so if I understand what you're saying you have confidence in the people when they're on a good day but not when on a bad day he quite said like that but and I probably twist your words but is that what I can take from what you say you don't throw out the baby with the bath or we don't throw em all out you say on a good day with everybody so teaching truth before the bad day then or you got confidence in them even on a bad day because it's kind of similar to what is the test but it's like if it is I think having I don't know okay what's it the text I don't think it necessarily or it comes down to abiding when it's doctrine on we read that they don't understand the message in all its bearings and I don't think that comes down they symbolize sin I don't think that sin if they don't understand it in all its bearings and if you don't like this down there is you're not necessarily going to teach it completely okay so I'm gonna I'm gonna come back into you and I'm gonna say I'm not reading in all of its bearings I'm just reading from a specific passage in this specific passage it says the reason they fell into error was because they stopped following Christ now there's another bearing there's another perspective which says they're just humans you know humans just make mistakes because that's how things work when you're coming back from Emmaus to Jerusalem with this great joyous news what are these men doing they're stumbling so just in that parable even though you've got the truth you can still stumble because you're human we should think he's what you're saying so that's one direction to look at if I can use the word bearing in that context but in this direction in this bearing she's making a specific point and in this bearing would you trust the people because they've decked they've cut loose from Christ haven't they sister Brittany so how would this be applied Miller because if the people at that time had accepted Miller's point of view I don't think they would have accepted afterwards wait a second okay so you're questioning if it's the middle right line basically I'm just wondering how you apply this concept to my oh you do yes I'm saying you all said yo so you're arguing on that bottom line that this is another right line yeah yeah okay so we read on we must have the truth abiding in our heart we must draw nigh to God continually for we shall have the powers of darkness to me just as long as time shall last we shall have to battle with the enemy of our souls until the coming of the Lord if you're willing to allow me to direct this in this focused way so I accept that people make mistakes and people can sin and get up again and we should still have confidence in these selected servants so I'm not arguing that I agree with the point that says the test is made but in this perspective these men have made mistakes these people of position because in the net in the second sentence of the paragraph but no matter how higher position a person may hold it is no reason that he should look upon he should be looked upon as incapable of making mistakes so it's talking about humanity just because someone so good can't make mistakes but now but then she shifts it and talks about the surviving in Christ's experience so if we just hold on to that thought we must have the truth abiding in our hearts we must draw nigh to God continually for we shall have the powers of darkness to me just as long as time shall last we shall have to battle with the enemy of our souls until the coming of the Lord so what is this enemy trying to do so they try to get you to make mistakes and they will succeed if you're not listening or abiding to Christ so if this is an intellectual argument about doctors is not like falling into sin right then if you're not abiding in Christ you're gonna start making mistakes about the message that you're supposed to be delivering it's just when you think about the implications that it starts looking really ugly when you start putting names to this thing so do we have to qualify what the error is because is this like a is this any error you know you give us an example a minute ago where you said you were we were made a fool of for black without a word by someone who read a passage better than you was that is that error you know cuz could we say all Parminder must have been in separated from Christ at that point because he read the passage wrong or are we talking about like like fully fleshed kind of thing yet which would be a much higher level of error because it gets scary if it's lower level that example it was cuz I'm not good at grammar and we say this and I'm a Candace reader but is that is that a few minute data what do you mean that's true this so it's not what she's right now I don't think so so what can we just at least give an example is it what it feel like Boyet flash or something something or some graver kind of signal neglect okay first angels message they just mess the whole thing up wasn't that Rama now there's no grandma that was making it get the sanctuary naked a shifty potato isn't it that lots of the mistakes we have made is because we're trying to sort out something for the first time I mean in trying to sort something out you're going to make mistakes because you have you know misconceptions but we have to at some point sort it out sufficiently so that it's maybe not virtually free of every you know mistake but yeah I understand what I'm saying in that we've made mistakes along the way because things are being unfolded that I mean they're not even some of them aren't even even some of the mistakes we made actually have taught us things some of the mistakes are necessary in order to to make things you know I talked about you don't know you're the key that you have to make mistakes yet they crack an egg to make the song even my uncle never wants us to do that he wanted us to understand something