(09-13-18) Morning - Summary and Time Setting - (qGdgzCzGuqk)




Publish Date: 9/14/2018
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you oh man just want to summarize some of the major points if they made you some of the points that we've come to we're in chapter 17 of the great controversy we looked at the heralds of the morning we didn't come to a conclusion what the morning was but the heralds come by different names they're the tokens they're the signs the harbingers of this morning and it seems to me that that morning is referring to the second Advent and he people have come to another conclusion or a different conclusion or any conclusion so that's what we've discussed so far we then looked at what those signs were we spent some time having a cursory look at Matthew 24 mark 13 Luke 21 and when we were doing that we took a little time even though I didn't structure the chapter this way because I didn't want to go into the chapter the chapters broken down into three sections but I think I even mentioned this really you can see all of this clearly in chapter 69 the desire of Ages it really would be worth your wild reading that chapter in connection with these three Gospels and if you were to do that you'd see that Christ focuses on two specific histories one of them is the history of the disciples and the other one is the history of God's people after the dark ages so let me just do a schematic of that so it's really in three sections it's the history of the disciples then it's the history of I'll just put the 1260 and then it's the history of God's people in the time of the end once you can see that structure you'll notice that he skips over this period here and that was part of the discussion that we had yesterday about Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled it's described slightly differently in each of those three chapters and that's what that picture work is here so this history here is like this from a t-72 1798 he pretty much skips over that history she explains why he does that so there's a focus on this history a curse we look at this one and then this history of the time of the end so if we don't see that in its original application we're apt to make mistakes and we discuss the issue about the wars if you remember here in class we discussed about the walls the walls are in this section there the walls connected to the disciples if you see what Ellen White's commentary on it it's as it was described it's this internal struggle in Rome it's as nations were trying to free themselves from the bondage of Rome and if you don't see it in the original setting it's really difficult to make applications at the end of the world you end up being lost and you're saying there's lots of wars at the end of the world and it's becomes a meaningless token really and that's the mess that God's people are in we don't know how to read the signs properly that are here at the end of the world they're very specific so we discuss that and obviously say obviously if you're in this message for any length of time I think it was gonna go to the verse we don't need to turn there just to make sure I say the phrase correctly verse 6 it says but the end is not yet so it talks about the end and that end is ad 70 I want us to know that but you're Euler noticed that many people when they when we first discussed it said that's talking about the end of the world and what they're doing is they're getting this line of history and they're breaking it like this and they're creating three separate histories three separate lines which is what you're required to do so when you make an application verse six the end is not yet you would bring that to the end of the world so there is that legitimate I'm not denying that's not what's we're supposed to do what my I don't know the objection is the right word to say what I want us to see is the way we do that should be done carefully it's very easily just very easy just to read those passages and say in the history of the disciples you know you're going to get this feather shipped so you know it's easy just to see that you're going to go to court you can see all those things but how and when those things happen needs to be considered carefully and the only way you can do that I'm contesting is by understanding that history well then as I say there's the second segment which we can discuss and she doesn't discuss him he doesn't really go into details of it and there's quite a lot of details here and our focus has been here at this last part of the his of this vision this prophecy and these are the signs or the tokens that we've been looking at in some detail in class so where we're focusing on this history here 1798 but before you get to 1798 there are some tokens or signs that are connected with it we discussed them 1755 1780 1780 becomes the premier sign and the reason why it becomes the premier sign is because of 1773 1773 is when persecution effectively ceases at least from the perspective of the papacy now with Ellen White makes that comment she's not going to she's she's on an agenda if I could put it that way she wants to direct us in a certain way but that's not the complete story so we'll just run it the way she says that 1773 persecution effectively ceases the reason it ceases is two things first the Jesuit Order is going to be dissolved disannulled through pressure from the European countries and you can begin to see also the rise of the United States there's tension between the United States and the United Kingdom and 1773 marks the Boston Tea Party we haven't gone into the the details of what that meant so we would do that if we were going to study it and then make application so we discussed that then we went from that line and we redrew it out here and this is the dark day the Stars and the distress of nation and all of these become signs before we went on to that we spent some time looking at the reason why the papacy is going to receive a deadly wound if a classic reason that we understand that we can see from Isaiah chapter 10 you know is a chapter 10 itself exhortation that demands God punish the tool that he used to chastise his people when babylons doing that work for God it doesn't even realize why it's doing that it doesn't realize that God is essentially disciplining a disobedient child he has no intention of destroying his people that's never his intention it's just punishment punishment in measure Babylon doesn't realize that it just sees God's people Jerusalem Israel as any nation and they're going to wipe or attempt to wipe them out completely and they're going to ascribe all of that ability to their own strength and wisdom so God's going to punish them for that we saw a different perspective the different perspective is that God's given the paper so your mission to do and they become derelict energy because they stop persecuting people 25 years before they're supposed to God can't have that because it would break if we're gonna see this of the 25 20 it's gonna break that prophecy so he's going to raise up someone else to finish that work and the people that he's gonna raise up because he doesn't have that many choices is France but France has already been there on the scene France was the king the north it was in close alliance with the papacy from the very beginning so France has to change its role from the king of the south to the king of the north and he does that just at the right time that the papacy is ceasing to do its work of persecution so once the papal Church stops persecuting through those states France will pick up that work so we discussed that and we see that in revelation 11 there's a third element that we didn't discuss that we all think of familiar with that the papacy is going to be punished now the papers is going to be punished this is a separate thread a separate line we've got multiple themes running through this history and sometimes it can be confusing so I didn't discuss that third one it's the one that we discussed the