Ceasing of the Persecution p.2




Publish Date: 9/11/2018
Speaker Name: Parminder Biant
Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (09-11-18) Morning - Ceasing of the Persecution _ p.2-T8oZSgPz0Ug
YouTube ID: T8oZSgPz0Ug



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oh man great controversy page 308 paragraph 1 may 19 1780 stands in history as the dark day since the time of Moses no period of darkness of equal density extent and duration has ever been recorded the description of this event is given by eyewitnesses is but an echo of the words of the Lord recorded by the Prophet Joel all 2500 years previous to their fulfillment the Sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and terrible day of the Lord come Joel 2:31 if you turn to the book of Joel so got a little time line here we've got 1782 2500 years he takes us back to 721 721 is connected to the fall of Samaria and we're going to tidy just one two more things in the book of Joel can someone summarize what we said yesterday about this part of our study from Steven was to take a bit ladders right the destruction of there's not any louder sigh the destruction of the temple in 723 a sailor came down so the temple is not destroyed in 723 I was taken captive who's been attacked in 723 let me do a little picture for us Saul David Solomon Jeroboam rear Boehm ten tribes two tribes oh sure Zedekiah right so no one can know the northern kingdom this is not Jerusalem the noise kingdom no this is the south so it's not Jerusalem it's what city mr. Reichel sumeria familiar with that yes so if you carry on what is it it's Sumeria you carry on this urgent summary I can't think right now this okay mm-hmm there's a great great so capital was destroyed in 721 and that's what that's what joel has kind of inferred that would be impossible to happen which is John 1:15 last of the day for the day of the Lord is at hand the destruction from the Almighty and it comes pythons okay value that's right that's that's for the future that's that's a moron yet he's not those 15 outside until one two is that what you're referring to you tell me Nathan sweet dress I was first - yes - yes okay hey this ye old men you hear all the inhabitants of the lines like this meaning your days or even the days of your father's so it seems to be that he's referring to the destruction of Samaria talking to the people in the South who could argue Jerusalem Judea he's making a statement whatever has just happened has never happened before and so we're just doing a brief overview of the book of Job just trying to gain a structure from it and by time you get to 15 he's making a prediction that he said that the work has not be completed yet it's gonna happen the same thing is going to happen to Jerusalem than that has happened to the ten tribes of Samaria the prediction of what's about to happen based upon what's already happened we okay with that we've got 723 721 you said the destruction of Samaria was 721 so easy I say yeah so who can tell us the relationship between 7:23 and 721 Valeri McDaniel I'm not sure the Kathy I think I'm 742 with I know the date okay everybody thrilling week 723 yes sir okay we 723 we've just calculated 721 this is a random date just from this GC quote and 12 1780 and we just went back two and a half thousand years and he does take you to 721 so brother Gregory says 721 is the destruction of Samaria but we normally pick up 723 I'm just asking if people are familiar with in a little bit more detail about that history you know say something if I go to 308 paragraph 1 it says 2500 years I just picked up that 2500 years and went back they take you to 721 put your hand up if you've got 90 X I don't wanna just go around the class and everybody just say no yeah I know my question is we we take 723 and we get 723 and we're going to go take it it's going to bring it to 1798 and we can create a structure of a 25 20 will begin back in 742 and takes us to 1863 we get a nice little chiasm and with identify 721 just from this passage and brother Gregory said 721 Samaria gets destroyed so I'm just asking I didn't ask him directly but it was a vague suggestion that did he mean 721 or did he mean 723 when he said that that the destruction of Samaria and if he made 721 the destruction of Samaria what was what would we be identifying in 723 so he's 721 just a date so if I've got a singular line here so we could have just picked a date here this could have been 17 18 17 18 is a few years afterwards and Joel could have said you know happened a few years ago it's gonna happen to you it's not 17 18 at 7:21 so I'm asking is 7 21 just a random date like 7 18 750 or there's something happen in 721 is there a relationship between 723 in 721 this two-year period that that's what I was asking people if people are familiar because there's a siege and there's the actual taking of the king there's a taking of the city we familiar with that history and the 7:21 play into that that's what I was asking how family we are with that okay so brother Theodore gonna just run us through this well in Sango to put 723 yep in 721 and you tell me if I need to put anything else well we're told that in the fourth year of hezekiah which is the seventh year of Hoshea a-- that the siege begins okay so where do I put the seventh here yes okay so I'm gonna run two lines so this is the fourth year of Hezekiah and this is the seventh year of Hoshea and this is the C yeah and then it says at the end of three years which is in the ninth year of Hoshea a-- so one two two three and it says it's the sixth year of Hezekiah that Samaria is taken talk about destroyed destroyed yeah yeah so someone find the path see these are in second Kings get someone else to me okay when he can look up to find that what word did you search how do you know who's they we do what he knew okay so you you you haven't says okay so you could have picked up Hezekiah and the sake that they that's a keyword you could have picked up and then you would have found the rest of the verses okay so you so you just already had it so brother Theodore yeah and if you look up Hosea he's very rarely mentioned so you can also find it quite easily reference it so well the other one is the first one well the first one was seventeen second Kings 17 second Kings 17 four to six that's this one um yes it it talks about that there it also talks about the ninth year so it mentions the whole thing okay in second Kings 17 verse 26 then in 7 second Kings 18 verse 9 to 11 9 to 10 so that's the one where it says Samaria was taken that's why I use that okay so these are two passages we need yeah and yeah Samaria was taken which means it was that's when it was destroyed yeah I know I know you want to put it here yeah it's just that this one actually goes there as well yes not just that one in