(09-17-18) Afternoon - Great Controversy 343 - (ikrEzY1TZXw)

Overview

Video

Details

Publish Date: 9/18/2018
Speaker Name:
Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (09-17-18) Afternoon - Great Controversy 343-ikrEzY1TZXw
YouTube ID: ikrEzY1TZXw

References

Downloads

Download Video File
Download Audio File
Download Handout/Notes

Transcription

humming so where I wanted to go I'm done in Chapter 17 now all the not everything most of the things I wanted this to pick up from chapter 17 I've accomplished at least from my thinking so if we're okay and there's not any major questions I'd like to move on to a different chapter yeah okay so we're trying to track the first angels message and the next place we're going to see this message come up is chapter 19 so it's going to skip chapter 18 which is essentially the story or the biography of William Miller so we're in chapter 19 and if you have your notes you'll see that it begins on page 343 and the first mention of the first central message in that chapter is page 352 paragraph two so we're going to look at some verses in the chapter before we get to 35 - paragraph two three four three paragraph one the work of God in the earth presents from age to age a striking similarity in every great Reformation or religious movement the principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same the important movements of the present have their parallel in those of the past and the experience of the church in former ages has lessons of great value for our own time so we read 17m R which I think was second selected messages 103 I think we read I think I don't think I've got that to hand yep I do have it to hand I think one or two oats 102 was it set and selected meshes 102 yeah I'm just reading from 17 ml 1.3 it's the same passage historical events showing the direct fulfillment of prophecy were set before the people in the prophecy will see to be a figurative delineation of events leading down to the close of this Earth's history so connected to that passage that we read this one we just read from GC 343 allows us to take this line of prophecy and then do what we enjoy doing which is line upon line yeah so can someone just walk us through this paragraph sister Rachel it's saying that in every great Reformation or religious movement and this there's history it's similar God's thoughts working is everything the important events of the present we see in past history and in the experience of the church great lessons of value from every age or everything every age it's similar there are similarities in every history gangbang God's the way God deals with his with his people it doesn't change it's same for line to line or from history to history is going on now in the present time it has similarities from stuff that has been in the past or parallels and that anything that has happened in the past means some things for us is significant for our time in the day or age that which we live don't you think yeah by the Gregory history repeats okay so the purpose of past histories is to frost online problem I guess so we can avoid making mistakes in the past because that that would be the great value that we can get in them and also their gods well God's response to to human dear dealings and I different aren't getting correct Gregory that's a great grapes a thanks so prophecy is a line of events that lead to the close of the desert history we saw the historical events taking place upon this line show this the direct fulfillment of this prophecy and way of reapplying these historical events and making application sister Bromley we're eating from seconds the selected message gc3 for free take your coming I kept wondering why everybody's comments on something that I didn't see I'll give you a second to read a would you mind yeah I can utilize you work in the classes bro no mother Maria the principal arts dealings are consistent Ranade principles of God's dealings they are consistent and we can see that as it says in every religious our reform riffle in every Reformation our religious movement in ages past we can track his dealings with men right throughout history and also we are tiny we as we see his dealings with men in these different uh combs we can learn from them in making application in our time okay Danny the principles the movements and experience the first lady's a graceful principle principle graceful the movements and the experience of the church there are things that happen in the past and are you going to be repeated so principles equals measurements and y equals experience of the church make principle equals movement equal experience of the church this released there have been many refer missions religious movements that reflect how God works from each generation our period of time they have their application in the past and they as well as the future can you read the last it you say each generation time what's that you say well I thought you said in the past as it will be in the future or in the past and in the future so with that so sister Brahman in every generation or in every religious movement the Lord has similarities and we can take those similarities and apply them to the religious movement we're in right now we're in right now and learn lessons from those on how to deal with how to deal with the experience we're having right now based on all the ages practices he works the same way okay so like two comments that talk about generations and the way you just said that it seems to me you're saying the generation is a reform movement a great Reformation or religious movements or anything so brother Bob he says and they you you want to say something I won't ask you a question he says the work of God in Earth presents from age to age what is age to age different dispensations of the work that God is doing for man I would I would think so give me an example of what you mean by different dispensations I look at the way the way God has set up for people to communicate with him and to worship Him you know how in the in the beginning date they came they came to the edge of the Garden of Eden to worship Him and then after the flood you know Noah was building you know an altar and then with Moses they built this sanctuary I'm looking at it kind of in that light and then obviously it gets to the where the sanctuary was pointing forward to Christ then after Christ came then we're looking at it and like it's not just earthly it's looking what's going on in the heavenly and seeing that Jesus is his is no he was a sacrifice then he's the high priest and that at one point he he went into the most holy place and he's there okay so you'll say age to age means from this age to this age to this ancient you can look at it that way but if you want to apply it to men then then I would say that it just has to do with periods of every repetition