most in our movement and this is Islam the role of Islam in the 1260 so a simple way of looking at that I would think is that Islam is going to be used to punish Babylon but I can use it that way rrrow specifically when it goes too far in its opposition to God and the opposition to God is identified in 538 where it makes a Sunday law once it crosses that line God says this is too far I never asked you to go that far persecuting my people then he's going to send Islam to punish the papacy he's already done that work before when it comes to pagan Rome and the reason why it's interesting to see the role of Islam is because the breakup of pagan Rome here into the ten toes is connected to the work of Islam sorry not Islam the four trumpets that come before it because Islam is one of the seven trumpets not Islam so we see that the breakup of pagan Rome or the punishment of pagan Rome is done by these four first four trumpets and then when the papacy does the same offense makes a Sunday law because pagan Rome had already made a Sunday Lord 3:21 they're going to receive a similar punishment now it's Islam that's going to be doing that work and Islam essentially stops doing that work it runs out of steam it loses direction so once it does that then God has to raise up a new power to finish the work that Islam didn't complete which is to punish the papacy and again France takes up that role so there's just another line of history that I think we're familiar with which we didn't discuss so the two that I wanted us to see the one that we normally understand papacy becomes as well gets punished receives a deadly wound because of self exhortation Gaddafi we use that phrase the other reason is that it stops persecuting God's people 1773 and that's connected to the work of the Jesuits and also the work or the role of the United States so we discussed all of that then we looked at these signs we went into Matthew 24 Luke 21 and we had some discussion of how we actually view those verses and if we're in Matthew I think we were doing it from Luke so I'll go to Luke because that's the one that's probably in your notes so in Luke 21 we often teach in our message that when you get to verse 30 and then white when she quotes mostly he calls it the budding trees of spring and whatever the reason or the logic which I'm not going into we've made that verse verse 39 11 I'm not saying we were right or wrong I'm just stating it as a fact so we made verse 39 11 and it's easy if we're not careful to pick up from around verse 25 before I go to verse 25 if we go from verse 22 verse 24 Luke 21 22 24 that's this line here so Luke 21 22 24 when you see Jerusalem verse 20 come past with armies that's that that's 80 66 then you know that the desolation thereof of it of Jerusalem is near at hand 80 70 then it gives you some instructions of what to do and then you get to verse 24 they shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led away captive in all into all nations and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled and I'm saying that takes you all the way to 1798 essentially so what you've got there is Pagan persecution and papal persecution and all that we're doing or all that God is Jesus doing is picking up the tail end of the pagan persecution so if you can conceptualize it that way because when this was spoken about it with some discussion sister said sister Tess said this was the two twelve sixty two twenty five twenty but obviously we know this is not 1260 it's long it's far short of twelve six it's just a tail end of the 1260 but if we can see it as par or a theme or a conceptually as the twelve of the twenty five twenty this pagan persecution and papal persecution it allows you to understand and we didn't discuss this bit okay before I go that is everybody okay with that verse 20 when you see the armies coming know that destruction is about to happen eighty seventy and it's going to be a bad time then verse 25 says for a verse twenty four Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles and again we didn't go into the details of this but I did bring I did introduce revelation 11 verse two where it says for 1260 years the holy city is trampled underfoot now to really defend that properly you'd have to go into Book of Daniel and if you went into the Book of Daniel you could go to Daniel 7 Daniel 8 and Daniel 9 and if you parallel the verses the right verses you could defend this this this thing but I'm not going to do that because I think most of us will see that's reasonable because we're all familiar with the twenty five twenty is everybody okay with that logic what I've just said explaining the versus just summarizing so if you can see that this is a form of the twenty five twenty you can just express it see in that way they're all we're picking up is the tail end of that then when you go to Daniel chapter 8 then you chapter eight down you tap tonight then chapter eight is a twenty three hundred days not the 25 20 hopefully we're all clear on that but when you do that what we've just done here you can see that there's a relationship between 2300 days in the twenty five twenty so if I were to break up the 2300 days like this and the verses will direct you to this direct you to this you have eighteen forty four you'll have 1798 and you'd have four fifty seven so this is the 2300 day prophecy and if you go into the verses and and and look at them carefully what you can develop or you can see is that the 2300 days if we were to put 538 here this is 457 BC we can we can see this these dates in Daniel chapter 8 you need a new tap tonight to help you along the way we know that this is papal here and this is pagan but this is not 677 or 723 this is not the beginning of the work of paganism so if you can see it here the twenty five twenty the structure of it you can see the same thing here in Daniel chapter 8 and once you can conceptualize that just based upon this because this is easy to see you can build up I think a reasonably good defense for the twenty five twenty it's a different approach to to look at the twenty five twenty to see the relationship between the twenty hundred days and the twenty five twenty once you can do that then you can do some perhaps run the nice thing that you could do is if you understood what two twenty means you'd have 2300 days twenty five twenty and you'd see two twenty here and so you can see the relationship between twenty hundred days and twenty five twenty but the 2300 days is a sub as a part or a component of the twenty five twenty that's that's the only point I wanted to speak up you can see that in Daniel 8 you have to use a bit more than Daniel 8 to see that but it's just based upon this logic here which we can get straight out of Luke 21 it's easy to see this isn't this is not some fancy footwork so we did all that then I think if I think it was yesterday's class kind of always it was like if it was the last class we we mentioned about Luther you remember looser in 1540 that's the date that brother Theodore gave us he's saying 300 years crises about to come back obviously you he was slightly out in his calculations were not far out and he's basing that upon his understanding that the papal church is the Antichrist was the man of sin that needs to be put away before Christ can come back and he's factoring in the 1260 so he's using time to do that calculation even though it's a little bit vague and then we went to three hundred grafts one for a nine paragraph one tells you the condition of God's people here in 1798 onwards that's the condition of God's people and when you read it it pretty much looks like they're in a lady same condition and we had a discussion about whether or not their lady seer or not I'm not I know not everybody agreed but I'm saying this is not lady's here this is Sardis and ladies here comes afterwards lady seer okay we'll leave ladies here for the moment and this condition of worldliness there's brought to be a view in 309 paragraph one is the condition of