problem so we should have just understood this whole thing the first time we looked at it I'm not that concept just the last bit is that not just recently I was fine with that mistakes are necessary I'm not convincing the fact is necessary on any level I guess it depends but sometimes the mistakes lead to they don't we grow yeah I know what talks about growing from on this day I accept that but I just kind of like it so much because I necessary so we shouldn't have we should we should be able to to go from plain to fate without making these mistakes you know if if we were abiding in God perfectly if there was no sinful I I don't want to get I don't want go to extreme because sometimes they say that's holy flesh room here if I pray hard enough I can never make a mistake but the problem is I have a bad education and that doesn't easily get corrected just because I've got the Holy Spirit you know the Holy Spirit can give me a prophecy and I could relate it but it doesn't mean you know I'm fully clear that you see that you know White's writings G White's experienced some views and she has to go corrected because people don't even understand what she's saying she says when I said the time of trouble actually I really mean the time of trouble I make something else and so sometime later she's going to get a team of editors and those editors are highly skilled people who understand grammar and they're going to make sure that everything gets sorted out so when you get to the great controversy and you've got thousands of people poring over this book it's really hard to pick flaws in what's he's saying or misunderstanding because you know actually that she grows you know grandma I get that but she's not the most educated person you know sometimes we make the salt with this whole argument that Ellen White was uneducated I think third grader and look at these great books that she produced she had a lot of help it just though was virtually written word for word by her originally so there wasn't a lot of editing done in that book so by the time she's writing some of the later books her grammar has improved a great deal her education has I'm totally fine with improvement I read the book and read reading there I'm saying that's like but that's not what she's talking about no she's not talking about it here I don't think you're talking about it we are a heaven we are studying the Bible with Christ and we open some passage and he has something do you think everybody's gonna answer as a choir the same answer all of that it's a rhetorical question that's what you're thinking no I don't think that man's gonna answer the same okay it was rhetorical I agree with ya it's exactly like I don't think it is that a mistake that's before you we know we're not gonna when we get to heaven that's what two thousand years a couple of years Luther's gonna come up and we're gonna say what does that Bible verse mean he's clueless there's some Bible books that he just rejects he says that shouldn't even be in the Bible so of course we all can oh look at this the same this is wrong way you might you taught a few years trimester the classes in heaven will look similar to this I think so it's necessary so it's not a mistake to misunderstand something No so it's our humanity we're still gonna be human women get to heaven they were weak if you didn't get if you don't have a good education here on earth you won't have a good one there and there's there's a number of things to consider also talents you know we've all got different talents because the genetic gene gene pool with weight we had wearing not only educate we're having heritage issues to deal with some people got one talent some people have got five talents and some things you know when we talk about gifts Adonis to talk to digress one gives some greeting some gifts are considered gifts that are endowed to us by the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues other ones we're born with innate ability you get some people who know you could say they were a born leader or they were a born teacher or you know they since they were a little boy they've always been really helpful and this other boy or these other girls been really stubborn they just think that we're born with some of these and stubbornness is not negative it's not something I didn't mean it in a bad way because it's a talent to be stubborn so this this and I think that's the point the brother did was making if I picked up what he was trying to say gifts are not just Holy Spirit and ask divine in human talents or gifts are also things that we're born with this human weakness this human frailty that we do make mistakes just because we're human but I don't think that's what's been referred to in this context sister Brittany so how do you very carefully and I don't mean that facetiously I mean it really that's what we have to be really careful and I think that's the point that brother Theodore was trying to make there in real life the distinction between human frailty and and we'll use the word rebellion or saying I don't want Christ to abide with me so I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna do my own thing the discrimination between those two things is not that easy to observe it's not that easy to see all we can see is the the results of that and the results never look good whether it's me reading the verse wrong or it's me saying I'm not even connected with the Holy Spirit and I'm bound to come up with silly things the results is always never good but for you to discriminate between them I don't think is that easy they comes they come to certain points certain inflection points we call them turning points where we can see that this is not human weakness this is God God's people not listening to him now there are a couple in our movement and there are certain I mean there are obvious ones in the middle