you see that there's a period of darkness and then there's a light and you can see that basically I turned out what H lightning Oh the repeat the repeat of the history I'm saying of the of the three angels messages is being given in through in history how I would answer that question so you're saying this age is the same as a reformatory movement yeah so the reformatory movement East is whole history no there's more there's more reform movements there than that so I guess I mean I was looking at it from that angle to start with but but I see that you have to have the three angels messages even though they're in their most complete form our have have you know started in the middle right movement and are going on and are gonna finish up here desserts history but that pattern of the three angels messages can be seen in in these from age to age you can see it there because I'm just trying to understand that you saying that H is a reform movement I guess that's what I'm saying if I had to just boil it down cuz you seem to you say something different to begin with I was probably James since then yeah furball yeah what's mate IHF what he said was - well in context to what we're reading if it seemed that the Webster's dictionary has one of two definitions I mean there's like ten for age but for what we're talking about a century would be one definition of an age another definition would be the people who live at a particular period generation I guess the other success say they flew last weekend the people who live in a particular period okay so if we're live in 31 BC that's the agents being deterred by rope but that yeah so it's one of those - yeah what a century holiday let's say this pronunciation based on the definition given it like the Bronze Age you can look at it from this pencil different champions of dispensation dispensation to dispensation so the work of God in year to present from one age to another age a striking similarity in every great Reformation so what does that mean then you're gonna make it a dispensation you can see the similarities like if I were to use this position right and as you of joining on the board there are similarities between when they are alters when neighbors are sanitary it's the same repetition just bringing in maybe different aspects but is a repetition of the same principle okay then what about the great Reformation these dispensation has a very funny singular just one one one Reformation or lots of them I don't know with it well an age page is kind of similar to generation from generation to generation I don't know how you would define what one ages even one generation can be so if we go with generation yeah from one generation to another generation the striking similarity there be great one religious movement may be right every single generation in that generation is one religious movement reformatory movement so if there's a comma or without a movement that you have another generation yes of each generation doesn't have its own inventory movement he doesn't well I don't know it depends what you define is a generation I mean some generations they're in periods of darkness yes some wouldn't yeah but the ones that do are usually no happy to reading that so you're reading and age is the history of where you're gonna have one religious movement yes that there and these are all connected together so each of these each age it could be that we look at each age as as representing the way that I would look at it the way that I understand it whether that's what she means in this context is that there's always a period of darkness and then there's a reform movement and that to me would represent an age it would represent not necessarily a generation but the expression from age to age using means similar to different generation to generation not that every generation has you know Reformatory movement but it's just a heat up see it's white right well a dispensation because those particular dispensations they do have reformed lines attached to them but there's more reformed lines than just those dispensations of the sanctuary of worship there's more there's more reformed lines that exist in reformatory women's needs this one the exalted the a number of them yeah yeah yeah you're not reading a 2h dispensation to dismiss oh no I not generation to generation yeah and it's a general term you know usually it's because it's an expression so I mean why she chose from age to age instead of from generation to generation maybe that an age is bigger than a generation but it's a similar type of expression it's not something that we're you know what an age is or what particularly a generation is because it can vary so you're picking up from brother James these second definition it's not right second one that you gave the first first or that I took the second it so the first one seemed to be disliked even if it's not literally century this long period of time the center specific lender here in the second definition it says the people who live in a particular period I didn't hear you say that before that's um how specifically sister a list from sister Bronwyn were picking up this concept that this age to age is essentially this religious movement that's going to occur it's a religious movement occurring one age and in another age yep yes from age to age through successive generations during the ages of spiritual darkness the Church of God has been a city set on a hill from age to age through successive generations the pure doctrines of heaven has been unfolding within its borders and fear burdened effective as it may appear the churches the one object upon which God bestows in a special sense his supreme regard that is the theater of His grace in which he delights reveal his power to transform hearts proof times there I think he's I think we can say that the proof takes from age to age through successive generations age to age his generation to generation add to that yep Kalash Christ hundred persons 127 can't hear that kids Christ are in essence one two seven point for my sake this is one two seven things new things old in every age there is a new development of truth a message of God to the people of that generation the old truths are essential neutral is not independent of the old but an unfolding of it as only as the old truths are understood that we can comprehend the new when Christ's desire to open to his disciples the truth of his resurrection he began at Moses and all the prophets and expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself okay so I just go back to the beginning in every age there is a new development of truth a message of God to the people of that generation so in any one age it's talking to the people of that generation that generation that age okay with that so that was Co l1 27.4 and actually the Apostles 12 point 12.1 so coming