God's church which is Sardis and I wanted to develop an argument for us to see that this is not some condition that you know they just fell into ad hoc they just got tired of something and it just happened per se they lost their focus this is not about morality so much is about doctoring it's been it's been created this moral situation has been created by doctrine and I used the the phrase the counter-reformation which I think most of us who are familiar with the counter-reformation was the work of the Jesuits that's what they were created to do and obviously you the term is obvious count for information it's to work against the Reformation one of the works of the Reformation he didn't start that way it was justification by faith ended up morphing into Protestantism because that's not what it started as he started as justification by faith Protestantism means someone who's fighting or warring of protesting against the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church is the man of sin so you've got two people that are fighting against one another and one of them is calling the other the man of sin so soon to get to the man of sin you're going to have to incorporate time into that into that argument which we read that that's what Luther had already begun to do and so the council information is going to argue against that and wonder one thing is going to do to defuse the ability of the Protestants to call the papacy the man of sin is they're going to deal with time they're going to introduce the millenium doctrine and brother Bob gave us a nice little overview we were mentioned three names Darby Moody and Scofield he's an Englishman he found some document in Oxford eats it then goes to the United States so he I'm not going to go over that again but he mentioned about that so this is a Catholic doctrine and if you go to 309 paragraph one sorry go through those paragraph on the last half of the last sentence says that the church God's people were putting far into the future the solemn day and the reason they were doing that is because that's what they'd been educated doctrine II to believe so this doctrine went from Catholicism into Protestantism because this is it talks about this is the Protestant churches we saw that so the problem that the Millerites are facing here is that God's church have been seduced and taught doctrines from the papal Church that's revelation 2:20 and they were taught that in the 1260 so when they come out of Babylon in 1798 they're going to come out of the grave for sure because they've got a name that says there are now alive Sardis but they're really dead and that death like condition is because they have held on to papal doctrines and the thing that we often focus on when we when we say they hold it not the papal doctrine it's what doctrine do we believe they're holding on to Sunday we say you know they're holding on to Sunday and then Bates and Rachel Oaks are gonna do their work and then right time you get to 46 and then why it's going to be free from the shackles of Catholicism and then we might also talk about the state of the Dead which gets addressed in 1844 but I'm saying all that's true but the premiere one that we've missed because the Miller rights aren't arguing about the Sabbath and they're not arguing about the state of the Dead that was not their mission their mission was the unsealing of the Book of Daniel which was what what was the unsealing it was in relation to time - the the fight they become the Protestants now because they're protesting against the Antichrist Catholicism and they're doing their job which is a hacking them on the doctrine that is the one that needs to be addressed which is the issue of time so that's why there's all this discussion about them then your doctrine and this is what Miller has to deal with from the very beginning to the very end of his message does that make sense so what I've tried to do is look at Miller right history from a different perspective to hopefully help make sense of why some of those things happen and why we believe what we believe about them in the right history but not only that once you see the dynamics that are going on then when you do line upon line you've been able to approach line upon line in a different with a different perspective and time becomes a serious element in that dialogue now because then we have to understand what the other might mean when she says shouldn't have any messages dealing with time where if we if I mean let's not worry about what the Church teaches just in this movement whether you have left the movement or you haven't left the movement we know the Miller right message me the right movement is the first and second angels messages revelation 10 verse three the seven thunders was a delineation of events that should transpire under first second a message brother Daniel was discussing that and I think everybody agrees with that based upon that logic if you're reading this movement even if you've left you take that concept some people who begin to shy away of pablor of the ten virgins has been fulfilled and will be fulfilled to the very letter but many people still hold on to that in some shape or form but if you hold on to line upon line and you're going to take the Miller right history and you're going to say this is going to be brought into our history how can we deny one of the I don't even say one of the the premier theme of that history is times setting and that time setting is not in opposition to God it's doing God's will because the people who fight against time setting of people who have imbibed papal doctrines and this is Sardis so when we had the discussion about where we're going to place later seer if you remember that discussion we had in class I'm not just saying okay I'm saying it's later seer because you can see that structurally structural agency doesn't come into effect 1798 its post 1844 so you can just show it that way but it's not just that if you can see that the condition of Sardis is about time and that condition that's created in the Church of Sardis was about was based upon the doctrine of time and it was introduced or given to them by the papal Church back here in revelation 2:20 everybody understood that logic then what you then do if you're gonna do line upon line is you're going to take that dynamic and bring it to the end of the world now we've already little set up because we were setting you up that this 1260 suddenly becomes what for us here son becomes 126 so 538 suddenly becomes what year sister Bronwyn what is 1798 become for us what year does that become for us 1989 12 3 126 years 1863 yeah okay so we then suddenly are not just taking middle right history now what have we just done even though perhaps we didn't realize we were doing this we're now taking the history of the Dark Ages and introducing that into our line now we always do that I rubbed out what we did yesterday and pre million before the time at the end you've got a period of darkness so we know we already did that but we normally didn't worry about it too much but now we've got firm evidence to demonstrate that we have a time at the end and it's much more structured than we ever thought just want us to see that so once we do that then we have to bring by Tyra here revelation 2:20 then we have to introduce the concept of the angel of Thyatira what's he doing it's doing two things brother Mario what's he doing right I didn't hear you no sure sister test what's he doing so he's allowing Jezebel Joe suppose the papal Church to do that work now when it was doing that work back here in 1260 who didn't use who didn't use the Jesuits counter-reformation so she's going to do she's going to use someone to do her work for her but what we've developed is a structure here that's going to create a situation where God's people are in dire straits and that's why we want to see later sia as a separate and distinct experience from Sardis it's not my intention to go into that and develop this line but