(09-16-18) Afternoon - Application Numbers 24 - (I-1DCAo2s7s)




Publish Date: 9/17/2018
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YouTube Title: (09-16-18) Afternoon - Application Numbers 24-I-1DCAo2s7s
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comment numbers 24 first 15 a Lim's final Oracle he took up his parable and said Balaam the son of Beor had said the man whose eyes are open hath said he has said which heard the words of God and use the knowledge of the Most High which saw the vision of the Almighty falling into a trance but having his eyes open verse 17 I shall see him but not now I shall behold him but not now there shall come a star out of Jacob and a scepter shall rise out of Israel and shall smite the corners of Moab and destroy all the children of Seth and Edom shall be a possession of Seir also shall be of possession seer also shall be a possession for his enemies and Israel shall do valiantly out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city and we looked on Amalek he took up his parable and said Amalek was the first of the nations but his latter end shall be that he perish for ever so we're here to look at verse 24 through chapter 24 verse 17 what is this verse saying 17 but Larry one second the star is angels and scepter is Christ and you say this is the angels at his birth with a Stephen don't I don't want to stand this threat I don't understand this force yeah that's not anything about limits oh well select how we explain that I understand that part okay nothing more the way I see it slightly differently to why I rated Star Jacob I'm saying his Christ and the scepter is also Christ the Kathy the day okay I think the same that the star and the scepter aren't cranks and that whenever first is smiting the corners are more on this during the children oceans shaft that it's well it applies to Christ whether the Jews misunderstand that could that's a funny thought that when he come in is first but his first coming would be glorious you know and he'd be the keen to order elevation and so that's how I understand this variance explained a change and so just trying to say that what you said the gate Jews misunderstood then I think this is referring to Christ you know in his glory his first coming of course because I think it refers to Matthew to to you know the wise men saw the start but I think this is a point in second coming when he comes in glory but the Jews at that time you know they misinterpret man thinking okay here's them coming the key but that's not talking really come first so the first part of the vs. II the first ad Nate in the second part of the vs. the second I think that you see that we sit yes she's the caffeine iron under I didn't think that's what she said but she said like that she I thought she said that they misunderstood that that's who they were hoping the Lord in his first coming would be with the scepter and the destruction of destroying the nation's when it was actually pointing to the second coming - come sit forward I think I did I what he's gonna say to you that coming Redeemer and it's the visas first come on okay intersective it you may see that's Christ you saw and the start is as Christ also and this my tingles no app and chips I don't know if that's the literal historical part or if that's part of the symbolic of his second coming is he saying what he's racing I guess I am okay sector first Aggie you say hey well no no I don't think so Oh second it's all the second Agnes no the star is the first also the stories the first I admit the centuries the second I think I think okay I just have enough okay you want me to have another gates I would have said it was just cities birth in the center point just another way of saying it explaining the text we say this the star is at the star Restatement the Secretary's David Starr can be a leader Mohammed is a flyback star inside and chucks might point to Moab except this is David destroying nations why you say this is taking see fulfills and that he's thinking what rose up primary application and you have any updates hood we just threw this short camión I think you fulfilled it I guess now we also feels is disabled literally yes okay well it looks like a couple of repeating enlarges myself see him behind Alex at the old end about nine it almost sounds like you know you have to ask yourself why is it repeated we know the word does not repeat anything that is of no great consequence that seems like something really simple so it's like they're gonna they're gonna see who he is but not at first please night so they I would just imagine Israel just painted his eye right I know having the thighs open he's in a trance and this is what he prophesied okay so buy them he's a simple local paper and completely gonna see him so not yet the way I look at it is not at first but not yet it works too because it says I shall see him but not now I shall behold it but not not obviously it's not gonna see him right there but anyway so it says there shall come a star out of Jacob in Tulsa OK judicata in God you say go to the ravine so they're racing right now what do you mean by that well that's that's why that's why I said I think there's more to it than just he's not gonna seem right there visible we had done I thinks when he comes they're not gonna see him at first they're not gonna know who he is at first but they will so then now he's not now but now he's wouldn't come right so I shall behold him but I wrote the whole thing now right even though you are beholding him right so you exerting the idea of understanding not just looking you're inserting or is very good idea of understanding because whoever is talking about when it comes you're gonna see him frankly they're not going to know me right so you've been certain the concept of not now meaning I see if I don't understand who the years right yep and you can feel that from that word office upon the first threat divert a lot from those two phrases but also when we know Israel is made aware of this presence you know before that I mean they're slightly they're made aware of his presence of the baby but they don't spend any effort into things that who he is but once he's baptized and he comes on the scene you know it seems like many of the leaders were exactly but for 30 years he's nobody they snort reason 2700 yeah so the stories and then it says there shall come a star out of Jacob and a scepter shall rise out of Israel to me that looks like a receipt in logic again looks like it's saying the same thing twice Jacob is Israel a star and a scepter are different different symbols that similar things like that's a start leadership scepters can't or a rod the power could be a ruler doesn't have to be so that looks like your average evening large to me of the same thing and then the last part I don't know no oven set so I can't say but since the other two were repeating enlarges it's very well that those tourists even larger the same thing as well and what he sweets that yeah correct I think Moe of ancef represent the enemies of God and when's he gonna smite bed it's like incoming second coming and the star in the sector still angels of the birth of Christ and the scepter is cursed so how would the Angels coming out of Jacob okay but the verse doesn't break that weight or coming out of Jacob and you don't see this is repeated in large previous verses no there shall come a start out with Jacob the first statement a scepter shall rise out of Israel second statement Israel being Jacob know that they both represent Christ well I guess I'll ask you see that you don't see to repeat their large thing we did a great Jacob is round I mean him like yes who like we know that Jacob becomes the Israeli