right movement and whatever this story's about this is dealing with that one this is not human weakness that's going to create this issue that we're reading about in the review and Herald she's already setting us up to say whatever is happening is because of rebellion not because of human weakness so maybe I'll answer your question in a direct way like this desire of Ages chapter 50 I think it's around page 455 we've mentioned this before it's a passage that I like what she's going to do is there's three groups there it's going to be one person another one and then you and you're thinking who's speaking for God and who isn't how were we supposed to know when she tells you really simply you are going to be able to discern who speaks for God and who doesn't that this person is abiding in Christ but they're still human this person is not abiding the Christ and they still human human beings trip up but they have foibles and frailty because we're human so they don't get everything correct but one of them is speaking for God one of them the message that they're bearing has divine credentials and the way you know is because you John chapter 10 you hear the voice of the Shepherd because you're a sheep and she says basically these people are converted those who are converted those who were sons and daughters of God they know who speaks for God and who doesn't and they're able to and maybe not in the moment they're able to sift through all the noise and they know who speaks for God and who doesn't and we mentioned that earlier I can't remember it was when it was of losing track of what class we raid making it earlier that all of us came into this movement how did we know which voice to listen to out of all the voices in Adventism because I'm saying we heard this voice we heard the voice of God speaking through a man and there were mistakes in that message and the question is what were those mistakes I think there were human frailties and human weaknesses but we were still able to do that and however bad you think about yourself cuz I think I thought last brother Daniel the question the other day and he was didn't want to art see they want to self-identify but just on this dynamic if you're in the right movement what is it telling you about yourself you've converted whatever that means the Holy Spirit must be with you and you must be with the Holy Spirit that you can hear the voice of God you must be one of his sheep however ugly you might think you look for you to be mean for you to be even to be able to make the right decision it's meaning you remain in that situation but to me that that's how lighting you discern the onus is upon you put it this passage is about rebellion she seen in regardless yeah I think she's trying to make a good point that's why that's how he's alive I brought that out because I'm thinking in real life who'd want to do that who'd want to have who could have confidence in someone who's not walking in Christ so I'll comment on that and then walk walk clothes class and though somebody has some questions she's struggling and then white she's got she's more than a prophet I don't think more than a prophet means that she's a very good profit or she's a super prophet or she's the best prophet sometimes we argue that more than a prophet means she has multiple roles when a profit goes to King like King Zedekiah he just says this is what you need to do you work it out it's your responsibility Jeremiah sister who's nothing to do with me and then why doesn't have that luxury because she's not just a prophet she's also in that context they're the Chaya if you can see the analogy she's a leader as much as she is a prophet so she's got multiple hats to borrow a phrase she just can't say as a prophet is this this and this she's also got responsibility because what she could do is wholesale go into whatever this dynamic is and say don't trust these people these men because they're infallible when they're leading you astray reject them she can't do that because she has other responsibilities and I think that's what the point she's trying to make there and I'll use one word that might help us organization so you know that some of the teachers in our movement are double agents I'll say frankly they are and depending on how clued up you are if you're a servant toward angels the third angel you know whom what they are maybe not the best analogy regardless of that we have other responsibilities we can't just throw everyone out because we see that there's problems with them because we have other responsibilities the other responsibilities is responsibility of an organized movement that needs to remain and not fragment into a thousand pieces I think that's what she's struggling with there okay so we're in them review and Herald March 25th 1890 we've seen that this is the millah right the 1888 period we've seen that you need to abide in Christ if you don't you're going to end up making mistakes and we're agreeing that these mistakes are doctrinal mistakes not moral mistakes so that's as far as we've got and we'll continue in their afternoon class Heavenly Father we thank you for your goodness your watch care and your loving kindness towards your people we ask them pray for a blessing upon us during our day's activities made the words that we've read the thoughts and ideas that they've generated be a blessing to us may we see how you're leading us individually as a movement not as we draw to an end in a few days this this part of our trimester this two-week class may each of us who are here asked ourselves the question why you brought us here what part are we to play in our activities here at this school we ask the guidance in direction so that we might hear your voice speaking to us and that we would in abiding in you not make mistakes be with us and bless us bless the food that we're to eat in Jesus's name we pray amen