back to our passage the word of God through the work of God in the earth presents in each generation a striking similarity in every great Reformation or religious movement so are we okay or what do we think that a great Reformation is a religious movement is that what this religious movement is it's a great Reformation yeah so the purpose of this religious movement is what so people could reform their behavior so this is what was mentioned a moment ago to go to each generation and maybe we wouldn't but specifically say every single generation you know literally but there's going to be this Reformation what we're going to list a little bit of detail because I want us to be sure that what this movement is being created on which is reform lines actually has quite a solid foundation it's you know it's not something that we made up or guests or we didn't just go to Isaiah 28 and pick up line upon line and you know that's all there is to it and we just because you know we know when we do line upon line take you from Isaiah write is to spin on the words it's not literally you know the way we create lines in the way there's no exactly what Isaiah is talking about it's a lot stronger than just that so that's why we're taking a bit more time to do that brother Larry than brother Bob there's a good quote and patriarchs and prophets 373 point to that emphasizes the Pope back in GC and it's the 83-70 paragraph - and it's the first full sentence pp 3:17 power graphed on the 373 per gram per tooth God's work is the same in all time although there are different degrees of development and different manifestations of his power to meet the wants of men in the different ages beginning with the first gospel promise and coming down through the patriarchal and Jewish ages and even to the present time there has been a gradual unfolding of the purposes of goal in the plan of redemption so in this one where it uses ages it uses it in a dispensational fashion the patriarchal dispensation the Jewish dispensation uses age in a slightly different way in the second sentence in the first one God's work is the same in all time although there are different degrees of development and different manifestations of his power to meet the wants of men into different ages so it seems to me the ages that are being used here it's not in the same way that we just read from those two takes so it does go to show that it's contextual what age means it could be dispensation as which is what you said at the very beginning could be that or it could be specifically a generation so we'd have to decide what which one it which one it was in the GC crime brother Bob one of the very first principles I ever learned when I started to study the Bible was the principle that God's Word is the same yesterday today and forever that he never changes I can't think of a more foundational principle than that one and that's brought out in this first paragraph as well that you know his dealings with men's ever the same he doesn't change and he's no respecter of persons okay and so we have to do there's great comfort in knowing that and and when we think about how the there's parallels and and we're talking about the present versus the past and how important the past is to us I was taken to a verse in 1st Corinthians 10 11 which says now all these things happen that to them four examples and they're written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world are come so that's just a summary of some of the thoughts that are in this paragraph one thing that we are becoming increasingly aware of and we need to take note of that when we think about these concepts of God's dealing with men he's ever the same and we talk about line upon line parable of the ten virgins has been and will be fulfilled to the very letter all those statements are true in and of themselves but there are differences in these reformed lines and if you don't see the difference is you can get caught unawares so you know a simple overview would be in the history of Moses God is trying to create a church this scattered group of people he's trying to form them into this body and by time you get to the time of Christ what he's about to do is destroy that same church so there's a creation of a church in the destruction of a church and you see the same thing for modern Israel in the right history is a line of trying to build a people and in our history these people are about to be wiped away and destroyed so there are key differences between those histories that if we don't see we can get tripped up another example would be the Miller right line is essentially line of failure they just make mistakes after mistakes after mistakes even in their theology and our line really is a line of success even though you may think otherwise after listening to so my comments but our line really is a line of success and there's his line of failure because if our line wasn't a line of success we would be dying my children would take over so if we we have this belief that we are that we are the final generation then our line must be the line of success whereas the Miller writes when you look back by definition it was a line of failure because they never did the job that they were supposed to the Christ was supposed to come back in that generation which is why we've had so many problems with Matthew 24 from verse 29 30 and onwards we don't know what to do with that cloud you know we wanted to make it Daniel 7 instead of Revelation 1 because we want to kind of tuck in middle-right history so because of their failure that we then have to re-examine how we're going to approach Matthew 13 whether we're going to contain it as the Miller right line and then superimpose or parallel our line on top of that one because you can't you can do that or you can just take it as a singular line progressive line start with the Miller right history all the way into our history so we understood what I just said so we know that these signs here as we read in chapter 17 its 1780 that's the premier sign what makes it premier in 1773 and this begins to awaken God's people and prepared them for 1798 so you have 1798 and then you could go to 1844 and this and you'd end up doing Daniel 7:13 which I've explained the problems that you get into when you do that and if that was the case then we have an option we either say well the same verses can describe our history and for this purpose I'll just bring revelation chapter 1 here so it's these two clouds and that's what the chart that we all that the movement has put out that's what this chart looks like basically yeah people are familiar with that's how that charts laid out yeah and there's this little section here and it says this is April this is the Sunday law so we can either do it this way and make these two parallel histories in the verse or you do this 1798 to Revelation