moon right and you know the star comes out with Jacob I shall see him not now I shall behold him but not know saying that balaam will see him at the second coming when he's raised up out of the grave and he won't be among the saved he will be among the love okay either said that by another spirit proxy class yeah okay I'm wrong okay about what price is an application hmm nope so who is this I think I agree with sister Tess and you take it though yeah well if you if you look at the context and the other verses that you read and it says that he shall smite the corners of Moab and and if you if you understand that the direct understanding of the verse not an application of it the direct understanding is just referring to to David and then if I go wait thank you from from 15 and 16 know from looking at at the rest of her 17 when he shall smite the corners of Moab and then I started to look into this place and I find in second samuel chapter 8 verse 2 it talks about David making the ball bites his servants and you know smiting them so and I i I'm seeing more reason to see that the most direct what it's pointing to what's actually saying in that verse I see it I see it pointing to David but obviously the application of it then when we make an application of it I see it pointing to Christ okay so you're just seeing baby because David's might know a pitcher I thought I should I haven't been able to study this out so I don't know I guess yeah making sure that look yeah most I said everyone I will try sunrise what someone says there are some probably picked up and so they're all short what you say sister test quartz the David to fading Moab and Edom he's the one that company is stationed because we gonna need the first eighteen Shay I couldn't find chef kind of wandering by the Ganges obviously I can't hear what you say but okay so your argument is assignments for the boss so you said that David is the one that destroys my wife Amy yeah I'll be able to that and in verse 18 and even shall be a possession seea also shall be a possession for his enemies and Israel shall do valiantly so you picked up Marylebone either eat them but they did easily destroy bugs are them and you're going with the children of share has been a repeat and enlarge of the corners of mower and see also okay verse 18 he then shall be a positioning seer also shows the position tell you this you need to get ready yes Genesis 32 3 the land of Ceres the country they shall repossession for his enemies and Israel to valiantly out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion and shall destroy him that remain it of the city so let's face it as well and what city is this sister Kathy he said he switched over to Davy yes why because I wanted to do I see that the application of Christ is a secondary application what David would be the first face to pull off well based upon I'm presuming that there's more to the story with Balak and Balaam that I'm not familiar with and there may be get see yeah okay but why is why your wife's lips I'm just guessing is how the people think Thank You daughter because I did look at other verses I'm looking at my computer came here and I'm seeing more applications to David primarily of doing what of fulfilling this vision which bit of a vision are you picking up where David's per fitting this vision also say it's the same thing as the others are saying yeah picking up Moab and Edom and you've seen that David destroys these nations rotate oh um well in Genesis 49 we have reference to the scepter so you know in Jacobs blessing of his children and it talks about you know Judah might as well been all those types of things like my Judah which refers to Christ but also to the kingship of Judah and then in verse 10 it says the scepter shall not depart from Judah nor lawgiver from between his feet until shiloh come and unto him to Judah that's where the temples going to be so you know there's definitely a reference to the scepter and Judah and we would then apply it to the fact that Judah is where the temple is going to be and the kingship is going to be a lawgiver so this would show that the primary application of this scepter would be a king in Judah a literal king not Christ so you think this is Davey yeah because he's the one who subdued small and admin fee termites Sears City so it would make sense that he's the one who I mean it's not everything Emin I think it's either eaten this year right yeah so yeah we've done we've done to a demand say we fact we had the Bible verse for that yeah and yeah uncle you may need them yeah okay so we've got Moab and even that subdued those he's the first king okay so oh so happy with those ones yeah so let's go back to the sector so you're going to genesis 49:10 yeah that we show this let's go to forty nine ten I got from verse nine Judah is a lion's well now I'll pick up pick up from verse eight Judah thou like he through thy brethren shall praise thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies by father's children shall bow down before thee so we've got Judah destroying enemies Judah is a lion's whelp from the prey my son thou art gone up he stooped down he couched as a lion there's an old lion who shall rouse him up those tents the scepter shall not depart from Judah nor a lawgiver from between his feet until shiloh come and unto him shall the gathering of the people be so that's the know she took us to I what does that verse me verse 10 yeah so it says that the the kingship is going to always be in Judah King the lawgiver refers to the refers to a king as well so it's just a repeated enlarge because the King deals with laws and then different people have views of Shiloh I'm not sure what shadow is but unto him shall the gathering of the people be the first the fact that Judah is going to have the temple so that which was supposed to fulfill historically so G temple where the people gathered for religious services was so him he's not shy love him he's Judah last part of the verse yes it was not sure and who the last King the last a scepter shall not depart a king shall not depart from Judah so they'll have a kiss as the last king he that referring to Jesus the scepter shall not depart until Shiloh come it's not that lawgiver that scepter is not Jesus in a secondary application so first they're just applying it to literal Kings honors so what it says you can have a king until Shiloh comes yeah and I'm not sure what Shiloh is so when did the Kings in Judas stop that's what I've asked me zenyk is the last king does that mean Shiloh comes winter the kaya's day because he says except to show not me Judah until Shiloh come that the kingship was then overturned it ended up it was taken captive and then when Jesus comes he then takes the kingship so the sector he's not just earthly kings nice look just Judah not just got two people no it's not just God gay God is has at that time Judah has the Shiva scepter so the scepter will be in Judah and then something happens so it says that it's going to be in Judah until some event that you've tied in another Bible verse that says overturn overturn overturn yet until he comes right so aren't you inferring that if you're saying that the fact is evil okay that's a later prophecy so at this time when the prophecy is written the intent of this prophecy of Jacob is that his son his son Judah he's going to get the kingship his his descendants and then that kingship will always stay in Judah until Charlotte comes until Shiloh come whatever that he thinks that means I have no idea okay but then you bring in another passage what Bible verse is that one over turn over to ZQ Ezequiel 2127 I will overturn overturn overturn it and it shall be no more until he come whose right it