What are the tokens of the Second Coming p.2

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Publish Date: 9/10/2018
Speaker Name: Parminder Biant
Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (09-10-18) Morning - What are the tokens of the Second Coming _ p.2-fjK3Dw7wcIg
YouTube ID: fjK3Dw7wcIg

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you oh man and the great controversy chapter xvii beginning page 299 heralds of the morning just will pick up a couple of key sentences that we've read page 3 0 1 paragraph 3 about his coming clustered the glories of that restitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began he gives an introductory thought and then quotes from Acts chapter 3 verse 21 and then dropping down a couple of paragraphs to 3:04 paragraph one prophecy not only Patel's the manner and object of Christ's coming that presents tokens by which men are to know when it is near so they're the two key sentences doctor we focused upon in addition to the first sentence in fact of the parrot of the chapter I read that to our six 299 paragraph one one the most solemn and yet most glorious truths revealed in the Bible is that of Christ's second coming to complete the great work of redemption so these are just some introductory paragraphs that we're looking at as we begin to discuss the first angels message in millerite history so I just want to get a couple of people to summarize where we've got to so far in our class but before we do that just want to read a couple of other spirit of prophecy quotes there only I'm really taking one sentence so I just give you the references but don't bother try to search them up if I'm just gonna read through these four passages relatively quickly so you won't have time to search for them really the first one is evangelism one ninety point one second one is 12m are fifty nine point two the next ways Maranatha 11.5 in the last one is reviewing Harold's June 1890 no 1 paragraph 8 I'm just gonna take one sentence for all of these vandalism one 90.1 the sacrifice of christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster so we're picking up the word cluster that's why we're here looking at these passages I really again the sacrifice of Christ as an atonement to sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster 12m are 59.2 the atonement of Christ is the great central truth around which cluster all the truths that pertain to the great work of redemption the atonement of Christ is the great central truth around which cluster all the truths that pertain to the great work of redemption so we've just seen how other white uses this word cluster in other contexts that's where we're reading these you'll notice in this one she talks about the atonement of Christ in connecting to the great work of redemption and if you remember the first sentence from chapter 17 page 299 paragraph 1 he says one of the most solemn and yet most glorious truths revealed in the Bible is that of Christ that can come into complete the great work of redemption so it's a consistent thought the second coming connected to the atonement and there are other truths that are connected to it or as she says that cluster around maranatha 11.5 this light was a distant cluster of flaming angels which appeared like a luminous star so that's talking about the second first Advent birth of Christ and that singular star or what appears to be a singular star is in fact a cluster of flaming angels so from a distance it just looks like a singular event but as you get closer to it you see that it's not a singular entity it's in fact a cluster in this particular case of angels and last one review in Herald June 18 the Lord is soon to come in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory is there not enough in the truths which cluster around this event and in the preparation is essential for it to make us think solemnly of our duty so this one specifically talks about the second Advent and this clustering of truths which are which are connected to the second Advent so does anybody want to volunteer just to give a you know a minute to minute summary of what we've got - so far brother James you come to the ball he hit with you prefer all you can just do it from your seat you need to use board work we've been working on establishing with the heralds of the morning where the scarabs are with the morning was - we've come to the conclusion so far that the herelet's are the signs of the tokens is for the second Advent I just want to give a reminder I'm already getting feedback that let me introduce it this way we spend the movement I spent a lot of money on equipment to ensure that these classes get transmitted across the world field and I'm already getting feedback that people cannot hear your comments I've noticed that I've lost over 18 months many of the classes are not classes they're actually just presentations that are being given so people don't notice when you don't speak out but the nature of my class is 30 40 % of all the input is from yourselves so it's really vital to think about other people it's a continual problem that we had that people don't hear what you're saying and in this way of things I forget to repeat everything that you're saying because I expect it just going to get picked up and it's not just a reminder you can really keep your voices up because people can't hear what you're saying I don't know but by that tomorrow we fo get feedback though