one and here's this cloud you make it this line so this is what yeah what the line is actually teaching but because of this anomaly the failure of the Miller right history the generation should not have passed we have to look at this in them in a more detailed fashion does that make sense Oh question hitch is it why is it revelation what not Daniel 12:1 some talk about clouds and over yeah he's gone the club he's picking up from 1:7 behold he cometh with clouds and I think it's 24 30 a year mattia torre Matthew 24 30 there shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven because they didn't keep you saw that he was having a happy day they made you take that noise it had to have first the investigative judgment so Jesus couldn't come even if they weren't faithful gonna come in October attorney - okay so you remember when we did that line that's why I'm saying this chart is that lining things up correctly yeah I'm not I'm not I'm not something that that's how the chart was laid and I just paralleled that the clouds but this event over 22nd is not the second coming if they had got their history correct it still wouldn't have been that yeah yes so that's why I said that if we were going to do this you'd have to have Daniel 7 here and you'd have to have Revelation 1 here and you'd have two clouds cuz they're not the same way mark even if it go everything correctly same way back to GC 343 so we could pick up this age to age either is dispensation or intergenerational as a way I think we've all agreed that we're going to look at this as from generation to generation which means this statement the work of God in the earth presents from age to age from one generation to another a striking similarity in all the great Reformation or religious movements so let me redo this so this is a Reformation and the reason why you need to reform is because God's people have sinned and we call this sin period of darkness or the mystery of iniquity so we can see all of that just in this sir one sentence the principle of God's dealing with men are ever the same the important movements of the present have their parallel in those of the past and the experience of the church in former ages has lessons of great value for our own time what's that last sentence saying before we see what it's saying what is the structure of that sentence brother Larry would be president okay so I've got to present first and what's all that what's all that that's beginning from in not not what it means well what what is present and past of an important movement these movements and what and then we have experiences ages and hard time for ages in our time so a minute footpath first the former 86 forma here is part 4 of our turn and that is president present this is our time and what's that referring to to Church so you can see we've got a chiasm me yeah the way the port movements of the present had they paralleled in the movements of the past and the experience of the church in the past has great lessons for the church in the present so if we can see that pattern there first of all you have this reform movement that goes on in each generation so we've picked that up and the definition of reform is to people too who have backslidden to get their lives back in order and we've represented that by sin or darkness then we've seen this sentence where she seems to be giving us this chiastic structure there so it says the important movements of the present have their power in the past and expense to the church so what are these movements and what is the church in that first sentence they talked about in every great Reformation or a religious movement we are reading that is the same thing her just telling us a great Reformation is the religious movement we can see maybe in this as she would go on we can see that the great Reformation would refer to those movements and and this the religious movement would refer to the church because of the religious part there both movements they're both Reformation but one is just other types of Reformation x' that aren't necessarily religious movements okay that's what I'm thinking is possible I I explained it well good explain now break it and it be more I basically want to know this isn't important movements of the present so it mentions the word movement and the word religious movement or word movement has was in the first sentence so is this movement the same movement let's refer to back there because initially we said in every great Reformation or religious movement the word or tfoo say they're just different ways to explain the same thing look we will agree with that just they have synonyms and now it see the important reasons of the present so these movements of the present religious movements or different kind of movements so we made that connection so if you go back and say the job that you say that's what I don't know I don't know if those important if she's in a sense repeating again that they're the same thing or if she's talking about two different things I'm not sure of that okay maybe different things then basically it's not the religious movements right the other news yes and and the experience of the church would be the religious movements it would parallel that anyone else everything I agree for him I have never read like this but maybe what do you agree on that this can be another movement not the another religious movement okay it's interesting that talks principles of God's dealing with man so it's God's people then important movements and then experience of the church so it seems they're talking about internal and external you have the internal principles of God's doing man and important movements maybe external and experience of the church internal so I don't know suggesting I know you want to go with application but maybe the principles of God can be the seals the important movements the the trumpets and experience of the church the churches of Revelation I don't know I'm just suggesting okay why do you might those men religious men the Christians of God singing with religious men not just old men yeah I didn't plantation I'm gonna say you brought me I'm just asking sister gray initially when I read this I'm thinking when it says the important moments of the present I'm not necessarily thinking that's referring to the religious movement but more like the actions or activities of the present that's what at least that were presents to me okay so I think if we all agree that we can see the structure if it's there I think it is obviously I don't put it on someone else know he's there what would that be teaching us what's the purpose of crate in the structure what does that structure why is it trying to show us this to other bean this is that guy - do you know I don't know what that my heart's mate sorry obviously wants us to learn something promised he would what what