is and I will give it him secret thirty twenty one twenty seven so if you're going to use that passage to explain this passage because this passage is saying that the last dude Ian King the last Jewish King he's going to reign and when he finishes his reign then shiloh will come so we know we know the last Jewish King he's there the Chaya so unless we're going to have hundreds of years between that last king and then shiloh coming wherever China would be and this we're going to do that which we don't have any reason to then Charlotte would have had to come at least after at least at the beginning of 70 year captivity or the Babylonian captivity or just afterwards when they get restored to the land I'm not sure what she means though I understand that you know I've got that scenario it would have to be in that generation unless you've got a huge gap or if you're going to bring Ezekiel 21 into there then you're saying that the scepter shall not depart from Judah which means that there's going to be a king whose ruling Judah and it doesn't have to be a Jewish King it just means that Judah has a king that's ruling over it whoever that king might be a rightful king and it as I say made but it was God's will then it should always be a Jewish king but because in Ezekiel 21 I think it's 26 he talks about thou wicked Prince they're gonna lose that right to have the scepter and the scepter is gonna pass to someone else and then when it goes through these various nations you get over turn over to an overturn and then once you get to Rome then the rightful heir will pick it pick that up again so it seems to me if you just if you're going to use that verse to explain verse 10 and say that Charlo can't come during the Babylonian captivity era then these verses become parallel and then when it says until he come that he would be Shiloh's you're almost forced to say that aren't you if you're gonna get those two verses and it's it's yeah and I haven't studied this something the last time I looked at this maybe thirty years ago so you know it's just but that's the way I understood it at that time my understanding of it was that the scepter first was in Judah so in order for Jesus to come and take that scepter he has to be a descendant of David but it says that the scepter was not depart from Judah so my understanding is that this overturn overturn overturn meant that because they didn't follow what God wanted God then gave it to these other nations until Jesus comes why does he have to be a descendant of David is that what gives him the right okay I understand later on but I'm saying this context that gives him the right the right he's just because he's a son of David well that's not the only reason but that's one of the qualifications for this person to take this after he has to be a descendant of David okay so that was promised later on who didn't understand that not saying did everybody agree with it who did not understand what that little dialogue was if you don't beat your hand up I won't explain okay okay so we want to come back to brother James in a moment we're in numbers 24:17 and I'm asking what's what's going on in this passage so I'm going to leave the first part of the passage for the moment there shall come a star out of Jacob and a scepter shall rise out of Israel it appears to be a repeat and enlarge and people are saying that this is David this is this is talking about David there doesn't seem to be any direct fulfillment that this verse is going to be fulfilled in the life of David so we're looking for circumstantial evidence for that so that's what we're going to that's what we're searching for so the primary circumstantial evidence is Moab verse 17 and Edom verse 18 Edom and seer are the same entity so that's a repeat and enlarged and based upon repeat enlarged of verse 18 you could argue unless someone's found something in the meantime that it's probably repeating enlarge in verse 17 which would mean that Moab would be the children of Chef so we what you might be able to trace who chef was and his children would be mreb maybe maybe not but there's the inference there and we know that David destroys the Moab and Edom and could we just have the Bible verses for that whoever whoever's got them to hand just shout them out so that people can write them down second samuel 8 2 second samuel 8 2 second samuel 8 - that's lower 2nd samuel 8 2 is Mowatt and second chronicles chest first chronicles 1813 1813 Genesis 32 3 says that senior is the land of evil and so Genesis 32 3 says either Micah's here ok so that's the that's the primary logic that we're using I think that was relatively straightforward so there appear to be three repeating enlargements in this verse 17 first one is relatively straightforward I shall see him but not now I should be holding but not my second one the inference is that there shall come a star out as Jacob and a scepter shall rise out of Israel and now brother Theodore is saying that this Spectre that's being discussed here you can go to genesis 49:10 which is where we went and we picked up from verse 8 and I believe it goes to verse 12 I think 8 to 12 this is Judah which is the blessing is going to come upon Judah from Jacob his father is about to die and the one that we are picking up or focusing upon is verse 10 49:10 the scepter shall not depart from Judah nor a lawgiver from between his feet until shiloh come and unto him shall the gathering of the people be so what's be suggested here that sectaries a king and the kingship won't leave Judah or a lawgiver from Judah or from between these stateless between from between his feet me without being crass about it yeah okay so lawgiver from between his feet this is between the one who's got the scepters feet you can I talk I'll ohcome so Shiloh means so we know that Shiloh is the place where they first where the tabernacle first has its rest I guess we could say it that way it first says its its first place of where it becomes stationary becomes a permanent tabernacle in the glorious land and that's what's been referred to here it's not obviously Shiloh literal or it's not enough to do a tabernacle but it's talking about that so hopefully that straightforward it says the king ships won't leave Judah until Shiloh comes listen paraphrase of that passage and unto him shall the gathering of the people be so it's either Shiloh that's going to gather the people or it's going to be Judah that's gathering the people and I'm assuming if it's Judah they're all going to or Judah's going to gather the people because all going to come to Judah because that's the capital that's where you'd be so then we went to Ezekiel 27 no 21 Ezekiel 21 pickup from verse 25 and thou profane wicked Prince of Israel whose day has come when iniquity shall have an end so the wicked Prince of Israel this is a Zico 21 just before the destruction of Jerusalem is Zedekiah it's the king who lives in Judah or the scepter that's in Judah when iniquity shall have an end so there's no more sin because everything's getting sorted it's all getting cleaned up and total probation we might call it 26 thus saith the Lord God removed the diadem and take off the crown this shall not be the same exalt him that is low and the base him that is high I will overturn overturn overturn and it shall be no more until he come who's right it is and I will give it him so when it says I will give it what is being given to him whose right it is to have it brother Gregory someone's got a right to something and it's going to be given to him what's going to be given to him since were you talking about my kingship or royalty okay we went back to verse 26 remove the die then take off the crown take the crown off of delic Aya's head and