I just wanted to see us to see it at that simple level later sia is going to be the modern-day experience of the miller right history here it becomes more complex now but as we do this but I just wanna see that in a simple way lay the series what kind of condition worldliness so our church talks about were in a really worldly condition what's the solution what's the solution for worldliness no no no no they won't tell you that missionary works the most obvious one people talk about is 1888 yeah and to get back to our roots if we only listen to Wagner and Jones and did the 1888 thing justification by faith we will look to ourselves look to our families got our house in order stop being worldly stop being nice to one another it all be sorted out yeah so we know that has to be wrong I'm not denying the 1888 message because that's even then that's another story that we would really need to spend time discussing the solution to the problem here for Sardis this worldliness which is identical to lay the series what that is time so when we start thinking about later seer and I'm not drawing this out how it works because it's not as straightforward as this that the solution to coming out of the latest seer condition is time or I'm going to say is prophecy now when we first dealt with this issue we will regard ourselves because we said actually it's not about time it's about events and the premiere event is Daniel 11 verse 40 yeah that's that's when you start creating our reform line I've got it here 1989 and we didn't want to address the issue of time which is why not only an hour has our movement been in a mess and that mess is what lay the same condition individually because we've got all of these good and bad people in and people are going to say this doesn't look like the church driver to me and we can't help but agree with them it's because we haven't understood our message correctly we're calling the church we've always been calling the church - what there's a Sunday Lord that's about to happen I mean it that's been our message and everyone says so what we already know that what are you teaching this more than we already knew and then we've tried to defend our position by having these events and it becomes more and more problematic because after 9/11 we kind of like dry up a bit and we dry up a bit because what happens after 9/11 that we're really going to target and identify it's not that easy becomes problematic and you see whether we liked it or not we've drifted directed why don't we then drift we were directed into time now got 2012 2014 and now we talk about raffia refuse er you know the premiere event for us Toto probation and if I were to ask you what's even going to happen at raffia this confusion we have no idea really what it's going to look like there's speculative ideas this is not a movement we'd really have no clue about what raffia is all we know it's 2015 BC - people thought they had elephants king of the north king of the south that's about it it's pretty vague we have no detailed information that we're currently teaching about raffia so I want us to be aware of that because raffia is imminent so that's the summary of what we've got - so far any questions what I've tried to do is because people from lignin I'll say legitimately although I'm never sure if it's legitimate complain that I don't come to conclusions or to leave people hanging so I've tried to not do that the Lord said that if the persecution wasn't cut short but all would perish how does that fit in to the line that I'm gonna give a really bad answer I'm not God and so I can't answer that what my response is this when we talk about line upon line it's not just saying the 1260 is a line in that history there are multiple things happen in multiple layers and our problem is we're not very good at multitasking because those multiple layers seem to conflict one with another I recognize that because what you're identifying is I've just developed a story that they weren't supposed to stop the persecution and your develop put a line that says if they didn't the whole project would have come to an end the whole great controversy would have finished what I could say is this Babylon roamed papacy had been given a job to do and when they were given that job they go too far and so if they done the job properly they would have kept on going back to their boss and saying is that enough is that any city would say yeah that's enough no more because if you go too far you can to beat my people to death and that was never my intention because it was a scattering and gathering this is the southern tribes with addressing this is not the northern tribes northern tribes when you dealt with the northern tribes when you deliver the blow to them they were annihilated that was fine but when you come to the southern tribes you can't do that you have to hold back and they weren't willing to do that voluntarily so he has to apply leverage to them when the when France began persecution when France began persecution didn't they go against the Catholics and persecute those who had been persecuting the policies yes but they're not doing it because they like Protestants they doing it because they hate God we see the same story being pictured in Ezekiel 37 where they cried the people of God were crying we are cut off from our parts or parts and our bones are dry so when God acts did he kill Candy's bones live he cares responds you could hear this spirit he said lord god the noise because Babylon was so oppressive just the same God had to intervene and you know bring about the promise of restoration for his people we're gonna go into Habakkuk later on we'll pick up in our study but did you go to a backing chapter one it's only read verse 13 picks up a similar theme that sister Levin just brought to view verse 13 113 this is God's people complaining to God they're complaining to God and the people that are complaining are the good people these are the good people that are complaining in verse 13 because there's good and bad people thou art pure sorry thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil and can't not look on iniquity wherefore look is thou on them that deal treacherously and hold this tight tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he verse 13 says God you've got pure eyes and you can't look on iniquity what's the iniquity that they say he can't look at who's doing this iniquity that they say your eyes are so pure you can't look at this kind of iniquity brother James it's a tough question because I'm not giving you context I know people probably scrambling for context you want to see how we read this verse at least give me the arts because that's all I want to do but I want to say how we've read that does enough clued in the verse okay the juice sister Tess brother Daniel rubba Larry sister Rachel Calvin's the babylonians from the book Derek diverse seems like it's comparing hit comparing the you know God's people who are not pure with those who are oppressing them that are there that are more wicked than they are so whose do need equity in this verse when you talk about the second parts the oppressors so pablo knees yeah yep so if you if you read the verse in seating context is the Babylonians that he's talking about and this is in connection with what sister olivine was saying that this punishment is going to be so severe it looks like the nation's going to be wiped out they're not just getting a slap on the wrists they're getting real severe punishment and it's so bad they're now asked it hasn't even happened yet by the way hasn't even happened and really complaining and the complaint is how can a god that has got pure eyes look upon such wickedness how could he allow wicked evil people to do this level of work or criminality to God's own people God you are beautiful than to behold the evil that the Babylonians are going to do and you can't look upon the iniquity of their works therefore wherefore look it's thou upon them that deal