is he want to look quite noticing that we have a chiasm that is teaching he's dealing with the same present past movement equal charge same thing he's dealing with the same thing Jesus repeating and enlarging on he's just repeating himself basically okay so you've your site this is teaching you that the movement equals the church which is different to what mr. Andreu and brother Daniel's and it's teaching them that they're different units brother James give me another picture related I might consider that point that it could be talking about other events if I'm looking at that structure that you just set up maybe I might say that a movement has to realize what they are by looking at the past and then by looking at the past they realized that their church are now the best way to say it was okay so maybe looking at as this one the beneath the movement is the church finds that you correctly expressway but NATO well dealing with the chasms we can look at a lot of different chiasm such as lien Rachel and plenty and famine paganism papal ISM Kane in Egypt usually a chiasm shows that there's things that are parallel parallel yeah well visited 25 2002 1260s Hercules and I you know brother Mario he's that quite the highest extraction it's like my marrow okay it's like a mirror like a mirror you say yes there is enough space I don't think we need more detail to show it to be a class where we justify them as each too strongly but hardly move among people say let me not require subtly but they wouldn't consider it to place out just by itself so you'd have to have the 1260 in there and you can show that you can lay them over top of each other so they parallel each other you got 1260 yeah they're both periods of persecution and there's a transition that occurs so the center of that chiasm has a transition point attached to it you know so there's lots of different features that you could bring out about the two 1260s well no this is not what is it consider is normally normally we don't think of that as a class no we don't that's why I'm labeling the point we don't look at advertising that we just say food clock six is twenty five twenty it sort it's all it's all fine and you know we've got this midpoint midway and we wouldn't go to that the 70th week and think of that that has been a chiasm often we might now that it's thought that I mention it if we did 27:31 and 34 we'd say oh look there's a chiasm you'd say look like a client to me just because it's got these three and a half and it's equal it's not myosin that you would normally think you just want us to see that because it's all about persecution there's no change persecution all the way through this is the 70th week there's no change but there are some things that are different this is the Christ history and this is the disciples history paganism paper sister probably probably wrong whether you got playing this but in my mind when I see a chiastic structure there has to be at least two elements or more for it to be chiastic might have we can't just be a book hinge for me and then into 1260s there just looked like a book that you're plugging it but you would have to have other portions of it that fold in on each other to to be chiastic in structure in my mind okay so you're saying that this one has to look exactly the same or look like this multiple structures on the other sides or somewhere that film on each other okay so if you didn't have that it wouldn't be no holiday I view it as her brother is needed I am just like when mother Theodore starts explaining whatever and he's painting a picture what just looking at it as you wrote it you I have never looked at it as a parable so as she says there has to be forming multiple things folding into each other okay so which there is like this out this out a new face is that a chiasm as it stands and so if you just had like two periods of let's not use this one let's just use Li and Rachel seven years in seven years I mean there's not as much structure in that one I have a hard time removing all that other structure from aniline so I mean he works for seven years for each of them there's nothing that I can think that particularly other than there's some events that happen in the middle but tie them together they're just periods of seven years on the surface they wouldn't really be a chiasm you get just say seven years happen and this occurred and seven years happened something else occurred so that's a chiasm you you have to have a connection that ties those two together and so there is more to this one as well that makes it a chiasm we're just looking at it if somebody was just looking at chiasm cuz he hates no no not as it is as the ages oh yeah no if you don't know about all the other things that happen at the beginning of the ends and the transitions he might miss a chiasm you have to have this equal to this or the opposite so not even just equal they can be related events oh oh yeah yeah there's a connection they go into captivity they're released from captivity you know something happens at the beginning when Hoshi is taken captive that's paralleled at the end when the Pope is taken captive right so yeah so there has to be some kind of structure that makes it a Kaiser do you say pieces the chiasm it's not just enough that you have a meet point you can hate Russia there's things at the beginning and it has to be another connector okay so okay so before you do that where the fiddle is going to mention something about quiet rooms and take that what exalted I picked up yeah and what was point you might be dealing with chasms yes that there are also two different things in the two a house that you know you wouldn't have a chiasm just that had 1260 years of paganism 1260 years of paganism when you look at this bottom one the fact that you have disguises which is present past past present that's a chiasm we'd all agree on that if it was suggested that they're two different things not the same thing based on all the other columns I've seen because there is always a transition in in every guy ISM that they're they're related to each other that they're different the first part and the second part are different well go back to twenty seven thirty one thirty four and this one's all the way through to singular history to begin to confirming the covenant so it's one history and whatever you doing here say you people you're either hearsay people because if you keep your persecuting yeah but there's a difference but this is Christ me the world uses the church the universe so there are differences between them by picking up what you're saying painting is and isn't patron isn't it different entity but the feel that runs through to be the same thing right it's a singular dispensation of persecution but there are differences between them and so when you SAP the structure you wouldn't normally do that because