give it to someone else exhort him that his love and a base him that his high whose hi sister pan Zedekiah and whose lo the next king so who's the next king after Zedekiah who takes the crown from Zedekiah so I didn't hear not Christ no sir Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar's a lone person when if it has some pretty nice way of expressing it when it says he that he's low low in the sight of God he's a Gentile in that sense so he's going to get it and the one who's high he's going to be a base then it says I will overturn overturn overturn says three overturns so we know that Bob law is going to be overturned so how do we do these overturns sister Andre starts with Judah the wicked crease then he's going to be a base the one who's lows can they be exalted so that's Nebuchadnezzar babylons got the crown then so you've got Babylon medo-persia Greece and then pagan Rome so how that's gonna work really agree with that I will overturn overturn overturn and it shall be no more what is it shall be no more me no more what brother Daniel brother Graham which so you mean there's no more Kingdom mr. Reichel you've either turned three times then what's gonna happen is the Brittany sister Tess changing government which bit you reading me so changing government so we've got we Rick Judah Judas up here and they Jews going to lose the crown and the low person's gonna get it then what happens so he gets overturned is that the first over - yeah right no he's Babylon the first overturn or he's the first overturn before that so the first Babylon sorry the first over Tony's Babylon so he says overturn Babylon then overturn medo-persia then then overturn Greece so we've got to the part where it says overturn overturn so they've overturned : and then it says and it shall be no more so once Greeks are overturned then where are we so we'll just say we're wrong we're wrong now so where are we at Rome in this verse when we've divided if you wanna read the verse where would you say accurate Rome now not after the 8 overturn overturn overturn 8 : I will know where we pick up pagan Rome or pick up Rome okay so that's he says overturned comma 8 : so now we're at road and it says and it shall be no more so in Rome what's going to be no more Kings pretty quick don't they well couple of hundred years but but they do have King so what do you think it's where it where Rome where it says : it says and they shall be no more so what does the HIV no more me have you may now so Republic I would think you would have to go back and there's no more crown it shall be no more it means there's no more crowns so Rome doesn't have any crowns anyone total fault I think when it says it shall be no more suffering there's no more overturning politic of the scepter and the susceptor returns of the the one charge is Rome and I think we're stuck with rome pagan able and modern until I'm talking about Christ's return okay so start sadly Judah Babylon medo-persia Greece and after Greece comes through and it shall be no more they'll she would there'll be no more overt earnings why don't you get to Rome yeah indicating that Rome is the fourth and last Kingdom Bible prophecy that's what you say I'm saying that we're stuck with Rome yes is that what comes after right all the way up to the end of bill price comes he's no one off the road anyone okay looks like it agrees with what sister Tess is saying when did Rome have a king because around the time of Caesar they were still they still had a Senate to the Senate's who killed who killed him Senate is yeah kingship even though Caesar was kind of ruling everything don't lock Julia sees the first aid prop because it started like 168 and go till 4:30 m'kay so I don't know when the first Kingdom waits long before Jesus is born you're going to go from a hundred b c-- 200 BC to 500 AD about 700 years at least 500 of that is Kings yeah we're sure do dc1 sit please be seated till 585 38 maybe just till the time of Jesus that's all you say how they'll take a road walk no I wasn't saying that I was just saying 168 to the time of Jesus was just 200 years I don't know when when when it's when he ends this thing and the drama bob was suggesting at the end of the world I don't know I was thinking okay okay so you're saying and it showed me no more that means there's no more king that crown gets right put somewhere on hold if it's a group of people or a co-leadership it's not a king so so there is no king in Judah right so doesn't that break verse 10 chapter 49 he says the scepter shall not depart until he comes if we're gonna tie these verses together anywhere else you're gonna say so it broke great okay so was that clear bro Theodore's explanation of the of that of that verse whether you agree or not with it brother Bob saying there's gonna be no more overturning until he comes whose right it is to take the crown and the diadem and I will give it to him after Rome after Rome has received it then Christ is going to receive it we know where we would pick that up either at his first Advent or the second Advent okay if we just go back to yep what is it and it shall be no more brother Bob saying it is overturned it's not going to be note there's not gonna be any more overt earnings shall be no more so you already signing doubtful you got all these eggs yeah yeah I could see I could pick up the it's Mina highlighted there brother Theodore sister taste so you can't always just when you have a translation there it's sort of hard to look at did you think this is in it and then there's an it mmm is it the same it you're not suggesting that we can't just read the Bible as it is written are you well I'm just saying sometimes they've got out the back you know that yeah but it just means this or this thing these therefore likewise so when it says I will overturn overturn overturn it this shall be no more or likewise or hereby it shall be no more it seems to me that no Bob's probably correct that's referring to this process is this is the last time it's gonna be overturned and then it's he's gonna come whose right it is that's the way it's a different in the tower let me just paraphrase what I think right they will say the it's don't really exist in in the original right they've added those it's in to make to convert from Hebrew to English the way that the slightly the way the diversity structured you just don't have those it's in there in the original we have to put the it's in they still are added words they're implied in the in will say employed not added right yeah because you if you've got two Hebrew words you have to say for English words to actually make those two Hebrew words have some know some context make you have a sentence if you like to have a sentence you have to have we were brother Daniel was explaining some of that at lunch that when you just from Spanish and Portuguese it's just totally different than English the way the whole thing is just put together each language has its unique characteristics about it and those pronouns essentially don't exist in in the Hebrew in the way that we would understand it so it's hard to say because the Kingdome translate it has all these is and it's not that we never do it because often we will track the it's and we'll have to go back and see where those it's are there so I don't you to think that we just trash them because they're not there in the original we have to we have to consider that but it doesn't necessarily mean that all it's are the same thing in that verse sister taste it I'm going I'll stick to my original premise which is that those dates are important and that it completely changes the meaning of the sentence so if you want to wide it out then yes if you wonder what white it out nice yeah