vain we take a break on any other verses not that I can think of so will those retail are issues and then you tell if we need to think of anything else so that second king seventeen oh she's 4 to 6 I'm going to go to first one that's where he gets picked up second King 17 one in the 12th year of Ahaz king of Judah began ho shear the son of Allah to reign in Samaria over Israel 9 years so I'm just going to put that in and who is a has yep his relationship to Hezekiah so we've got the twelfth year of a house he's going to be the 12th year of Ahaz king of judah began ho sheared the son of ely terrain in samaria over israel nine years so what we going to put here that's his 12th year what we're going to put it right this is host year sorry summer says it's something not a date okay so most people are going to put the first there and Bertha Theodore's going to say it's not the first the Ascension you so there's that there's that subtlety that the numbers won't work out you put the first so we'll put the Ascension year it's not quite the first okay so that's just first one it's verse four to six that we want to look at and the king of Assyria found conspiracy in Hosea four he had sent messengers to so king of Egypt and brought no present to the king of Assyria as he had done year by year therefore the king of Assyria shut him up and bound him in prison then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land and went up to Samaria and besieged it three years in the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria and carried Israel away into Assyria and placed them in hailer and in-hae bore by the river of go zone and in the cities of the meat so where do we mark verse 4 where you might look mock verse for brother Theodore um well that's in 723 so you're gonna mark that the same you bet he's gonna go to Samaria take the key first and then besiege the city so do we know the history of that they go out to the king go out to war because you don't you don't me bc some something because you can't take it siege in the spring because just before harvest that was my question your question he's received your city because you can't take the city other way you just go in and take it right but oh yeah normally you and Samaria is a very difficult city yeah so how would you take in the king at the same time that he's besieging did they speak English that come out that's yeah yeah so the King goes out because the army comes in before the harvest the king realizes if they sit in the city they can get starved out so normally the king will go out and surrender and say look I'll give you whatever you want just don't destroy the city let me still be king and in this case with Toshiya he was taken captive and Samaria besieged the city so the King comes out the city gets taken the city resists he doesn't give up and then he besieged it three years what we're gonna do inclusive reckoning no what you have is when it says yes in a sense you're doing occlusive when it says three years right that's inclusive but at the other one when it says at the end of three years that's referring to the beginning of the third year because there's two ends of the year the first end in the second end so yeah there is inclusive reckoning because it's the fourth year in the sixth year so it's obviously two years the 7th and the 9th that's two years so in a simple sentence yes okay any questions on that so I just wanted to have a brief I love your structure of that passage and there has to be connected to it because we don't really think of 7:21 just want us to see that the 721 wasn't just some random date that we generated from two and a half thousand years going back from 1718 he and he just happens to be 721 so can we all go away and just replicate I'm not really too much about this one but just about this the relationship between 723 721 the King's taken before the city is besieged the cities besieged two years three years but it goes from the seventh to the ninth and it's talking about the seating and the destroying anything else he's everybody okay with that just that just a brief overview of the history of how it would have worked yeah he's the King taking 723 or 721 that's why I asked a question because if you go to verse 4 the king the Assyrian King found conspiracy in pashya because her shia has broken his alliance is not really there lies hid slavery to the king of the north and he's gone to Egypt for assistance and he no longer pays tribute to the king of Syria as he had done before therefore the last part the verse the king of Assyria shut him up and bound him in prison so it seems to me that that shutting up he's not the seed she's actually taken to prison somewhere so he must have then verse 5 then the king of Assyria came up throughout the land and went up to Sumerian besieged it for three years so he's putting into prison before the siege so I I'm not familiar enough with the history so I asked both Theodor it does he get taken somewhere here they could have been in the fifth year of Hoshea you could could have gone to battle and he says no it's actually in the seventh year so they're going up to Samaria how she comes out tries to negotiate terms or maybe even to fight I think you said negotiate terms because he knows it's a it's a failed cause and the Assyrian King isn't having any of it he's he's lost only this chance is so he takes him in takes him to prison takes him captive and then what you'd normally expect is that the city would just surrender because they've lost their king but in this situation the city doesn't it resists and it says we're going to fight we're going to continue to fight so the siege begins and then it lasts the twos and then he takes the city and the year that you become the king we don't know depends on on what system you do when you take this you the seat first of all in that year often it's not considered to be the first year until you get to like January the first or the official start of the year so if you became King partway through a year so if we were going to mark the years like this like just one two three four five if you became king here they wouldn't say this is your first year of being king because what they're gonna do is they're gonna might actually mark like January the 1st with a year's start and then say this would be your first if I could say like this your first official full year and this part year that you're reigning where you began he's called the Ascension you they wouldn't do it like we would normally do like this would be your first yeah sometimes it will be called the first year but it would be included in the first year so something may happen to me when a king a seeds to the throne but he's not gonna start his second year he's just gonna continue on his first year when the new year star so them that can