treacherously this is the Babylonians when it means where for look is thou take take heed to what the hell treacherous they are and hold this thy tongue when the wicked the Babylonians devour the man that is more righteous than them how you going to stand back and let that happen and God is gonna let that happen Brit see measure so that's part of the answer I would argue about this 1773 because the because Rome is going to go too far much further than it had permission to do sister Kathy was she sinned or do you parallel that with us no her question was paper road he's supposed to hurt God's people punished them for 1260 so when they stopped doing it for 25 years beforehand I thought I've argued they're doing wrong and she say well if they hadn't have stopped before we would have been killed so how do we reconcile those two concepts so I'm saying it's not that straightforward because you've got multiple levels going on we've introduced a subject of France and we've introduced subject of Islam so there's a number of things to factor in this not that straightforward that's why our lying when we see what's going on isn't that easy to to pick up because we can pick up different themes but I guess my response to you would be is because Babylon has gone too far much further than they were supposed to if they just punished in measure they could have gone the whole distance but now she's become drunk with the blood of the saints he's gone too far revelation 17:5 okay have I not for anyone tied up any loose ends that they had that they want me to could we had some issue and still not tied up in my mind maybe you've misunderstood what I said I'm saying we have a message based upon time that's why I'm saying plenty people disagree with that can I ask a question though like we look at this same thing with the heroes of the morning Christ was using different prophecies and combining right is there a prophecy like when we look at how the those engine profit that has been given that's not based on the time is a rhetorical question I presume no I'm because we are of the view that our message cannot be based on time and that has been in or movement it's a mindset so I'm asking the question where in our Bibles ugly seem in God's dealing with its people when he is given a prophecy especially relating to his people that he does not attach an element of time nobody cares about that because because why why don't we care brother but then in the same spirit of prophecy early earlier items she says in the voice of the thunders God gave us the day and the hour that same spirit of prophecy that says no more message on time said God gave us the day and the hour okay I'm not gonna get roped into a discussion on time setting because that's not where I want to go it's there it's a problem in our movement and it needs addressing resolving brother Dan you'll go on another is that's how you find out is that bad go on I mean I don't mind having a cursory discussion about it but you know if we were gonna do this we have to do it properly we have to go back into a sprint across a quote she says third angels message is not to be hung or not to be connected that all with time she's pretty specific about what she's talking about what Thunder okay well how is he connected to time okay so seven times I just want to say justice because we've got people who may not know what you're talking about revelation ten seven thunders verse three these thinks sound and then it says time shall be no longer so that's the once again 14 before you when you talk about this Thunder that said the Danny hour what we're talking what is that place that somewhere on a line one you just referenced you quoted you said there's a thunder that says the Danny our God said that and you just said thunder thunder let's connect them time so I mean that's okay that's what you did yes yeah so all I ask is that passage that you said God thundered and he said the Danny hour where is that in a line but it's not that the point I'm making I know but I told them though I just wanted to factor that in yeah these are my thinking well you you placed that before October yeah so I'm gonna put I'll do our like us because maybe it's easier for us I'll put raffia here put 911 here and you're gonna say it's here somewhere in between all right yeah and you're gonna say this is the midnight cry and you're saying that all Ellen White saying that when she even uses that that phrase when she gives us that phrase is spirit prophecy quite deaf personhood you're marking where she where is she using that phrase you she's using it in this context in the bed the midnight cry for confirmation you don't even know where it is okay you don't even care that was you know the belt there you just want to place it where you on the place it but you want to go to Miller right history and say the midnight cry they knew the day in the hour therefore because the midnight cry is one of the thunders I guess that's what you're gonna say you've got this passage which is the Thunder is one of the thunders and they know the daily house you will make it midnight cry yeah okay yeah so the point was big was not a distraction but okay I was just say that all the way marks it's attached attached to time so even though we say oh we are predicting just events those events those seven thunders I'm pretty sure they I connected time to semi all day because you have tender connected time say and when this is the white says time is no longer if you look to that verse doesn't apply to damn just for 1844 if you can open in second selected message page 105 one second one selected message a hundred and five point one when they say one at 105.1 yeah after 105.1 absolutely said one selected message you do okay so this is a seven BC ninety seventy one as well the book that was sealed was not the book of Revelation with that portion of the prophecy of Daniel which related to the last days scripture says but Thou O Daniel shut up the words sealed the book into time in the end many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased when the book was opened the proclamation was made time shall be no longer the book of Daniel is now unsealed and the revelation made by Christ to Johnny's to come to all the events of the earth by the increase of knowledge of people is to be prepared to stand in the latter days is the same time related to time so when we use the verse to say yo time is no longer we don't have prophetic time we can use the same verse just say that we'd have prophetic time okay and that's in the time of Dan she's applying that to the opening of the literal book and that's 1798 and you were showing at the can meeting that after 1989 we have the gathering time in that's the time that we can use time study so I think anybody want to make a comment ask a question looking at the way Miller and Miller writes looked at at the prophecies and saw time I see that they were looking at that things that were given that that pointed to a very specific date that was in their future and I'm looking at it in hindsight I'm looking at everything and realizing that the time element it's related to time but it's not time like we're saying oh yeah the Battle of Rafi is gonna happen on this date we're looking at it as time because we're seeing all the patterns that God is established with all these things and based on those patterns and things we can see time we can see that God's using time element of time because it's it's related to all the prophecies and the patterns that were looking at to what end it's just patterns what purpose is it's a second witness confirmation I think you know as we talked about and I think it's the effect of every vision I think it's just all pointing to the great transformation here at the end now you didn't say that you may be up maybe you didn't maybe I misunderstood you said we've got these events then now we've got dates attached to them or tied and you're saying this is all like patterns and I'm saying if it to me when you said