oh yeah if you wanna erase what but the ears then you can say it's the overturning but if you keep it in it's either a completely useless word or it has to go back to the sentence before if you're gonna make it the overturning you can just say I will overturn overturn and it shall be no more there's no no use for that word you won't say overturn it it would have to go back to the last now I'm not the last verb and the last noun of the sentence before and it's talking about the diadem in the crown overturn it you wouldn't need that it to know that you don't need to have that we said I will overturn it you don't need to know you don't have to have that it there that it just helps to guide you the good work that out what's being overturned it's the kingdom's you don't need that it to do that for you in learning the same sentence it says and it do they have to be the same it mm-hmm otherwise it would reintroducing your word but it is a new word it is that word it is not it oh I just think it's I think we can get ourselves into problems if we're going to be really rigid using these words that have been added by the translators to control how we're going to do that and any any you're basing this upon the Rome's our Republic and it doesn't have Emperor's I don't if you if that's what your primary logic is it's not okay so what would happen to the crown then when it says the sceptre shall not leave the land you're saying that it it will need to land from Greece to when he whose right is receives it so you're so assuming 21 chapter 21 is an agreement with Genesis 49 with that understanding my argument was when brother Theodore said it says a scepter will not depart and the scepter is there the kaya and either you're gonna have Zedekiah and then if you were picking up the first Advent you've got five hundred years there abouts until Shiloh come and okay okay all right so I'm not saying shiloh is Christ for sure but even but other white will make that connection than it is so assuming that there is the primary application of Shiloh and assuming that Genesis 49 is Ezekiel 21 and if this is not acceptable to say that the scepter won't depart until Shiloh comes I'm saying Shiloh would have had to come here or at least at the end of the Babylonian captivity when Cyrus comes so if you were going to do Genesis I don't know how how you'd sort of work that out trying to figure out who Shiloh is you might develop an argument that Shiloh becomes Cyrus do United one the Messiah could argue that but if you go to Ezekiel 21 it picks up Zedekiah and then it says overturn overturn overturn and that's Babylon medo-persia Greece and then it says until he whose writing is to own it which seems to be Christ which I think would line that which I know then you'd have this gap here and you end up having the same problem that you have back in Genesis 49 that Shiloh is not coming as the verse predicts or says but if it if the verse means 21:27 means that I were to note it is not really only more overturning because you've reached the last fourth Kingdom eating the fourth Kingdom that Shiloh or Christ will come we know that they aren't going to be anymore kingdoms afters that third overturning it's the last overturning separate and distinct to all the grab a bit of these verses so that's how that logic went ran brother Daniel or Oberlin before we read that any comment with what I'm asking do you agree with with my interpretation or the interpretation of grammar I've seen the logic because if you're going to say it shall be no more you say there are no sectors in Judah after whom so you're saying is equal 21 he's got nothing to do you are each going to pick up Jewish kings would you mean article you're gonna introduce a gap well that either gives you three times that's what you need because road never gets overturned I have what so there's no gaps now I'm not sure even if you make Roman Republic Rome is the ruler the lawgiver the one who runs Judah did the de facto King however they can do whatever form of government they have Herod's the King way back from ID before 280 BC my original preference was Cyrus application but that wasn't my argument laughing it was just a meeting of the bus you could make charlie 49 you're gonna make sure looming Ezekiel site with Cyrus would come where there's overturn overturn overturn all these people are going to have King and you get through Greece Cyrus is right back here in medo-persia in the middle how would you get to why would you make Cyrus a fulfillment of the 0:21 where you're going to go past that and go into Greece give us one other I don't so like I said what application you even coming up with will you agree that's Pablo meter Pro degrees you've got to grease and then what's happening and Rome doesn't have any kings that's what your argument needs it doesn't have any diadem's it does where'd you see Rome in that verse so you're not even seen right in the verse so what does it mean and it shall be no more I took that to read that the diadem and the crown is no more Judas it wasn't Judah's when he I will be turned over to an overturn it so : it's giving more information on the first half so it says it's not going to be do this crown overturn overturn overturn until he comes and then it goes back to Judah and wait so don't really turns our donations you agree with that and you don't see Rome anywhere no it's just by implication by the Daniel I don't see the gap there because it's wearing Babylon any silver stud no you're the re-grease and if sorry you want me to burn sugar and then it's a return you are in Greece and the third one you are you wrong and that's where they're rough let's cut out without hands comes that's the white there is no reward when he says a child remember what is that meaning shall be no more I'm trying to use Daniel to to say that during Rome period the rock comes in to strike is a true okay so sister Tessie saying I will overturn overturn overturn it and that it is being what I'm gonna overturn who's what crown is that we're not overturn it that's the crown of Greece Greece's crown yeah and it shall be no more means so you're saying and it shall be no more is a repeating in large or the first part of the verse is that okay underneath anybody understands that insides repeating in large or it means you've got to the time of Rome in Rome's the last one anyone won't commit what I understand of the first part of the verse where it says even had this overturning of kingdoms until he until Jesus comes basically Babylon's gonna be destroyed wait opposed are going to be destroyed Greece is going to be destroyed once Greece is destroyed we know Rome take saundra so Romy's there by implication it shall be no more which means let me do it this way I go to 26 exhort him that is low and the base theme that is high so we're going to bring down Zedekiah and then I'm gonna say and this a basement will continue until he comes or until Jesus comes I skipped out the first part of 27 because it's repeating lies you can skip the first part and this the basement will continue until Christ comes is that basically what you're saying hojae's oh brother Jason is that the one that you say though is it different much okay just as background removed from Israel past succession of successively to the kingdoms of Babylon medo-persia Greece Rome and Rome dog says it shall be no more until he comes with this and I will review and Herald okay look for a book for the time of the end November 23 thank you so you inhale okay further James will pick up the prank drops improper 22nd oh I was just going to say when you look at you know we have automatically assumed and after repeating on the large that the word guide in mind so Jerusalem lost