happen to what you say does that make sense attention so and technically it's X accession year except that yeah so this would be the accession year and I'll be first full year and bro theater just said that sometimes they do this yeah yeah because they don't want to actually have the term accession in Hebrew they don't have a term for the accession year so sometimes they'll just call it when he begins to rain and it'll be translated sometimes as the first year of his reign we said on at the beginning of the siege was it Jose I went out to surrender and he was taken and the city resisted for three years right um what did he where do you get that first part from that he actually surrendered first for he gets taken to prison gets bound and put in prison I must say I know I'm not saying I don't know that he's to be way that to say that he surrendered my question was does he go out to war or does he just go out to surrender either way he gets taken before the siege begins is that how you'd read that he gets put into prison and been he was then the king of Syria you see geez the city okay the only reason that the only way that I would see that is because it says then in verse 5 yes so my question was saying I just lost brother Theodore because I presume he's looked at that history see why actually happened he said he went out and tried to negotiate terms of surrender ain't too late and that would be the normal practice when you become when a king comes surround your city you would normally need to try to negotiate terms sometimes you might try to just fight fight it out but normally you try to negotiate because it's basically a protection racket yeah so to meet wasn't so much whether or not he fights or not vices that he's taken before the city at the end he's taken captive all right the end yeah he's 721 yeah so that's why I was asking a question because what you do then is you breathe into it but the prison was the siege he sort of like held as a prisoner in his own City is that what you think that means before we eat that wailing you okay so again just an observation we may not realize that but you can see it now when we mark the twenty five twenty we're not marking the destruction of the city we're marking the siege runway but we're also so the other question was you know I asked when was the King taken was he thinking you know in his fifth year or six if we marking 723 and gets taken then so we're marking the the year that the king is deposed was actually no longer officially the king because he's taken captive and it's very clear to see that's what we're marking seven to it at the beginning the twenty five twenty not the city that's being destroying itself I know every implications that had I'm not sure why and I don't want all that up to the class maybe but what I've tried to share those the twenty five twenty with with certain people they will want to try to argue that it's not seven twenty-three that it's 722 and I don't know I don't know the history well enough to be able to you know share with them why we say it's 723 but there's that there's certain group within adventism that look at it and say oh well it was 722 so that they're a technicality wanting to say that our math doesn't work oh don't know why they say that though I didn't know that the reason they say that is that's an old date and so they'll just pick any old date that contradicts 723 they don't really care whether it's established or demonstrated by modern archaeology or anything else but the date is 721 and that's confirmed by astronomy so yeah I just understood it existed it's just basically an argument that people had yeah I don't know what validity attached okay you know if you didn't know if it wasn't important it wouldn't make much as much of a difference would it no if I said when did King so begin to reign we'd say I don't know 693 maybe 695 what difference does it make a couple of years either way doesn't really make any difference until we start making a prophetic line and then it becomes critical so I think you know whether it was 721 722 go to Jones 80 Jones when he comics on this I think he things up 721 but if you don't have an agenda it doesn't really matter what that you pick up yeah so that's that's where all those dates come and then when you look carefully you pick up 721 then you can go to 723 and then it becomes specific so if you want to argue against the structure then you can use just has been stated you can just pick up or someone else says 722 and their arguments are just as valid as your argument because they're just as clever as the next person brought it up is because we're stuck we're talking about this right now and it's something I've already run into and I've been trying to share with other people who are obviously are setting their minds against the message and I'm sure those same people wouldn't accept GC 308 or whine like this is just a random two and a half thousand years it could have been two and a half thousand and one year or four thousand nine and I don't know it's just a random thing they would say and we say we'll take it literally as red you know and it just happens to be said like you what do you want okay yes that sound like a no tell me what you don't get the reason I ask this because this is the simple version it gets a lot more complicated I want us to at least all of us to go away with the simple version and the simple version is I want us to see the two days I want us to see that we pick one date which if you think about it maybe intuitively we should have pick 7:21 when you destroy the city when it's all finished but we're picking 7:23 beginning of the siege the taking of the king anything else you don't that you're not sure about okay sister from me how did you had your hand up getting hard of hearing and you could share with my brother you have fire we can't hear you it affects people all the way across the world if you can party house bakery and watching these presentations and they can't hear and the way these class is structured is that I'm not going to repeat what your question is so 30 40 percent of the class people can't hear what's what's being said and you just underneath that mic this Sunday yeah this Sunday we're gonna have it's not in the schedule you see it's it's at one o'clock on Sundays okay please attend yes I'd agree with that if people didn't catch that you know as a 70 talks about the head and he says the head of scenario is the king of the city of Samaria that's the point you're making but you want to make the point that Samaria is also a country it's not just a city and the head of the country is the city of Samaria as well so when you take the city here you've taken the country when you have taken the king you've taken the city it works both ways okay I'm gonna move on if we're okay with that