because I don't know what it sounds like when it gets picked up on these mics another volunteer by the gram I think the original question that we had once the first angels message in the Miller I perform one and you took a through progression of events in three different books spiritual peace story of redemption and the first testimonies and we're looking at early writings and seeing when it was taking place in history what it was preparing the people to do in that history and how the books that we have now are preparing us for the events that are taking place now we're looking at a clustering of events taking place and deciding where to place center history we're talking yesterday about looking for events that are taking place before the time of the end and we saw in these verses we had the great earthquake and dark day and we're trying to line up other histories as well we're finding it difficult to find the events before the time of the end that brother Gregory could you summarize the discussion that we had on Matthew 24:36 I'll read the verse give you a couple of moments to prepare for that Matthew 24 verse 6 and ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars see that you be not troubled for all these things must come to pass but the end is not yet so if you can just explain why we went there and just a brief summary of the approach that we should have in that verse so we've read a great controversy about the tokens play which were to know that the second coming is going to be Neal and we found them to be distinct from the Herald's and they had to precede the second coming and there had to be a probationary time for them to be of any use whatsoever we found a number of parallel examples for example Ananias death preceding the instruction of Jerusalem the worldwide has been taken away to Babylon we also have the first siege in the section of destruction of Jerusalem before Titus coming and actually destroying it let me just see today all that was correct we studied all of that but I wanted you just to focus on verse six and our discussion on about go six alright so on so the was and rumors it was were also supposed to be tokens as well but they were unknown and therefore couldn't be used in that regard is that what you're so that's what our sister said they just sort of generic walls we don't know anything about them and I responded they're not going to be of much use if we did that because there's been hundreds of wars so then we wait to the verse and we had a fairly lengthy lengthy discussion on that I just want you I want you to remind us of how we approach that verse if you're able to yeah I'm just trying to think of how to put it I don't know if I'm getting out of pretty woods least a bro me you've shared that amazing that they wore that there was actually okay there's about what I said I wonder I want you to lead us through a Bible study briefly of how we approach that passage because it was suggested that these are tokens wars and rumors of wars a nun and I'm saying well what does that mean so we went to the verse and I'm saying the verse is very instructed when we know how to approach it so you tell us how we should approach this verse how we deal with it first specifically we should consider the Roman Empire civil wars that were going on during that time leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem and if we were to take the time to look at those specific Wars leading up to 1870 we could make an application in our time possibly with what's coming okay brother Richard verse 6 says the end is not yet explained what that means it was a I think because what you think no and if we think correctly I choose the wrong words again that these things would come to pass Chrysler telling you talk to a disciple and they act so basically 30 a moment the uh would be the sign of this coming off and when at the end of the world beat and also love when when shall these things be and in answering those questions Christ told them that a lot of things that had to come to pass but the end will not be yet where these things have to happen prior to the in Congress and in the disciples mind when Christ tells them this stuff was going to be destroyed they thought this had to be been at the world but Christ was related to them information that we we use at the end of the world that we will understand with parallel the deception of Jerusalem so he was telling you guys had to happen you know and those would be the the token and we proceed verse six to the end is not yet what is that little bit about you the end of what what is the end that's been referred to end of the world into the world sister Kathy foggy foggy same question I thought it was pointing to the end of Jerusalem tell us why you think he's the end of Jerusalem not the end of the world because they they asked three questions to him and so he was going through the different entering the different questions and the rumors and of this you know civil wars he had already said that their house was left desolate and they couldn't believe that that house would be room for ended and so we point blow then we got to verse 14 and compared it with Colossians 1:23 about the preaching in all the world and then from 16 on down at least destruction of Jerusalem maybe other factors anyone else sister Rachel how can we approach this I understood that before you do that let me ask you a question how are you going to approach the subject what assumptions