a high priest and exchanged spend time so died then means move to die then okay so it's it's gonna lose its priests wait duh I can't say for sure that's what it's saying I'm just saying that's what the word says it is and they do do that the city is destroyed and there's never you know the ark isn't recovered so the high priests isn't doing what he's officially supposed to be doing even though they have a high priest when they come back because they only think the high priest does differently is the day to come but they don't they're never going to do it to have the Komen after that I don't know if they do it or not but there's there's no official 'ti to it you're saying it never would be one that works right and Christ picks up the crown and right then what's the rent curtain indicating they were sprinting the blood on the curtain it's a fulfillment that that doesn't need to be done but that Passover has to then be connected to a day of atonement you agree with that yeah so if the red curtain is indicating that the temple is no longer fit for purpose it must be fit for purpose before glory we're not showing that the Shekinah zevran after I'm not arguing that point but I'm just going from the basis that it's at that point that it's no longer recognized okay so I agree but how could they actually cleanse the sanctuary yeah but weird weird thing going and sprinkle the blood they've got more poppers just that I know I mean it's where the smoke from the incense gonna go to it's the whole thing is this functional if we're going to use that body but there seems to be some acceptance that the temple is functioning I would argue because because the curtain then indicates it's no longer functioning times Jesus has come there's no more shadows been fulfilled so uh even though they don't have the Ark of the Covenant there they must be performing those right figure those festivals however they're doing it I mean I'm not arguing that they'd it's not that you know what happens to that I'm just saying it doesn't take a high priest to do anything yeah but you say you're suggesting that not even do a daemon atonement I'm saying properly so what were they needed the high priest they were going through the motions but it but the high priest has to be the one that's going through the motions and when I can't take his place no I mean they were going through all of them up well yeah somebody had that official title foot they weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing there's no way to do okay I didn't have to answer that okay so patriarchs and prophets 762 okay so this isn't spit a prophecy paragraph to the kingdom was then subject to Babylon when Babylon fell neither Persia succeeded it it was overturned the first time when meet of Persia fell and was succeeded by Greece it was overturned the second time when Greece when the Greek Empire gave way to the robes it was overturned to the third time and then says the word it shall be no more until he come whose right it is and I'll give it him who is he whose right it is thou shalt call his name Jesus and he'll be great then she'll be called the son of the highest Luke 133 31 to 33 so okay so this is this is the compilers I've done real here and daddies it's someone's comment on that it's in the book education on page 170 that broke that statement there yeah so it is most of the education 1 7 9 thus says the Lord God so she's going to quote 26 and 27 to Crowley moved from Israel pass until this is the same thing that brother Jason read read to us the crown removed from Israel tossed successively to the kingdoms of Babylon medo-persia Greece and Rome God says it shall be no more until he come whose right it is and I will give it him that time is at hand today the signs of the time declares that we are standing on the threshold with the brakes on new events is that the same as review and Herald identical ok in the patriarchs and prophets 1 it's not an inspired statement the way they've understood it I guess it's for sister tests how are they doing that with this repeating enlarged or it shall be no more means as Oh moreover tourneys how they how do you read it just as they've understood it no the patriarchs and prophets will do education 1 in a second let's say that the way I'm just wondering how they how they are sort of how they put about that person more Kingdom was then subject to Babylon when Babylon fell with and made a purchase exceeded a it was overturned the first time so ok I'm gonna meet again you're saying that still fits in with your model wherever is written there and the education one back to the web the crown removed from Israel passed successively to the kingdoms of Babylon medo-persia Greece and Rome God says it shall be no more so I'm gonna add one maybe two words it shall be no more Judas until Jesus comes that's what you're saying how do we read this one because it's gracious the way I might structured it is she structured it in a way to take out the even the concept of overturning brother Bob just means that there's going to be no more the crown being passed there's no more passing of the crown the crown removed from Israel pass successfully to the kingdom of those three empires God says the passing shall be no more passing and their crown should be no more so just anymore so it still fits all sort of place to the old returns so you'll say the party shall be no more until Jesus comes this is the Tessy saying and it shall no more be Judas until he comes would that be a fair reading brother Bob okay we get there in the same place get to the same place to be eight yeah anyone else got opinion okay it seems to me I kind of lean before an opposition did this spectrum if I didn't seem to have some change that perspective it appears from this sentence to me that the overturning stops at home and it stays the from tilt priceco okay so you ain't the same way brother yeah Papi's and he's that reviewed hope on that day the same as the education one anymore seems that percent okay so we won't read that one okay so coming back to numbers yeah we're back at numbers okay so it's coming back to the numbers one you said the original context with Christ if I remember back when I was there yeah whatever desire of Ages page 61 second fifty nine point three one second varaluz 59.3 I can look at welcome to desire pages in a moment because I've got that reference we're gonna read desire ages in this passage how come you can you can't see David yeah I don't I don't know that I could say I don't see I'm not reading this in a little bubble so I'm reading this with where I've read the whole day so that's why I'm not saying he can't fulfill it that there's reasons why he great yeah so what consi IKEA but we're gonna witness their images we're gonna say that's an application but that's my argument I know you've said that okay so without desire of Ages you can't argue this not David but if they be fulfilled it the primary application must be David you wouldn't have it you wouldn't have a secondary application before the primary one dude the Jews hat yep two of us my friend Eden that's all you've got okay they did we voted them it's not many you say no you know King Saul yeah yeah so you know he did my urban Eden is more christ-like yeah okay so I like this first the first bit of the verse I is not Balaam I is God's people we know the spirit prophecy quote brother compares rather Larry's got a prophecy quote which is basically saying Balaam gonna resurrect and not gonna be very happy when he sees them I think that's what that specific rate is gonna tell us it's gonna come up through in the second or in the special resurrection I got people because it's a parable shall see him and when I see him it's not