just want to just do refresh our minds it if we'd heard or if we hadn't for the first time 721 723 so Joel's going to come in he's gonna say seen the destruction of Samaria that's what's headed your way if you're not careful just want to add one more point I don't want to turn this into a twenty five twenty study but in 721 things have not finished in Samaria in northern tribes they haven't been fully dealt with yet there's still a little bit more to go they take the king they take the city but they haven't cleared the whole land of all the people there's still more to happen so just want to add that in that the Assyrians are basically going to wipe out the whole nation and it hasn't quite happened in 721 years they're going to do more history to come sorry you briefly I know you already do this online but you know when Joel Papa sighing like okay so we've read through our weight paragraph 11780 we haven't actually gone into the votes I want to pick up a few things in the verse in the passage from great controversy it says the Prophet Joel spoke two and a half thousand years before that so I've got 1780 I went back two and a half thousand years and if you just did the plain mass it take you to seven twenty but we know there's this anomaly that there's no year 0 so you actually end up going to 721 so book a Joel I'm saying just simply has been written in 721 in 721 which was two years after 723 so if we were just to say simple 25 20 this is where the destruction happens little bit afterwards Joel stands up and he says to the people in the south have you seen what's happened to your brothers up there the same thing is about to happen to you if you don't get your house in order so that was the simple overview that we did then in this morning's class I was asking is 7 21 just a random day is it sort of just like any one of these days that would happen here before this event that after this one there's like a window of opportunity here where Joel could have written this at any time and the answer is no 7 21 is a prophetic date that's all I wanted to pick that's why that's why this we spoke about it now so we set up this little structure here it's not germane irrelevant to the study itself but often when we do 2520 studies we never think about 7 21 we just do close approximations we just say Samaria is Samaria is destroyed the 10 tribes are destroyed 7:23 and we kind of move on so I'm just I'm just highlighting that when you look a little bit closer it's not that straightforward we're picking up the siege we're picking up the taking of the King and that would be a second argument to say that the king is taken here not beforehand if you see if you're under Steve at logic so did that answer your question about where we how we get in this 721 structure yeah sister promise one two three they're two years three because it says in verse something 1717 I can't even read eighteen midweek which first verse 5 verse 5 not part of the verse and besieged it three years face of three years I just read 18 verses 9 and 10 and it came to pass in the fourth year of King Hezekiah which was the seventh year of Hoshea a son of the king of Israel that shall manie's RV kingdom of Syria came up against the myriad beseech thee we've got the seating with the fourth in the seven first eight and at the end of three years they took it me even in the sixth year of Hezekiah that is the ninth year of Hoshea a king of Israel Samaria was taken good go to verses 11 and 12 I guess I would've made it 18 9/11 because I think mercy that really says he's connected to 18 we've got nine if accurately it's nine and ten they're the two years but if you went to second king seventeen for four to six 46 verse six talks about the carrying away - hey lar and hey boar and that's covered in verse 11 so make sense yeah so if you're gonna if you wanna parallel the passages you conclude 11 so I and I don't I don't think that's a that's a coincidence that you've got forty six and nine eleven there if you're willing to say that and it's the ninth year of house year someone was telling me about number nine yesterday got lots of nines day okay and then come back to Joel verse 15 is the prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem they have an opportunity to not be destroyed basically they have an opportunity to extricate themselves out of this mess it's kind of at one level it's a bit late because Manasseh is already born now isn't he is he born yet or not days not born years II know so there's still an opportunity for them not to mess up that he's Hezekiah Hezekiah listened and just died as he was instructed to everything would have been okay but he's not going to he wants extra life we could do nice I guess moral story about that being obedient to God he says sleep will he'd sleep he doesn't so he wants this is gonna have this son and once it happens it just goes bad chapter 2 from 1 to 11 this is the destruction of Jerusalem you can pick that up from verse 1 to 1 blow ye the trumpet in Zion sound an alarm in my holy mountain that all the inhabitants of the land tremble for the day of the Lord cometh for it is nigh at hand we then saw based from story chapter 1 I just forgot to say this verse 2 and chapter 1 verse 15 verses 2 and 15 we mentioned this yesterday and where did we go for that which bible passage did we go to so we went to Jeremiah chapter 50 verse 17 again you can pick up this verse with either making it Manasseh and Zedekiah or how she ran Zedekiah so I'm making an application and it's the Syrians that begin to do the work of destruction and it's going to end with the Babylonians so we we've picked that up and just making sure we haven't missed anything else so as I say there's your salon that's going on and then it's going to describe essentially the destruction of Jerusalem up to verse 11 that's all predictive verse 12 is the call or the solution to make sure this doesn't happen we're in joke story what did I say Joel 2:12 therefore also now says the Lord turn you even to me with all your heart and with fasting and with weeping and with mourning friend your heart and not your garments and turn unto the Lord your God for his gracious and merciful slow to anger and of great kindness and repenteth of repented him of the evil so there's an opportunity for them not to experience what their brothers have the ten tribes and then we mentioned so we had Jeremiah 50 verse 17 so I'm gonna just gonna put it this way this is the Alpha and this is the Omega and we okay conceptualizing it like that the Assyrians and then nebuchadrezzar the two lines who have come and eaten God's people it's going to happen with some area and then Jerusalem we made an observation the once these people these agents or the tools in God's hand have completed their work what tends to happen right they stop