are you going to make yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna say explain verse six to us and so before you explain in your own thoughts you must have some kind of idea of how you even approach this chapter what assumptions are you going to make as you have to assume something you have to be working on some kind of rules okay so you look at context Wales and what comes afterwards three g4 and after the verse okay so you're going to look at go back to the beginning then you're going to look at the context and maybe what would you assume brother Tyler so you're going to approach this what assumption do you think you need to have some kind of approach to get some kind of sensible answer or meaningful answer at the end it's a assume that you knew you already know I don't know if this would be an assumption or just there'd be a fact that I don't know but we do know that okay so we know he's weaving various events and we know that because he's faithful if you ask you should receive so they've asked about multiple events and so he'll respond with multiple events but there must be an assumption that we're going to use to help us analyze you may be a wrong assumption what what assumption are we going out I'm suggesting the primary one that we need to go with as we approach this subject rejecting okay so we're going back to D that's the question that we want to answer how would we know what endings talking about what assumption that we have to make so I'll ask the question because maybe it's not a very good question I'm saying we have to assume that the verses run sequentially during chronological order but you don't assume that you have no anchoring point because you don't know if verse four is in the same time frame as verse 31 so you have to make some assumptions and I'm saying one of them one of them easy assumptions that you do is verse 4 begins B is before verse 31 so it's going to be some kind of order so that would be your first assumption I think that we should approach any subject with you know there's some kind of order to or some kind of methodology to the way something is being discussed we we already mention that great controversy does it early writers does it and I'm saying it may or may not be the case but at least it would be an assumption that the reasonable if we did that with assume that whatever end is here is not the very end of the chapter now that may or may not be correct as I said but I'm saying if we could assume that then it would guide us and direct us in how to approach the subject so with that assumption we're at verse 6 the first thing tell us when these things shall be and then the sign of the coming and the end of the world so I would think that this end would be their first question tell us when they think shall be look when he says that your house should be left unto you desolate the destruction of Jerusalem so what I would think the be his first answer and can you give some evidence to that based upon the premise that these four then being some kind of order Jesus told them that when they shown into the temple he said I stand to you there shall be there shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down and they say tell us when these things shall be and Jesus goes into describing events that will occur before that happens okay any other thoughts sister Kathy Bates in verses 14 and then into 15 he hooks yeah I see in those verses that she's definitely talking about Jerusalem and here's him that is in Judea flee to the mountains I was understand okay so if we broke our own rules for a moment and we said instead of just focusing on Matthew 24 we went to a parallel chapter we went to mark 13 he went to mark 13 verse 9 go back to verse 8 for nation shall rise against nation and Kingdom against Kingdom and there shall be earthquakes in diverse places there should be famines troubles these are the beginning of Sorrows so it talks about nation rising against nation Kingdom against Kingdom verse into the Wars rumors of wars verse 9 but take heed to yourselves for they shall deliver you up to councils and in and in the synagogue's you shall be beaten and should we brought before the rules and Kings for my sake for a testimony against them so verse 10 the gospel must first be published among all nations that's Matthew 24:14 Bree uses the word synagogues now you know when we read that we just say synagogue the church is it's you know we'll just bring it to the end of the world but it says synagogues and God's people who don't go to synagogues at the end of the world so even the language is directing you to the historical context of when to place these events if we go with the premise that it is in some kind of order so brother Bobby you want to make a comment it was to look carefully at the history okay so for those who weren't in class we spent some time doing that because I think it's useful to show that when we pick up wars and rumors of wars it's not as vague term as people make it out to be there are specific war specific issues and the reason why we see why we discuss that is because brother Daniel said what about the Afghan war 79 to 89 because that is some kind of token some kind of sign and we discussed it in our movement that the leadership should have seen to know that the time where the end is coming they should have been able to pick that up and they they weren't able to because they don't understand about which was to focus on and which