gonna be now it's gonna be sometime in the future but you're not reading it that way you're saying I'm gonna see him being born but I'm not gonna understand who he is right now I'm gonna run Stan who he is when he's 30 when he begins his ministry that's how you reading that passage and it is I read he's gonna help you with that one oh that's just your reading but okay he's not gonna help you with that one so everyone else virtually I don't know if anybody else was against this everyone saying it's David everyone who spoke said it's David and one who spokes you said it was David didn't attack on the first part of the verse so how you're going to tackle the first part of the verse if this is David not to say that brother James his understanding is correct or not dwell the whites gonna do this is Balaam he's gonna see Christ when he's too late when it's Judgment Day but when Balaam speaks about this he speaks about it in the positive it seems to me not like with trepidation and fear so how you're gonna the him would be David I presume so how we read there I see I see David but I don't see him yet is anyone got any thoughts he said ray to be honest I kind of find it difficult to see this burst as applying to David I still see it as Christ and I see the first part I thought it was kind of a positive not I wasn't really taking it to account the quote that Larry has read Larry that when I was thinking of it in as a bad paraphrase but the verse in the New Testament where talks about we shall not see him now but then when we see him we'll see him sec please face-to-face others first John that's talking about someone completely okay we're just just to be honest that's how I said that's why I thought it was like yeah Balaam is Curtis we know that at the end of the day he's a lost man through the false prophet but I saw it as and he's just saying in an Oracle on behalf of God's people that's positive that's a blessing for them but I see it as Christ and I just saw that you know the first half just referred to that like the coming of Christ you know the the the positive positivity that has to do with becoming a crane that's where that's hot your luck where they stop arguments about the sector and all of that you don't like will they strongly argue quo and those arguments a strong argument if you're not strong all those arguments about Genesis 49 the scepter shall not depart from Judah nor a lawgiver between these fate to trial oh come then Ezekiel 21 note that that sector was David I don't you go back to slowly David and all of his grandchildren all the way down to Zedekiah it was all those kings okay so whichever way you want to go if it's Christ who is the star with Christ be the start this was all Christ and would David be the star if it was all David agree with that because some people are saying this is Christ and some people are calling it's David so let's go to desire of Ages chapter page 59 paragraph 1 that's right yeah I want to go to paragraph 1 for this one goes to the beginning of the chapter we have seen his start chapter 6 now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of kings in the days of Herod the King behold they came wise men from the east of Jerusalem saying where is he that is born King of the Jews for we have seen his star in the east and have come to worship Him so they're picking up this star the wise men from the east were philosophers they belong to a large and influential class that included men of noble birth and compromised much of the wealth and learning of their nation among these were many who imposed on the credulity of the people others were upright men who studied the indications of Providence in nature and who were honored for their integrity and wisdom of this character were the wise men who came to Jesus the light of God is ever shining amid the darkness of hedonism as these Magi studied the starry heavens and sought to fathom the mystery hidden in their bright paths they beheld the glory of the creator' seeking clearer knowledge they turned to the Hebrew Scriptures in their own land with treasures prophetic were treasured prophetic writings that predicted the coming of a divine teacher Balaam belonged to the magician's there at one time a prophet of God by the Holy Spirit he had foretold the prosperity of Israel and the appearing of the Messiah and his prophecies had been handed down by tradition from century to century when the Old Testament the Savior's Advent was more clearly revealed some would stop there let's summarize so it speaks about the wisemen paragraph 2 paragraph 3 says they study the cosmos trying to understand more about God and they've got their own prophetic writings wherever they came from and some of those prophetic writings are Balaam's and it's not Balaam in the Old Testament it seems to be there someone has has got Balaam's words and is kind of introduced them even into their own writings which are outside of the scriptures but in the Old Testament the Savior's Advent was more clearly revealed so they're going to switch from these other writings to the Old Testament and they're going to start reading the Old Testament the Magi learned with joy that his coming was near and that the whole world was to be filled with a knowledge of the glory of the Lord how did they know that his coming was near where did where will you find in the Old Testament that he's coming he's near that's right Daniel so there must have gone to Daniel 9 in some shape or form they understand Daniel 9 the wise men had seen a mysterious light in the heavens upon that night when the glory of God flooded the hills of Bethlehem as the light faded the luminous star appeared and lingered in the sky not a fixed star or a planet and the phenomenon excited the keenest interest that star was a distant company of shining angels but of this the wise men were ignorant it says it was a company of shiny dangers wouldn't be read before 8 years ago don't remember she used the word cluster he says it was a cluster of angels company arranged cluster of angels yet they were impressed that the star was of special import to them they consulted priests and philosophers and searched the scrolls of the ancient records prophecy of Balaam had declared there shall come a star out of Jacob and a scepter shall rise out of Israel so before we read the next sentence she's quoting Balaam I'm gonna let brother James go back to paragraph three in a moment and they've seen this star and it reminds them of the prophecy of Balaam and he says in Balaam there shall come a star out of Jacob and a scepter shall rise out of Israel now he's the star that they've seen in heaven the star that's being brought to view in numbers 24 he's at the same star from Dan you saying yes I thought as we show you I'll show you Nadia tackle you okay so in that application you think it is so when we say we say the star comes out of Jacob so we say can't be the Angels and now we become the Magi so we're going to be the Magi and do we look at that star we say oh that star was what Baylin was talking about ok so the next sentence could this strange star have been sent as a harbinger of the Promised One so this is what the Magi are thinking brother Bob what's a harbinger a sign we'll go with sign something that's going to predict or tell you that something's about to happen you carry that brother Daniel so what do the Magi think the star is a sign of what inside okay what about numbers 24:17 what do they think that star is do they think that star is the star of numbers 24 / Bob brother Graham not sure row Stephen baby and I don't think I think he's David because David's been dead for a long time sister Rachel did they think the star they've seen in the heavens is the star