doing it so we'll leave which Bible passages we going to with Isaiah chapter 10 in Isaiah chapter 10 what see nearly self-exaltation and once the egg location happens after they've completed their work in fact if you actually go through Isaiah 10 we're not going to turn that mean the fact that you go to Isaiah where is Isaiah in history in this line here will replace Isaiah let me ask you another question where would we place Babylon ruling in this line if you simply okay yeah so our place Babylon here I know we can begin it beforehand when you get your way Kim and there's this progressive work there's a poor Babylon here in Isaiah 10 it's speaking about Babylon is look yeah pick them out know itself invitation and where's Isaiah who kills Isaiah I think most of them know that sorry yes so Manasseh kills Isaiah and this is how Shia this is Hezekiah and Manasseh is his son so I'll put it here so when when NASA rains all the 10 tribes are already taken out so if you go to Isaiah 1:1 the vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of uzziah jotham ahaz and hezekiah kings of Judah so he tells you when his ministry is he ministers under 4 kings so it was Isaiah his son and his son and then his great grandson I think so you've got four kings there that's that's this is Isaiah so when I say is right in chapter 10 remember all of this is predictive it hasn't happened yet the Babylonians haven't raised themselves up and said where the saw shaking the man's hand this is all predictive of what's going to happen in the future so right way back here while Isaiah is predicting the destruction of God's people he's also predicting the destruction of the Babylonians that is going to occur afterwards so it's all laid out the destruction of God's people here and then the destruction of the Babylonians so he's laid all that out and he's going to tell us why and the reason is because the Babylonians going to exhort themselves we okay with that and so what we normally do is if we go to this line here which is the 1260 papacy Mystery Babylon revelation 17:5 we say that she receives her deadly wound here the papal Church because of self exhortation as well yeah she says I'm not going to sit as a widow no one can touch me and gods going to say we'll see about that because of all the things that she's done she just goes overboard you know God whatever God wanted her to do like you know hurt my people but don't go too far I don't know she just goes way overboard as he's gonna get punished because of cellphone rotation so in Joel chapter 2 there's this call for repentance this is verses 12 to 17 and then you get to verse 18 then will the Lord be jealous for his land and piteous people yeah the Lord will answer and say unto his people behold I will send you corn and wine and oil and you shall be satisfied therewith and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen but I will remove far off from you the northern army and will drive him into a barren land and desolate with his face toward the East Sea and his high depart to all the utmost sea and he stinks shall come up and his ill savour shall come up because he hath done great things so what's being predicted here sister Rachel so you understand verse 18 paraphrase verse 18 okay when it says the Lord will be jealous for his line wins that me I don't know how to describe that kid what is jealousy I'm not going to let you just get away with not doing it and move on to someone else I'm gonna walk us through the first together so don't just say you don't know because I'm not going to let you go that easily okay so we tell me what jealousy is doing this because I know you can do it that's one ways jealousy covetous or so give me an example of colors because some people may not even be familiar with walk backwards you can see probably harder than jealousy it's a give me justice simply go watch something that's not yours or too okay to watch something that's not yours okay but say this pen is mine so it is mine and you want that so you could be jealous because I got paid but if you stole that could I be jealous and my jealousy based upon what that you and so the jealousies we just desiring accompany things that don't belong to you they can also be things that do belong to you okay with that so let's go back to the first day so what is God jealous of his land this is I will be jealous for my land so God owns the land and he says I'm jealous for my leg so in the context of that jealousy the inference is what what's happened someone's stealing his leg so I'm just trying to at least trying if they haven't done it almost trying to mess around with his land and he says I'm gonna be jealous from while I'm okay with that and then he says I would have pity on my people as well so what would you think is happening in verse 18 that he's jealous about his land who wants his land the enemy so someone asked the question about you know some verses this was revelation 12:14 converse he sort of seemed to infer that God's protecting his people another mercy seems to say God's initiating on with this hurt so if you wait to this whole story here got behind all of this isn't he here's the one that's afflicting the punishment he's the one that's hurting these people because they're not been obedient and then the other hand he's saying actually I feel jealous that these people have taken my land because he's taking only shoe coffee so he keeps on flipping from these two different perspectives wonder his and I don't know an aggrieved master like to the people you've been playing around with my land and everything's going wrong and then these other story that these enemies have taken in yeah so so we have to we factor that in that based upon their response is how he's going to behave that's just 18:19 yeah the Lord will answer and say to his people behold I will send you called wine and oil and should be satisfied therewith and I will no more make you reproach among the heathen what's that those same he will I don't know what the corn and wine and oil represent but he thanks for grabbing the land it crops restore there okay and why is he gonna do that first part of the verse where do they call upon him you just told us a minute ago former vertices from first twelve on reason if you call upon me I will answer you and then I will restore and then behold I will send corn wine and oil and you shall be satisfied with and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen that last bit a reproach among the heathen transport if one level depending on how you look at the whole situation about God playing both sides in innocence I see that God himself he knows what he's doing but in a simple sense almost seems like he's conflicted because he's loath to punish he doesn't want to punish and yet he allows the punishment because he knows