if you're gonna do that then that's right yes it means nothing fun yeah so if you're gonna make the same can you make it the same well seeing but different so they're both movements so they have to be both the same type of thing but one could be referred to things that aren't religious in you know in particular so there are events that happen in the Bible that aren't really religious movements but they are they represent reformed ones I've got I've got the fact that they could be different yeah can they or can ever be the same identical in crisis so they could have a think about that Bobby Jensen chiasm or not it looks like it's a chiastic structure but I think it's more repeating and enlarged I don't think movement in church is correct I think a couple of very key words of being left off it says the important movement and it says the experience of the church so both has both both of the things have to do with what's going on not necessarily that what looks like an entity mark to make them yeah how many kids if you don't take it easy she's correct I think we're just talking about his important movements and the president of has district and experience of the church past and present so I think it's just repeating it and enlarging okay so that's okay the movement is an expiry and she is talking about both milah right time the church that she's ish but even after 1850 well I don't know about with writing so Fisher a to disco fever second-coolest the additional information doesn't help and it's made it does not really do have other people know the she's speaking about the more a movement but she's also speaking about the church but the church is formed through movement so that's where I see both camps some people trying to equate the two and others if I picture up you say the movement issues the experience of the church and that we crept out mission the movement now that in the Miller right time had also formed the church gabbi's world sees that definition all right now because it's not just another like movie but it would make you look in every room in every a yeah it's even the Reformation that was the movement but a group of people who were religious people in churches and they were having experiences from the church they move that you've experienced on the church front of people I have a thing one second brother Daniel so the reason why I was asking the question for either Theodore is what we've got a chiastic structure here perhaps we're familiar with repeating enlarged so you say something and then you say the same thing again and when you say it the second time you don't say the same words because if you said whoa and you said whoa you're repeating but you're not enlarging and because there's no enlargement of information my understanding is enlargement means extra information or added information so this would just be a repeat so I won't give an example of repeating enlarge but repeating enlarge means you say the same thing but you give added information so what's the difference between a repeat and enlarged and the chiastic structure Abernathy if you answer my question you asked me the other 50 if I wanted to draw it on the board since you kind of put that equal sign I'm gonna use mathematical terms I guess so the owner to draw chiastic structure in mathematical terms I put a seven I put I'm not sure with what's in between them put the equal sign and then I put negative seven native negative seven in a sense they are the same but they're the same only if you have both of them like does that make sense like the equals zero they're the same one that when they come together that surprisal repeatly not that's correct he's a chiasm were repeating in large holiday and please yes Kaizen is repeating a lot shoot well in name should I write a doe I'm trying to think of different examples they can be but generally they parked and the ones that I'm thinking what what they're meant to do they do give extra information by the fact that there are chiasm so I'm thinking of literary chasms like the Song of Solomon is written in a chiasm I also think of Daniel 9:24 where it talks about you know the six different things that the seventy weeks are determined for to make an end of sins but to finish transgression make an end of sins make a reconciliation for iniquity those are all kinds of the same things and then the last three to bring in everlasting righteousness seal up vision and prophecy and anoint the most holy those have similarities attached to them as well Derek I assume they're not telling you the same things they're telling you something else so they're your grouping three together and other three together and that's understood as a chiasm by most you know most people who look at that so but they are telling you they are giving you more information but I don't think of it as a repeating enlarge it's not telling you the same thing necessarily so I want to make sure that I don't yeah I'm trying to think of examples I can think of some in the Psalms where it you know it does things in Reverse but they usually when you have the mirror it's telling you something more it's telling you that they're they're the same but different to me that's the way I would think of it ties the first part to the second part but they're not exactly the same even though they have a common theme I repeat you know they are exactly the same yeah they're telling you the same thing with just more information but then if the concept of a mirror what should the mirror be reflecting or shouldn't it be reflecting anything because if if I'm using the concept of a mirror and I'm showing you a mirror why would I be showing you a mirror if I'm going to be showing you Jason in the concept of how we are using it with the classic structure to learn things so if this is not reflecting that it was presented but something completely different what's the purpose of that well it's not completely different it's the opposite so what is the purpose of repeating in large to expand on what it is that give you more and the chiasm that's what I'm saying that I'm in my mind is arsenic give you more kaiser gives you more as well could you think they were saying things from a Larry and the definition of Murphy dia plastic structure you have it up there where it says present past past present it says maybe should equal be a and that's what you had so if you closed present past past present there's match perfectly together for let them run from here so that would mean they equals in some structure it doesn't say say the word equal but in a sense yeah yes so this thing is equal to this so in some shape or form there are it is the same as a repeating not repeating it but there's an area of but but says different variables like the VA a is exactly like me that makes you sick when I think about this the chiasm Azrael cannot be what comes