was not to focus on so coming back to great controversy unless anybody's got any comments or any other because you're saying it is a specific one but you're not saying which one so in that verse the wars and rumors of wars which ones are you thinking that those are so I'm not saying I'm an expert on the history of this time period but there were civil wars going on we know that there was a various Emperor's contending for power and there were nations that were rebelling against the Roman yoke the Jews was just one of those so it was those Wars and it wasn't my purpose to go to identify the specific ones but to show us that if you know the historical context and you know then you study what wars were being dealt were being addressed in that specific history then it gives us the ability to make a correct application at the end of the world it was just that that's at that level specific ones right the principle versus a specific war yes but the specific ones were we know that the Jews are entering into war against the Romans we know that this civil war going in in the Roman Empire Empire Empire and there are other wars other nations that are rising up in rebellion so coming back to great controversy we're at page 304 paragraph 1 prophecy not only for tells the manor and object of Christ's coming but presents tokens by which men are to know when it is near we've already read this paragraph she then quotes Luke 21:25 there should be signs in the Sun and in the moon and in the stars she then goes to mark 13 24 to 26 and she talks about the darkening of the Sun and the moon and the falling of the stars and picking up the last part of that those Bible verses and then and then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory the Revelator thus described the first of the signs to proceed the second advent there was a great earthquake and the Sun became black as sackcloth of hair and the moon became as blood so she talks about picking up the sentence the Revelator dust describes the first of the signs to perceive the second Advent and in the first sentence she talks about these tokens so I don't think anybody specifically addressed this issue when they asked for some summaries that the clustering of the glories are these tokens or these events that precede the second advent and show you that we're in the time period where the second Advent is about to happen so that's the conclusion that I want us to come to if we're all in agreement with that and we discuss that the original picture work here what didn't really work I know brother Tyler wasn't here yesterday when we did that but the class wing of events in this story would have been the captivity of Daniel under the reign of Jehoiakim the death of Hananiah and then the siege and we gave Bible passages this was obviously the Book of Jeremiah I think it's Jeremiah maybe Kings leviticus 20:6 and then he's a huge chapter for all of these were predicted events and if they weren't predicted they wouldn't be effective tokens why would that be the case why would they not be useful tokens if they hadn't been predicted brother Larry if you don't predict the token why are they ineffective tokens why they're not useful yeah because there's no warning so when the token comes if you weren't expecting it to be there you don't even know that it's a token it yeah if Hananiah had just died and jeremiah hadn't said he's gonna die people would have said people died we know what's that what's the issue cities always get besieged sometimes they don't get destroyed and sometimes they do so if these things were not predicted beforehand they would not be useful or effective tokens about part of the effect effectiveness of token is to for people to realize that there is still time for the warning to be heard and for them to to make preparations well probation is over that's the important point that we want to pick up I think someone did mention it that tokens need to be in probationary time or before the close of probation otherwise they don't serve any purpose any questions comments in the context of 304 paragraph 1 I think you Ellen White's using them interchangeably she says the Revelator dust describes the first of the signs to proceed the second ad vein here she talks about after John the Revelator took in the quote revelation 6:12 she says the earthquake the Sun and the moon but the earthquake Sun and the moon if we just talk about the Sun and the moon there already been addressed in Luke 21:25 and in Luke 21:25 she uses the phrase tokens so prophecy presents tokens I've just cut some of the extra words from the first sentence prophecy presents tokens and I'm saying those total my understanding of that is those tokens of the Sun and the moon stars and then she says the Revelator also describes those things and she's going to mention the Revelator because he's going to say he specifically is going to identify the first of the signs which is the earthquake which you don't find in the Gospels so the first of those signs he's the one who's going to give us that information which is the earthquake and the other two the Sun and the moon are already given in the Gospels it says signs in that sentence that lead sentence and in the previous one it says tokens would you really differently and signs may appear at the same time but two different things the signs tend to lead up to discussions of doom and destruction whereas the tokens pointing to as you stop here I didn't understand