during that punishment it's actually providing mercy for God's people to say to call upon him because they realized they're not in the right relationship anymore to be able to call upon him so then he can actually execute righteousness in them and if you look at the corn wine and the oil though literally it represents that I see because there's always a three-fold right there I see that in order for God's people when I call upon him to be meant to be made right with him that we live in right standing in or that to happen it ties directly symbolically was the three angels message and the purification of God's people horrible good penny this I think you're saying it's a land you said you've got a penny and you give the penny and then you get jealous because she's got that penny that you tell me how verse eighteen goes so the reason why I'm struggling with it is because the land is just sitting there it's unoccupied the way you described it with your parable you've given it over to somebody else and then you're jealous after you've given it God's given a to the community and then he gets jealous giving it to it he says I wanted that so no Einstein Einstein how do you understand that the bursting that's what I'm asking okay where you do cuz it just says land but I wasn't able tiny parable I didn't understand it no I got that I understand that you don't agree with with my interpretation so I'm asking you how do you interpret that passes how do you read that that's what I'm asking not how I do how are you doing it but he's going to restore the land the jealousy bit he's going to be jealous for he's like you he wants something better for his land and what character has okay anyone else let's go to the back of chapter one I've opened my versions might not be correct but they'll say I've got it I'm open to being corrected on that back at chapter 1 verse 6 for though I raise up the Chaldeans that bitter and hasty nation which shall march through the breadth of the land to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs peril histories so I'm saying that land isn't barren the land is under possession ownership of the Chaldeans they no own that man and however we're going to read the historical fulfillment of this he said they're going to take their dwelling places they're going to possess them so even though we can get to other passages where the basically the land is just cleared of all the people because all going taking the Babylon then that only becomes like a desolate place there is this concept that the Babylonians have no ownership of that also control 220 restoration we've got Joel to 20 restoration I do want to pick up that you know they don't have to go into captivity didn't have to happen they could have chosen beforehand not to so this pad these three packages here I've know I've not seen how to read them I think they could have been read or interpreted even fulfilled that the Babylonians never Babylonians never took the land you know if someone's eyeing up your property you could people you could feel jealous about that but we know that they do take the property they do take the land so I wanted this to think about verse 20 so this is 220 restoration but I will remove far off from you the northern army and then we'll drive him into a barren land into a land barren and desolate with his face to all the EC and his hind apart toward the utmost sea and he stinks shall come up and he's ill savour shall come up because he has done great things so what does it mean I will remove far off from you the northern army chase just the first part of that verse I guess the northern army is oppressing them so they just so the northern armies are pressing them so they're leaving the northern army is leaving yet mr. Bromley I can't hear you what does it mean that they were removing the northern army yes he's going to take their cap captors away from us he's going to take their captors away from them no longer be held captive so say no longer be held captive to the northern army he's not what you just said there's going to take their captors away from them yes okay so he's gonna take the captors away from them when you say from them where are we when we say take them from them where is the them do you understand my question where is that geography sister Cathy Babylon brother James Jerusalem sister Cathy why you say Babylon he says Jerusalem I was reading at verse 20 is the destruction of as the destruction of Babylon sister Bromley you've got another choice but someone says Jerusalem someone says Babylon how you read that before you answer what was the first what was that what was your arms up when I asked what the first part of the verse mean your paraphrase was so he could take them away from them and I'm asking whether them is so so that they means Jerusalem okay you can make it the land just I've just got the two cities because Babylon the country as well as a city so you're saying you root for them yes brother James why did you ruin them well if Joel is practicing in 721 the Jerusalem hasn't been deceased or destroyed yet and in the verses of saying what is going to happen but it also says in verse 12 turn you to me with all your heart and then starts it starts showing us what will happen if they change the direction that they're going to so they don't even have to be taken captive at this point so the armies that would be coming to them if they were repentant the Lord would repulse so the armies that are coming to you the viewers we've pulsed them that's the first part of verse 20 yeah this is the Cathy well I guess I'm still seeing the destruction of Babylon brings in cyrus which brings in the restoration so what we haven't done is looked at these chapter 1 verse 4 these four insects and all of that we never looked at any of that now what we've been focusing on is this destruction of Jerusalem remember I did this this destruction of Jerusalem so we could argue that the Babylonians I put the Babylonians here I'm going to be doing their thing here when just like they're destroyed Samaria they're going to now destroy Jerusalem but we know that the Babylonians have actually subjugated God's people long before this we know that yes so you know you can either pick it up from a nasa maybe that's a little bit too early because this is still the Assyrians but if we think about the Babylonians for certain by time you get to Joey akin that's an easy one to see when you join a kin this is Daniel 1:1 the third year of job where Kim Nebuchadnezzar's going to take all these princes captive so the fact that they're able to do that is suggesting what that they've already got sister Brahma they've already got these issues back cavity they've already got at some shape or some level possession of the land they've already controlling because people even before they