patterns it sounded like these are second witnesses that that these events are true and you said but we're not doing that with raffia not doing graphic I'm just saying we're not looking at a verse in the Bible and and and coming up with an exact date that's for instance for Rafi yeah so what what if I said that's about what we're gonna do we're going to predict the day of raffia before it happens is that in agreement with what you just said because it sounded different to what you say that we're not gonna do that well if god's gonna reveal that to us then he reveals it to us the right now i don't see that any of us know that information that's not what my question is my question is what purpose is time serving now for us is it just second witnesses the we already knew 1989 then we got a time we only knew 9/11 we've got a time ninety five we've got time we will new oak we knew all of those dates now we just said well we can rubber stamp them because we've got these structures building now all based essentially on 25 20 s and once we do that we say you know our message is now even firmer than it work what then he ever was which would just be the use of time a second witnesses viewing up to this point I may I may not be correct in that you may be that you may not be but those I've asked question cuz it sound like that's what you were saying so I've just asked you everybody don't have to answer is if we just switched and says by the way raffia is going to happen at this year maybe this day or whatever predictive what it's shakers would it scare us the reason why I asked the question is because last time we did that in our movement caused a big disturbance six years ago yeah one other point though I have to just just looking at that human nature if we know a date an exact date there's an element of procrastination that goes in and everybody's going to not prepare until the last minute that's Alan White's argument and above it I'm just saying that if if we know that it's imminent as we all can prophetically understand that it's very imminent speaking of raffia then we know that the time is short but how short is time God knows ok if you're going to develop that argument I've seen your hand what you're gonna do with Miller if you can use the argument the human nature procrastinates and we're not going to saw our mess out until the 21st of October how do you argue against what Miller did because Miller was on a commission from God and God gave him those dates him the movement not the man that mitigates against everything that you've just said their time element was necessary and they never fell into that trap that we won't do anything until sort of the day before essentially that's what that that's the argument it'll always go to and we and Alan White's argument is if we put time into our message we're going to say we'll just cruise along till Friday five minutes before Sabbath and then well then we'll sort the stuff out and she says if you did that that's not what God wants us to do so he's going to keep it a secret so you need to be ready every day but the middle-right line doesn't work on operate on that in fact it's the very element of time don't wake them up that prepares them yeah ok brother so brother laughs obviously time settings controversial and I've been abused two times in settings since 1985 when the 1987 Jubilee movement was going on and I studied this in detail now the statement of Ellen White's where she talks about setting that time too far into the future is really going to be a reality and is a reality from people they're setting a time way in the future saying Jesus is not coming back now it's gonna be 30 years from now and there's lots of people doing that some definite time some just putting it off so per argument there would apply regarding the idea of setting a time now I believe as we approach all of the evidence that points to a specific date could very possibly tell us when the Battle of raffia could occur but it would not be you know 20 years from now that we're gonna be predicting a fate date for the Battle of raffia it would be very much as we begin to approach that as we are so the possibility of that happening I see is very real okay I would we have to have to be unmistakable based upon all the lines and all the evidence all the patterns would have to be there oles only is a lot of stuff yeah and the problem is if we then use that argument all none of us know all so I'm kind of I'm kind of leaning towards not exactly brother Bob's argument bases ready human I don't think we know everything so we're not gonna be able to draw all of this to give this rock-solid answer we're gonna do the best that we can because we're human beings what we're going to do you have to be a good job I agree with that yeah but I was only being pursued with the word all I know what you mean because no one's gonna be able to do all of it because we don't even understand all of it we don't even this still too many things we don't even understand about the line of Christ you know the reformed lines the templates that we have the Miller right line specifically I mean we're just you know looking at these things in a cursory fashion in these classes and I suspect for a number of us these are new ways of looking at them so if you didn't know this perspective how could you develop a logic to say okay it's going to be on this date rafi because we've got some time without even knowing some of these things I'm saying perhaps you could because you don't need to know everything the more you know the more accurate you can be the more sure you can be but yeah so just to add to that since we've had these weigh marks that we've passed that have been based upon time and we all agree with that it would be illogical for these other way marks not to be based upon time that are coming ahead of us they have to be based upon time and some of them we may see we may not understand them completely but we'll see that they're going to be based upon time as well and that's the way in which I see time happening but I don't think that we're going to be time setting in the traditional sense that is you know Jesus is coming back on you know December 31st or whatever whatever year that's not how it's going to be it's these way marks that have been based upon time that we are looking at whether it's Ralphie or Pentium that we will see the time elements in them before they happen because we have now started to recognize the patterns of how God works Larry Bromley and public evangelism it's been said in the spirit of prophecy for 150 years that we need to go out and evangelize the world but the Lord has shown us a different path to define Abraham go sacrifice your son he wasn't supposed to do that because that was a written law so could this concept behind be the same logic I've used that logic people hate it they say yeah I don't care about that logic tell me about this my argument is the lines I think we did it twice so yeah twice not in time but what about the world trump scenario where we were saying troll that that was going out like expecting yourself he said no no I know it's not no we didn't there was people in this movement during that election okay so what's your definition of the movement you're just you just say this wrong question you said solidly let me ask you a question well go back to this one here okay not the time setting but we're just the structure that we have who is this person no I'll sorry no no no no forget that now who is that person nobody nobody it's got a name snow so before we discuss this I didn't even go down here this is not a man when you're gonna get this and bring it to the end of the world would you would you would you say this is a man at the end of the world so you're not going to say it's a man okay so we'll go back here is this man a symbol of the Miller right movement yeah okay who is opposing him here in August but if you wanna pick July I don't mind who's opposing him Miller but not only is opposing him Miller