what you just said list out the signs in this paragraph okay the earthquake the Sun and the moon they're the signs list out the tokens so prophecy not only for tells the mana an object of Christ's coming but present tokens by which men are to know when it is near then when it says said Jesus you're saying said Jesus is not connected to the sentence before Smid tokens can be at the same time as the sign it's like cause and effect okay the earthquake causes the shaking of the buildings that caused to collapse and 90,000 people buy the tokens are those physical evidences of the coming of Christ but it's different than besides I don't think she's addressed the tokens quite specifically yet rather but I clearly see that that the words are being used in this paragraph interchangeably and that she's referring to the same thing that's all I see it that they're not different but I'm Clayton could war be another indicator too though because in Deuteronomy 434 of they relate signs wonders and war that's kind of the same thing so would that relate to the token - they're in there a number of tokens number of signs that precede even if you take them as separate things there are a number of events we just use the word events that are going to proceed whenever it is but I just wanted to see what she's referring to in this particular paragraph because this is not an exhaustive list so I'm just wondering how you read presents tokens prophecy presents tokens and then it says the Revelator also describes the signs because the intrabody conclusion should work for a chapter but it should also work for the paragraph so it starts out the intro and body their conclusion the same way and it intros with the simply with the tokens and it closes we're talking about the science so they have to be the same with the structure that's how the paragraph is put together Rowley if you just go down to 308 point to the first sentence of that paragraph price has business people watch for the signs of his Advent and rejoices to behold the tokens of their coming King 308 paragraph 2 Christ had bidden his people to watch for the signs of his Advent and rejoice as they should behold the tokens of becoming King I saw this more clearly in reading desire of Ages but I know you want us to focus too son create controversy watching for the signs and beholding the tokens I see is speaking specifically to different where the signs are pointing to destruction and the tokens are pointing to is coming there relatively the same time but still speaking and maybe so coming back to three or four paragraph 1 it says prophecy is going to present tokens and then she's going to quote Luke 21:25 so what's the what's the relationship between Luke 21:25 and the lead sentence there's no relationship because they're not the tokens you're saying the signs are pointing to destruction but within that is also coming which is pointing to the tokens so it's the common he's pointing to no I understand that but I'm saying the second sentence said Jesus you saying that's disconnected to the initial thought but I see that the this signs is talking about the manner and object of Christ coming okay so maybe I understand where everybody is seeing that they're talking about the same thing that took its equal signs but I still see another layer it's just not that easy for me to equate the two right Larry the way I've attacked this versus first there's two prophecies that is referring to one is Christ's coming and the manner in the object and the manner to me would be like every eye shall see the object would be like we spoke about the garments one of vengeance one is the Selective groom and then the tokens are the signs and those signs would be May 17th 1780 where the moon turned into blood another one we November 13th 1833 where the stars fell from anyone else audiences relating to she talks about later how the he does about the rabbi's well they will see these signs as their as their hope as their sign of redemption but really it's Senator telling their destruction so it'd just be a matter of who's receiving or who's observing ready and who's not who's chosen and who's not and that how they are receiving and perceiving these signs if they're signed if their children I don't know because I can't see that in this in the in the passage it may well be that case it would just seem strange to me that the way she would structured is to say we'll talk about tokens but I'm not going to explain what they are and then she jumps into two passages from the Gospels that talk about the things that are going to precede his second coming and then she says the Revelator also explains it and he's not going to explain those ones he's going to explain the first one or describe it tell us what it is I won't labor the point sorry he said well I just gotta say something about science so in the dictionary the definition the token so I was going through the Bible real quick and it's been pointed out that signs are usually negative things that are happening but we're told that the Sabbath is a sign that the keeping of the law and the heart is a sign in Luke it says and this shall be a sign unto you ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes lying in a manger so it's not always a destructive or a bad thing when it's used in the Bible okay okay the first selected Mississppi trainee 22 he talks just about how I was reading that yesterday it was like how we should approach and it says the