to my mind is how the 2520 as we put it on the board are on the line how we say we have never hear him he can't hear me all right I'm saying we have when we talk about the opening of the 2520 with Isaiah's prophecy 19 and 46 and we look at the Miller at history and we see at 19 and 46 and we come to the end of the malarial history the prophecy opens with a 1946 and it closes with an 46 and a 19 but you still have those there 19 and 46 elements in them so that's what that's what comes to my mind if I think about a chiastic structure and we're dealing with let's say a prophecy like 25 20 and we're going and we break the line and we show that you had a 19 and a 46 here at the opening of this prophetic line and then we come and we come to the end of this prophetic line and we show a 1946 and the conclusion of that you're seeing all that consent chiastic structure equal or is it different that's what I'm asking you just told me about 46 or 46 which we all know in my land it's it's it's equal what with with different slightly different information over James I have something else to say about the paragraph still but I don't think we're back to them can we call hate you I said I have something to comment about the paragraph but we're not back there yet is it the chiasm or not yes okay so it doesn't equal there he's a chiasm the same is repeating a large just like a family in Nepal we meet Li not I think lots of times they are I don't know that every time they can't be ok I can't think of a lot of a lot of different ones in my mind right now but the ones I can think of are very similar so it can be so a chiasm is a repeatly knowledge but it has characteristics about it which means this pattern kind in that sense it will be repeating a lot but it has also some unique characteristics about it which isn't exactly same as you have in this standard made a lot so you couldn't just get that and drop it down here because the past would be after hearing so we have to be careful how you do that we are just talking funny daddy I like this 7 and minus 7 you are repeating the number 7 but you have the additional - there so when you repeat something here in the beginning in the end God demonstrates stands from the beginning so what is in the am is also why isn't it really so yeah I think it's the same thing the chiasm befall repeating a large because I have additional fishery I think it's Silla strating the end but you have a different information so I think it repeats and it's and also you see the some Yanks let's have you feed in a large and it's a chiasm okay for the boat I don't know if I've heard people talk about it yet but when I when I think of a chiasm there has to did a chi a sixth rupture not only begged you to look at look at how it how it inverted or chiastic on itself but it also begs the point to look at the center where it folds on itself it brings it brings in my mind to bring some emphasis on where where it hinges will bring you to that midpoint okay so let me ask you question it 19:46 46 19 1863 and 742 what's the midpoint sorry point taken it works nicely climate sometimes sometimes it does like that one which is a make you one that we don't even have a midpoint Ritter it sounds like nebulas idea that we have this imaginary fold line and you can fold it but isn't it I've never seen anybody going to that and tell us what the date is and you might be but that was if that was one that came to my mind so I'm gonna say it in summary so that we all together on this that repeat and enlarge that's just a repeat to enlarge upon it you have to give additional information a chiasm or a chiastic structure is a form of repeating enlarge but it has its unique form it structures this repeating in like in a slightly different way and in its the subtleties of that that help you can be able to draw out more information or it points to something specific so if we can agree on that that it is repeating in large we may have some unusual characteristics about it and one of the things is that whatever is attached to the chiasm because the chiasm is being formed by this statement present past past present that is if that isn't actually your target that's not what you're really dealing with it's the things that are attached to it we can see that okay brother James we're going to come back to the passage so again why I think it's important movements and experience of the church and not movement as some might have thought might think that it may be the sentence here says the important movements of the present so so God doesn't have multiple movements going on at one time and the millerite movement there wasn't multiple movements it was one in the time of Christ there was at multiple movements there was one in our time there's not multiple God doesn't have multiple movements as one and so that doesn't seem to be pointing to a movement as the beginning of the church you know what I'm talking about so I think it's the important things that are going on the important movements that are going on okay so important movements got that big and the experiences of the church the experience of the church again it's important things that are going on so you'll say the movements and the experience is the same tell us what you're saying I'm not sure what you're saying yes I think that's what's being repeated in enlarge the important movements and the experience of the church okay so you tell me what the movement is context what would what would the move what would a movement they or the movements what is that talking about things that have been within the church so surrounding the church surrounding doesn't mean right you say okay it could be a tub it could like the captivity of Babylonian captivity that's an experience of the church and it's an important movement so what was the movement State Police says was important movement of the present in the present we've got multiple movements that we know cuz that's the point that you weren't bringing out right so movement sequence walk and her time no this is generic I are these I agreed with sister this about you I'm doing all that okay those days because this is just a generic statement she'll come to specify you know later on perhaps what should they do visit the mission the general opening statement that talks about what Evers happening in one history has happened before to generic statement this is a 2h and captivity isn't home under that category I don't mind I'm trying to fight I'm just saying it's not specific so how you say seeing the movements in the present the diluting of the doctrine that we have I don't know but other than that I don't wanna put this like the lifting of the doctrine I don't wanna quit down I don't understand I don't have that's working it seems to me you say the movement is the experience that's what you want that's what you want to say yeah