is now going to argue if we have a chance to actually read this Miller's gonna you know what Miller's arguments gonna be ever guess what Miller's arguments going to be what no man knoweth the day in the hour that's ministers argument against snow when he time sets here I'll round it off a bit he says he didn't say it like this we got burned it's that way it's not a very good language in April 1844 we got burnt we're going to learn our lesson and now from now onwards I'm never gonna time sir again he got dragged kicking and screaming to accept this message so like you I don't want to make snow a man at the end of the world and we shouldn't if we're not going to do that are we going to make Miller a man at the end of the world you can't be fair you can't do that either so at the end of the so in this history the movement is not solid if you're going to use that phrase it's not solid on anything plus if we're gonna mark this as August who's actually on board with the time set in a couple of thousand people not many the vast majority of the Miller might mean the right movement aren't even on board yet then really clueless about what's happening they need to be told isn't that right you're going to go out and there and is it fifty thousand or whatever all these people are going to pour into whoever they are I'm not trying to identify who they are I don't think they levites but whoever they are they're going to come in so they don't even know about it and this is a midnight cry so when we start talking about solidly what does solidly has to look like if we've if this movements a thousand people two thousand people do we say we're only going to talk about solidness when all 2,000 of us are on board or there's there have to be a real clash in the movement the movement flying against itself that people are saying this is apostasy and other papers people saying this is the output of the Holy Spirit that's going on here because in this history you've got Miller fighting against no it's not just Miller they shut down the presses upon this man the presses were not allowed to publish his material it was a clampdown so he gets wise and he publishes his own magazine that's like if you're not going to video my presentations I'm going to do my own videos I'm going to get my own YouTube channel I'm going to upload them and this is the movement and the vast majority of me this is not just a like odd people this is Himes and Miller which is symbols of the whole movement the whole press no one is accepting this and we say this was the voice of God or whatever this was the movement doing this so when we come to our history and we stand we want to analyze for instance 2014 and we want to say well that wasn't the movement because we weren't behind it or we want to there were people in our movement that said maybe it's Hillary maybe it's Trump that was based not people who were in them who were represented of the movement that was weak earing and failing men because the movement is too symbolized by a mess by an angel and an angel has four characteristics we'll read that as we go it's purity power glory and wisdom and if you oppose that or you fall out of any one of those four characteristics you become just a normal man what was Daniel was he a normal man or wheezy this angel depends what time of day you ask him it's just the problem is the only record we have of Daniel is when he's on job when he's at work we don't have any record of when he's off work and so we tend to think this man was never earning or anything but he's a normal human being so when we come to our history we should have known it was Trump it was weakness and human frailty that gravitated to Hillary and we did that because we got sucked in to the media hype if we are isolated the insulated ourselves from the newspapers we would have been a lot firmer on that and in that very time period we would have seen that Trump was already going to be or hope a new president in the 2000 presidential elections he would have been president 9/11 2001 but it's a failed attempt and when you can see that story you know that's a prophetic story that's based upon the last seven Judean kings because you can tie into that story there was a lot of prophetic arguments that we knew it would have been Trump above and beyond his richness and all of that stuff it was a moment of weakness we got duped sucked into the media hype when all the polls and stuff will go in and so we didn't want to look silly we didn't want to stick our heads above the parapet that's my version of 2016 in this movement I think we failed miserably by not being firm on Trump whatever Trump was not a issue on time but I'd say the way we view what the movement is we need to be really careful about because when someone stands up and says this is it and we said well that's just one person's voice or whatever Daniel 12:1 you're gonna see extremely I'd I could be wrong on that give one example no brother no sister in this and spoken right now go 370 where she talks about the time setting when it becomes a when the people who are saying you don't know the time those are actually the ones that are in fanaticism because before when they were saying that we could predict the time and it was correct now those are saying speaking out against the movement saying nobody knows the time she's saying that they're miss applying what scripture is saying so they away she's talking about William Miller he's a fanatic now that's what she just said before let me just clarify where William Miller is not a person at the end of the world I can't reiterate that often enough to symbol the movement movement is in disarray until we've heard the voice of God like many waters which gave us the day in the hour of Jesus coming the living sense a hundred and forty-four thousand the priest enough the priest I'm adding to this thank you know and understood device while the wicked thought it was a thunder in an earthquake when God spake the time he poured out as the Holy Ghost in our face began to light up and shine with the glory of God as Moses did when he came down from Sinai and we know that's Pentecost and Pentecost his organization and it says by the time the 144,000 word Oh soup by this time sorry by this time when they heard the voice of God their 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly United so I think time setting when they the day in the hour that's what makes the movement tonight I think that's what's gonna unite us when we predict raffia when we see that's coming I think we are you gonna come with Union message as in the Miller right history when they saw the day the appointed time was October 22 they all came in unity to that and I think the message is what bring us to unity and that message of it is based upon the time of October 22 that for us is rapidly greater I didn't want to make it sound too black I'm glad he did he did that the you know we're gonna have you know some disagreements and things right to the very end there already now there is level of unity if you were in Italy I don't know how many people were in Italy in our class not a few of us anyway or if you watch the videos there was a an atmosphere there which was interesting some of this topics that were brought up were controversial to say the least and if you were there it was interesting to see elder Jess sister Kathy's reactions is there in the back of the auditorium listening to presentations and you don't get a feel of that when you just watch the videos you know because it's all clinical when you're there there's there's some funny things going on and it's not just with them just with other people and then you just talk about a subject and people and no one's objecting to it not one subject into some substantial changes in the way we look at things and not a major amount of evidence is given they're just kind of cursory studies just to introduce into the movement some new ideas new ways of looking at things and people aren't standing up and resisting those