destroy the city it's already there so if they had got their act in order I don't know you know we could argue that by time you get to join Kim it's too late well we could argue by time you get to jour her he came the way Jeremiah pleads with these kings Kim King Zedekiah he seemed to get the impression that this would not have happened if these Kings had listened that that final instruction would have happened they would have extricated himself out of that problem so this repentance here even though we're marking in 721 it could have happened in any time post that and the destruction still would have happened so dispossession by these babylonian kings is already here and verse 18 to 20 could have all what could have been fulfilled in this history because they're already subjugated the land and if god's people repent which is the point that brother bob brought up the only reason he's hurting his people is not to destroyed them it's to redeem them that's the whole purpose of this punishment isn't its Redemption so he wants to redeem his people they're in trouble he says if you follow verses 12 to 17 then I'll be jealous of my land and I'll get rid of the Babylonians and he would have got rid of them in this history they would have been left free so that doesn't happen the destruction of Jerusalem happens and now they're in Babylon and then what's going to happen after the 70 years which is the story that sister Cathy is bringing up then you're going to get this restoration and that's going to be done through a different vehicle now now the Medes and Persians are going to get involved but they're still going to be restored so here what do they need to do verses 12 to 17 need to repaint if you miss that window of opportunity if you were if God was like us would just say too late now you had your opportunity not going to give you another one but what does God do he says okay we'll take you to the land of the Babylonians and there what you have to do there you're going to repent and if you repent then what I would have done here I'll do here so I've kind of run out of space so we'll put the Medes and Persians here and this is the restoration he would have done restoration here if they would have repented but they don't but when they repent here then he's going to have this restoration so these passages I'm saying they could be applied however that history would have worked out does that make sense if they had listened the verses would have been applicable they would have been taken out when they don't listen and now they're taken to Babylon that's the the problem that brother Graham was having because if we're if that if they're here then would you agree that the land isn't barren yeah so it would diverse it would work that way for you but when they're here the land is barren it's wiped clean but then I brought her back at one five or six I can't remember which one it did six the land even though it is barren it's the dwelling places are now under the possession of the Babylonian so they still got the land and now when God when God's people repent he says now I'm going to be jealous that the Babylonians have taken my property now I want it back from them the Babylonians aren't going to give it back so he's going to have this restoration so I just wanna say that we could applied this passage both ways right about the reason the reason why you may be the land was desolate nobody was up it was literally occupying it but it was under the possession of the Babylonians is because because of the the God's people weren't letting the land rest and that's why the 70 year captivity took place so the land could rest for all the Sabbath's that they'd years that they didn't allow it to rest her in the previous 490 years so there's a prophetic reason why the land was desolate and not inhabited basically for 70 years but I'm not sure if you have repentance between Manasseh and Zedekiah maybe a role but in second Kings 24 verse 3 and 4 talks about what Manasseh did and his sad night you're gonna be punished for that so there's not a option for Cobra Cobra stream for so I don't know if we have repentance there I think it's already established after a monastic that they're gonna be destroyed and we're in the history of Jehoiakim that's where you took us to second Kings 24 if you go if you go if you have marginal readings if you go back to the previous chapter at least mr. Joker why time to get joy Kim it's too late yeah that's what you're that's what you're suggesting if you go back usually after Manasseh because it says yeah because of what Manasseh did he say if you go back to Josiah yeah it's Huldah the prophetess that also tells him the same yeah brother well there's a 70 year period from Annette Manassas taken captive to in Daniels taken captive and they were given an opportunity there to repent during that 70 years so it's not true that there was no chance for repentance there was things were still going to happen there was still gonna be consequences but it wouldn't have been what happened later yeah I'll first started I'm not saying they they can retain themselves but it's fresh its traction okay so we can't repair if I understand what brother Theodore's saying and if he gives me the license as they were do a proximate and there's another 70 years here so in this 70 years this is Manasseh to Kim and if this was Zedekiah to Cyrus where you wanted what you want to put los zetas Chi it's 49 years from Zedekiah to Cyrus I know you want to do that this was to say the proximity back okay well this okay really approximate yeah so here the the land is in captivity the Babylonians have subjugated God's people through okay with that so they're in captivity and they're in captivity here and if they repent here if they repent here in this history if they repent then they would have saved themselves a total destruction of the city but they can't avoid what's already happened once they reached this stage and the cities destroyed then they go into the Babylonian captivity once this has happened then they're in captivity and if they repent then they can have a restoration as well so the passage is what could have been fulfilled both ways I think that's what brother Theodore is saying yeah yeah so and the passage that you picked up from second Kings which says basically it's too late what it's too late is not this is too late this is too late because I think you are suggesting by the time you get to here this is to lay so we I didn't even read the passage let's let's go to 2nd Kings 24 second Keys 24 verse 3 so I'm going to pick up from verse 1 in his days this is joy hire Kim Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up and took to Jolla Kim and you're hiking became he serve in three years then he turned and rebelled against him and the Lord sent against him