you're saying the movements equals the experience and this is of the church so therefore this would be of the church you're saying the things that the church does is the experience of the church yeah you can't you can't come to us and say it says movements with a s and then experience in the singular you just you just ain't experience it experiences the movements has a lot of multiple things I say if it's a movement would you come to totally different understanding if you said movement and experiences if the esses had swapped individuality is because it seems to me if you say these are equal but if someone does something it produces an experience it would seem to me of cause and effect between movement and experience as opposed to synonyms but I'm not saying I'm right but that's what I was thinking when I saw this recalls in effect so I'm just gonna see what you saw just said so so important movements today are like Wade marks that we've been traveling through who's Crichton those way mops I think we like Satan oh god I mean who's creating those weight loss you know like who's picking them out of the blue or no new business then this message asleep isn't doing that okay who created time of the end it was not Church go back to the time of Christ who creates the time of Christ that way more time to the end it wasn't they the leaders they didn't create that did they who created that some external agency some avoided themselves into tiny earth God in that situation he said I want to do something I'm gonna cause something to happen and I don't want to say too much you I don't tell you what I can I want to know what you think so whatever say most the important movements are the things that are happening currently okay so I give me a helpful of what things are happening the former ring being poured out the latter rain being poured out those those would be important events revelation the angel of revelation coming down would be an important right he's not anything it's not is it I don't think is and this is tell me you tell me quite how rain is an event thunderstorm is an event I can't say rain is a message right and I'd say the messages did you check in the newspaper today that Russia and America had a fight that to me would be something in the rain would be a message about that thing it wouldn't be the thing yourself well I wouldn't want to say that most of I think what the the context of the paragraph that's talking about is to do with the church so I don't know if I could just say that any random thing on the news would be important event but I mean we know that some of them are but if it has to do it there what the church is talking about or the gods church that's on a public okay but like you said the experiences what they went through if you say cause and effect you're saying you do the cause and you have the effect that's how you understand again anyone else it's wrong sorry that's a question Oh the movement elites the movements and how are you reading this passage I read it like it's written right up there here present past some movement past present okay so he's a movement the church but middle point between those two I don't put equal sign but maybe I'm up here so the movement is the church Reformation the movement that was the Reformation during the Dark Ages wasn't the Catholic Church had produced the Lutheran Church just says the millerite movement the Advent movement produced the SDA church but it wasn't the Protestant church so I don't I don't know how they keep people okay experience of the church I can I think we can lay out that in a lie like you have it's appointment you have a requirement of the message I think that's the experience of the church and this way marks which is the experience of the church we could pair well with the movements of the present because every state this movement is a wreath is a reform movement I don't know if Ella Wyatt has any reform movement during this time she's living you know like oh there is a movement here and this movement is gonna be repeated I don't think that's what she's talking about I think she's talking about the advance movement as experience of the church the remarks ok so we've run out of time so I'll tell you what what I being have a think about this little close but the prophecy was seen to be historical events upon a line figurative delineation of of events so what I'm understanding or seeing is the movements are external events or history and these external events produce an experience in the church and these external events are 1989 9/11 all those things which are existential nothing to do with us we have no control over them they just happen in in some you know ad hoc fashion they just come whenever they come in and these events or these movements in the plural because there's lots of them they produce an experience in the church and the experience they produce is Reformation if you want to want to go with that so that that's how I was understanding that if that was the case then the movements wouldn't be this the movements so that picture work wouldn't be complete then it would be the movements in the world would produce experiences in the church through Ganesha Finnick bits but those words aren't in that passage which is why I didn't put them in there so I have a think about it and will if you get chance in fact if you do think about it you'll dream about it tonight well you'll dream about it tonight and when you dream you might you'll reorder it and it will be helped to fix in your memory in the morning so pretty sure we've got a chiasm chiasm is teaching us something Kaizen is a reform of repeating enlarge they have some subtle unique properties about them and in most chiasm x' it depends on how sophisticated or complicated they are and a simple one like this it's this bit here the top above that's above the line the present past past present isn't really teaching us anything it's just it's just creating a structure on the thing that's more important which is the movements and the experience and I think what what is being portrayed here because of the the movements in the plural and we don't have multiple movements in it in any one dispensation is that the events in the world creating the experience in the church and I know some people already said that I think brother Daniel and sister and Ray was suggesting that already and not everybody agrees how to think about that and we'll see what conclusion country tomorrow Heavenly Father we want to give you praise and thanks for your watch care over us as we try to understand in a more systematic fashion what this introductory passage is dealing with in one of the most important chapters in the great controversy we want to ask that you would guide us and direct us so that we might have a clearer understanding of your word we ask him pray in the name of Jesus coming