things you know in the way that you would expect because resistance has been leveled before people would argue against that some of those things so I don't want to deny the power of the Holy Spirit power of the Holy Spirit I think see at some level came upon that camp-meeting and there was stillness there was quietness there was acceptance of those things there was a really interesting point at one of those presentations were at the end of it LD just stood up and it wasn't recorded because the way the whole system was separately they couldn't even get the audio of it and they I don't think they've kept it on there they cut it off yes yeah it was it wasn't as we could but very badly so they didn't say it's not if you you can't see it on the videos basically and what he was saying basically was you know I've opposed some of these things from the very beginning and he was the premier a poser of that and he just suddenly said sounds reasonable to me not to say like his rubber stamps or whatever be just it sounds reasonable so you know how does that happen because there's no new verses there's no new passages everybody is familiar with them I didn't even go into the anti-time certain quotes just laid out a structure and a line and it seemed reasonable to me that's the power of the Holy Spirit because we're running out of time I just wanted so just want to summarize by this is when we say the movement God seems to me to do things in funny ways ways that we wouldn't expect you know she tells us that she says if it's going to be out of the common order of things when God finishes off his work and we say it means it's not going to go through the regular channels which is the conference system he's going to raise you know independent ministries to finish the work independent ministries use those kind of quotes to justify themselves for their existence all I would say is we need to be careful about how we understand when God gives a message into this movement what we identify as the movement giving a message because I don't think all of us are going to all come together one day and say we had a dream or something and we all got some common message he's never been that way someone stand up and says I think this is what it looks like and people look at it and they say yeah that seems that seems reasonable but sometimes it's not like that sometimes there is this resistance and you know in this history there are people who are saying it seems reasonable but there were plenty people saying it seems unreasonable and just because there's people who say these things that are unreasonable doesn't mean it's not the movement speaking you're gonna ask how does how do we know I don't know the answer to that well I would direct us to is to go to the desire of Ages because chapter 50 page 455 and onwards she talks about a person standing in the middle and he's gonna ask the question who's speaking for God this one or this one you know what is the voice of God and her answer is only those people who are converted can actually know God's voice easy to understand my sheep hear my voice if you're a goat you know only you can't hear whose voice you don't understand it so just based upon that principle the sheep hear his voice only those people who are converted we've got a personal walk with God they will hear the ring of truth they will see some light in that becomes problematic back in that history back in that day where the sunday of 2014 was rejected when we look back now Maya my understanding as I see people talk about that subject is that they see okay if I if I do this this is this is talking about what since the Brahmin was saying today you'll see a study that looks like this agree with that and they say in this is the foundations so if this was the foundations that means God was doing something this is a movement subject so we're now today saying 2014 is part of our message in the movement regardless of how it was created as I understand the point you say back then it wasn't but we now look at 2014 and say 2014 was missed that isn't that is now an established day so if it's an established day how did it become established not when did it become a stable we established it say if we're going to say everybody agrees with it now maybe last year maybe you say 2017 we say but you can't do it that way you can't say it became established just because we accept it now you have to say how was it even created in the first place in the creation of it was problematic so what we need to do is I think is to go back and say well what was happening in that history because you can't say that the movement wasn't creating that date then but now we say actually that was a movement that was a date that the movement is going to accept because if the movements running all through these history it must be the movement that's creating these dates isn't it you can't get an outsider creating a date for the movement they're not the voice of God so however we like the creation of that day it must have been the movement doing that work even though it doesn't to our human eyesight look that way the reality doesn't it look ugly whatever we want to describe it because if we're going to say the movement was doing that work today or it's a movement day it's an established day because we've got ten years of foundation then we must know that it was created by the movement even those humans be humans speaking it didn't look that way sister taste so people really have taken issue with this I guess I'm the one who's pushed this that the movement doesn't make mistakes because they say will you make loads of mistakes and I'm saying yeah that's on a bad day when we didn't put our work hat on we were just at home because we're we can during human beings when we're not listening to God so I've tried to explain that even though people just don't see it but if we argue that that the movement doesn't make mistakes and we're saying here look we didn't make mistakes anywhere along this line isn't that I mean that must be our argument then therefore we say were 2014 isn't a mistake so we have to say well how was it created and the problem everyone had was 2000-2001 was crew was created after the event but he wasn't created after the event it was created in 2001 she still we didn't see it then and 2014 was created when in 2014 is just that we're saying that we saw it before we saw that it was to be created that's the only difference between the two the things get created when they happen so if we say well it's an established date then we ask ourselves a questions well how did we get that how do we how do we how do we recognize that day and the the thing that people struggle with the most that it was predicted and the other ones weren't we're way over time let's pray Heavenly Father we give you praise and thanks for your goodness and your mercy as we grapple individually and as a movement with the subject of time setting help us to not see this thing this subject this doctrine this idea as a fight against the spirit of prophecy not help us not to have this shallow thinking but help us to see how the subject of time relates to the Miller right history help us Lord to understand that history in the clear of fashion so that we can make an application for our own time and in doing that help us to ever be willing to see that maybe we've misunderstood misread spirit of prophecy quotes something seemed clear others are obscure as we gather all of these in spy statements together help us to develop a model that is fit for purpose that can create and lead a movement and father when we talk about the movement help us to hear your voice speaking through human agents who in and of themselves are weak and frail but you can use those people to do your bidding may each of us have a relationship with you so that when you speak we will hear your voice and know it's you that's making these statements be with us in vessels for the rest of this day bless the food that we're to wait Jesus his name I mean