Bible is not given to us in grants superhuman language if I really say fix upon the micro sorry okay okay can you call me the Bible is not given to us in Grand superhuman language Jesus in order to reach man where he is took humanity the Bible must be given in the language of men everything that is human is imperfect different meanings are expressed by the same word there is not one word for each distinct idea the Bible was given for practical purposes so when I look to that I think we need to understand like different meanings are expressed by the same word so in each understand what it means it's not because the separate words are different more that we should apply Japan as far as I understand because we need to understand what the inspiration is trying to share for us what it means even if the different of a few words are chickens okay so if I'm understanding what you're saying even though it says token and sign they mean the same thing yeah that's what that's how you're using this passage dude yeah piggybacking on what James was saying if you look at if you look at how it can be negative or a positive thing we look at the grand event of Christ's second coming and we know in the scripture it calls it the great and terrible day it's a great day for those that are that are Christ and who are his and it's a terrible day for those that are not so these signs are tokens depending on the individual either they're a sign of their soon destruction or it's a sign of their deliverance so it cuts both ways and it almost goes down to the individual next paragraph these signs will witness before the opening of the 19th century so this is 304 point to great controversy in fulfillment of this prophecy there occurred in the year 1755 the most terrible earthquake that has ever been recorded so then she's going to explain about the Lisbon earthquake 1755 will drop down to 306 point 106.1 25 years later appeared the next sign mentioning the prophecy the darken of the Sun and the moon what rendered this more striking was the fact that the time of its fulfillment had been definitely pointed out in the saviour's conversation with his disciples upon Olivet after describing the long period of trial for the church the 1260 years of purple persecution concerning which he had promised that the tribulation should be shortened he does mention certain events to precede his coming and fix the time when the first of these should be witnessed in those days after the tribulation the Sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light mark 13:24 1260 days or years terminated in 1798 a quarter of a century earlier persecution had almost wholly ceased following this persecution according to the words of Christ the Sun was to be darkened on may 19th of may 1780 this prophecy was fulfilled what is this passaged teaching us let's try and lay it out graphically who wants to have a go Oh while you decide in Iran decide in a second who's could never go because no wins volunteering sister Peggy sister Peggy penny screams just a pen it is design know it is desire of Ages chapter 69 not 68 if you just have another look I think you're 69 is a 69 yeah it was just a comment that we have to give who was the volunteer sister Kathleen 1780 1798 before you do that tell us where you got all of these dates from okay after described a long period of trial for the church the 1260 years of papal persecution 1260 gives you these two dates okay the 1260 days or years terminated in 1798 so we have that a quarter of a century earlier persecutions almost wholly cease at me so here's 25 years and then 1780 following this persecution the corniche the words of Christ - some words to be darkened on May 19th 1784 1780 it's the Sun 45 years later appeared the next sign mentioned in the prophecy and so we've got 25 years here and this is the earthquake anything else then I actually kind of took it said November I went ahead for the third sign of the stars falling etc but that's okay anyone else want to add something or say something this interesting point we read that there are a lot of wars and we are seeing they're not sure in any kind of wars and we have a lot of earthquakes but if you don't know the time you're living to point which earthquake you choose the prophesy you're gonna say go it seemed like there are a lot of first place we're gonna say that this is the end of the world but this are pointing to a specific earthquake to a specific Sun and the darkening of the sign things like this in the fall stars of course it's not always that it starts false at the same time but breaks it we have a lot but sister white is a plane is four in one event and we should also use that logic to the wars universe 6 ok without going into what 1773 is that we'll do that maybe a later time why 1773 even been introduced into this story because what will will put 1833 afterwards the Stars will leave that for the moment so we've got it doesn't mention the the moon here does it in this paragraph I don't think it does and the moon shall not give her light so I'll put the moon here as well I think we skipped over the passages that tell you it's all on the same day so we've got these three signs so you've got the three signs being mentioned you've got the 1260 538 1798 why bring in this 1773 what why is that being introduced into this story what's the context of it brother Graham what why'd they why have they spoken about 70 70 what's the what's the relationship between