that's in numbers 24 your imagine I thinking that not what you know what you're thinking I'm asking what they thinking based upon what we've just read and not asked me to guess brother Daniel okay so they know numbers 24 is the promised one and then it asked them tells the question what question do they ask themselves sister Rachel what questions they ask themselves is that how you read that sentence could the star be a sign of the Promised One no you're looking worried that's one that's one you understand why this question because I were up because some people thought that the star was the angels because we know that's how that's the story runs but I wanted this to see that even the Magi and who are the Magi sister Tess sorry okay sister Kathy who would the Magi priests Oh in this story no oh who are they a symbol of Oh Chris priests why because they are the first to see me cuz they're the first ones we don't call them Magi we call them what kind of men wise men they're the wise men they're the wise okay so we know they're the wise it's an increase because they're the ones who have gonna be there at the time of the end just that simple level so these priests these white virgins when they see the star what did they know they know the star that they've seen is not what the verse is saying they're wise enough not to know that what they know is when they see the star it's a wall it's a sign that this verse is about to be fulfilled that's what Harbinger is so they don't know about the relationship of the star and the birth itself of that they're unaware so they see the star they know that that star is not the sub not the star of Jacob they see it's a token that the Promised One is about to come so they go looking for what what they're looking for look at a promise when they're not looking for the star the star is doing war guiding them to the Promised One no there's no prophecy there's no prophecy of the token okay we'll go with that it's not a token yep so they just make it up I'm happy with that they're gonna make up this token that this strange further strange thing that they just saw is they're gonna say will invent a token and we'll say that token is predicting this Promised One because that's a star and this is a star and they know that that star in numbers is not that style that Missy and they're just invented a token you okay with that now you should show off you the house that might I was have to say what's a token I was just the Rachel and you said you can't do that because you're bringing me to York you're bringing me to account say God followed the rules there's no prophecy of that so so I'm okay with that yep so they invent it okay this is a class he stopped my logic I just kind of shuffled people along in a certain direction but everyone comes up with the logic she said it was the token I thought it's quite reasonable and it wasn't just my logic that says about tokens I mean it's you can demonstrate that tokens aren't tokens unless you prophesy them we actually read that in their GC quote there is not one I've just said Greek we do the recent one so this one there is not one so so they're making it up beautiful destruction okay but what's Balaam prophesying is he prophesy those angels are gonna be over Bethlehem and actually I wouldn't be careful cuz I'm not even sure okay well get your ball game to the end because they see that they see though those angels but when Balaam says it is bad I'm saying by the way you're going to see those angel George babe saying the star is Jesus is soon to start the angel and me this scepter are you beating the verse then you're gonna tell me that Jacob is a symbol of heaven because they say he just came out from heaven because you're all going to use the argument in Daniel chapter 2 does the stone is Christ and is going to get cut out of heaven the stone comes out of the mountain the angels come out of Jacob Jacob therefore becomes heaven because they could ask whether coming out okay so if we go with this option when you just gave us Bain vape a token and then bent it based upon wall because it just looks right they were there at the right time and they saw this star and they don't even just see the star by the way you know if you read the story they're not just so casual observers like you know five thousand people see the star that star is gonna guide them know specifically Danny then the star hides itself then the star makes itself visible the stars just for them just for the wife then no one else you agree with that we're all familiar with the story it's a special kind of a star no prophecy about it though food that okay so if we go back to 90 not 90 get research volume a page 11 then onwards all of that passage the buildings and the fire and all of that is talking about the day of God's judgment then these wise people sitting around one day studying the prophecies and on the TV it just shot out in front of them oh look Nick some buildings coming down in New York I don't mean that disrespectfully and I said that and they said oh look that looks like that verse we just read and those wise priests could see that what they saw on the TV was not what they had read but they saw that what was on the TV was a harbinger of that promised day just like the wisemen figured it out the wisely knew from the very start it was not the it was not the star of Jacob the star that comes out Jacob they saw that it was a token of that just on that basis I'm arguing that's what we did with testament to church volume 9 for the coming of the king that whole section it was dealing with the Harbinger that we saw that looked exactly the same as that inspired statement and this by state was talking about the day of the Lord it's not talking about 911 but they saw 911 is a harbinger of that because it looked identical star of Jacob which is some words which is a person the word star looks like a star that you see in heaven when you see buildings being destroyed by these great balls that she speaks about I think page 26 23 somewhere smashing these buildings up fire engines are not capable of dealing with all of that by the hand the Lord all these are being destroyed we saw a harbinger of that it followed all the words in the versus fire engines weren't able to operate seem to be connected with New York if you go back and see how all of those buildings were put together who put them together who bought them all the money that they made all of that it all seemed to fear but like the wise men these wise men at the end of the world could see the difference between a harbinger and the original thing perhaps let's pray I didn't get a chance to do verse 3 we'll remember the next two and no you think it's whatever saying that this is telling to what you just said it says that every pause for rest they search the prophecies the conviction deep in that they were divinely guided well they had the star before them as an outward sign they also had the inward evidence of the Heavenly Father we want to give you praise and thanks for your goodness and mercy lord help us to trust in your leading may you continue to guide and direct us and even in the study that we've had this afternoon where we've been dealing with difficult Bible verses Lord it's it's never a good outcome where we can't agree on a Bible verse but we are told that you would direct us so that we could come into unity even though we agree at the end or the conclusion what these verses mean it's always a special blessing when we can all come to the point of agreement we hope that you will fulfill that is we think about the star of Jacob help us to consider what implications that has for us as we are here at the end of the world we ask for a blessing in Jesus his name Amen