all these different nations bursaries surely at the commandment of the Lord came this upon Judah to remove them out of his sight for the sins of Manasseh according to all that he did so this is saying that the punishment that's coming upon God's people from Jahi akin is all based upon the sins of Manasseh and also for the innocent blood that He shed so he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood so you want to do this brother Theodore is that what you want to do who you said why is it Akai yeah yeah yeah so you want to pick Kim and Kim too 70s yeah so better yeah okay so I lost second Kings 24 and also for the innocent blood that He shed for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood which the Lord would not pardon so how are you reading that but before you do that let me just respond to sister Brahmans question so we'll see if this is correct or not I'm saying in this history here if they had if the Jews had got their house in order then the destruction wouldn't have happened because if that's not the case to me Joel chapter 2 doesn't make any sense he's predicting the destruction chapter 2 verses I know three to eleven and then he says but it doesn't have to happen if you repent I'm saying that if they've repented in this history then the rest of the history wouldn't have happened and the Babylonians would have been ejected because they're in captivity they've got the land here they've only got the land they would have been thrown out and that's verse 20 where sister Bronwyn said I'm going to take your captors and move them away from you or them I think it was to them which is Jerusalem so you're gonna stroke them out so that would have happened here they would have been thrown out now when that doesn't happen then they're going to go into captivity here they're actually gonna be taken out of their land and sent to Babylon and if they repent here in this history while they're in captivity then these verses would have been fulfilled here after the captivity so I'm suggesting verse those verses could have been applied at two different levels if you miss this one you're going to get this opportunity that's that was the basic overview that I said so now you said second Kings 24 verse four and also for the instant blood that he said the feel Jerusalem with innocent blood which the Lord would not pardon so by the time you get to here which is why brother Theodore didn't want me to put there the Chaya he's by time you get to hear God saying now we're not in this phase now we're in this phase and once you're in this phase now it's I'm gonna put Kim kin and Zedekiah by the time you get to kin this is now inevitable by time you get to Manasseh and what he does this is inevitable but this is not inevitable is that reasonable so if we did that then it becomes important not to make this Zedekiah because if you don't see that it's Kim what what you then suggest is that you could have kin and still their captivity wouldn't happen during the destruction wouldn't happen you could get two Zedekiah and the destruction wouldn't happen Ferg Theodore than brother Bob yeah so Manasseh to jaha Kim is the first seven times it's a period of time which they have time to repent in and then it's followed by the second the second begins that period of 70 years now they can still repent because in each of those seven times it says if you're not reformed by these things I will do this but there's still a consequence once that second seven times begins it's told you know Jeremiah tells them you have to still stay here for 70 years they could have put off some of the consequences again once that captivity had begun a couple years later Jeremiah tells them that they're going to have to stay there for 70 years okay so this is why they're still living in Jerusalem or afterwards after Daniels taken captive yes and they send you got people funny durations some of them are yes some aren't it's a progressive progression yet gonna happen as they enter into that period they are still given opportunities for certain types of repentance one is they're supposed to submit to the king of Babylon but it says they're still gonna have to stay there for 70 years no matter how much repentance they have they can't put off the 70 year captivity the land has to rest okay hide the book just a general question you talked about the first 70 in the second seventy not that they have to be exactly seventy year periods but is the first day off these ones all now I've done I've done it accurately I think okay so is this is the first 70 is their captivity by a Syrian and then the second captivity is by the Babylonians I'm just yeah I guess you'd say that it's not that straightforward because somewhere tucked into here is call kamesh and then the king of the north is gonna transfer from the Assyrians to the Babylonia it's not that straightforward because maybe we would say it this way I think you've heard the phrase or turn parallel kingdoms you've got the Assyrians coming down the baboon's goat Babylonians coming up by the time you get to this place the Babylonians are fully established and these sermons are fully down but there's this transition that's going on there simplistically we would say yes the Assyrians and the Babylonians king of the north king of the north and that would be Jeremiah 50 verse 17 thank you even though it's a bit more complex than that so I can we'll leave it there we'll recap this afternoon hopefully this now makes sense to people we can in our thoughts on discussions we can pick up these two days we understand them and we understand the siege we understand the taking of the king that's what we're marking as the 25 20s not the city per se there's a progressive work of destruction that even goes beyond 721 because not all the people are fully ejected from the land that's going to that's still a future event so we've addressed that and we're enjoy and we just want to see about the repentance of God's people how and when they're going to be doing that and I'm suggesting that verse 18 to 20 could have been applied in this history and in this history it would have worked both ways once they've got to this stage then it's going to be applied here but it could have been applied earlier because I said he wouldn't have needed have been destroyed if they had done this the repentance let's pray Heavenly Father we thank you for your watch care and your goodness over us Lord as we discuss material that we're familiar with but we look at these things in a different perspective help us to have a clearer understanding of what these histories mean in the original context so that we can make a better and more accurate application for us here at the end of the world we offer a blessing upon the food that we're also to eat pray these things in Jesus his name I mean