that and the rest of the Ebates persecution almost wholly ceased okay so I put no more persecution I'm not trying to focus on specifically why what happens here but but why is that even being introduced into this passage why do we need to know that in relationship to the earth Sun and the moon so that it'll give you a way map to place husbands explain how that's gonna work you may have to go through the Bible passages or or walk us through this paragraph because I want to know why is it being structured like this she's given us a period of of the 1260 years and to help locate those events she Wiki dates the way the Sun and the okay she gives us a marker to help clarify where those events take place and help you to locate where they where they anything else brother Jake Matthew 22 says that except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved just to help Matthew 22 Matthew 24 22 22 22 2414 oh sorry I'll drop back to verse 21 for then shall be Great Tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time no nor ever shall be and except those days should be shortened there should be no flesh there should no flesh be stayed but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened so explain that tribulation there's gonna be persecution for 1260 years it's going to be tribulation - 1260 years I'm going to put tribulation okay it says those days what are those days when does it begin an end so this is the days and he's just a tribulation so it's the days in the tribulation of this 1260 but then it says the tribulation is going to be shortened yeah anyone else unless I'm misreading the verse I think verse 29 is reflecting the shortening of those days and this is the connection between 1773 and 1780 the first or the sign okay so verse 29 so I read verse 3 and then you comment immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the Sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken so we've got tribulation and days you tell me how long the days are if it extended to 1798 and you can have the signs in the sky after so you'll say the days are this long yeah and the tribulation no cuz I am the tribulation goes to 1773 hundred days goes to 70 many so you say in the days of this long and the tribulations that log Rev James so he's that in contradiction to verse 21 and 22 the he read for us so this one he said that you said the tribulation was that long right and this one says tribulation is that long also the tribulation isn't that long right it's only that is that how everybody reads those passages sister bromley for the one reached out if the tribulation is shortened you could see that the tribulation lasts all the way to 1798 for it to be shortened it has to have an original where does it say the tribulation is shortened the Great Tribulation except those days should be shortened most of those days I see what you're saying yep that's a one's days and then why aren't we starting it after the earthquake because that was a sign leading up to this a token leaving after the prophecy why are we starting it just because he only says sign moon shake when you say starting you know the tribulation stop being at the earthquake don't you stop in the tribulation no 1773 yeah why not if the earthquake does that is one of the tokens I think it's because Ellen White says the 1260 days or years terminated 1798 a quarter of a century earlier persecution almost wholly ceased so it would seem to me contextually called a century earlier than 1798 that's how I I'm I've seen that I guess that's how sister Kathy had understood that passage brother Tyler so this it seems like we're making a distinction between the days and tribulation but when sister white talks about it in this passage in this passage passage she says in the what you just read actually okay so the 1260 1260 years three days four years term ladies empty like a quarter of a century earlier okay in the saviour's conversation with these disciples upon a bit after describing the long period of trial for the church the 1260 years of papal persecution concerning which he had promised that the tribulation should be shortened lens so she blends the concept of tribulation in days so blending you're saying tribulation equals days that's what you mean by blend i I'm asking you know not being dogmatic about that but it just seems like she yeah that's what seems okay she's taking because it doesn't specifically say the verses make it seem like the days are different than the tribulation you can see how you can read that but as she explains that she she actually mixes the verses because Christ never actually says that the tribulation should be short he says that they should be short so he says the day she'll be short and then she says the tribulation will be short the tribulation should be shortened okay so the Bible verse says day she'll be short and that's verse 22 except those days should be shortened and she says the tribulation should be shortened and verse 29 gives you that context as what connotation as well immediately after the tribulation of those days then you're going to get the Sun Moon and stars so it seems to infer that the tribulation is part of the days in verse 29 but verse 22 seems to read differently seems to have this interchangeability who had the hands up brother book just looking at going back a couple minutes ago when you're looking at why 1773 and not looking specific to that date but if we were to actually crack open instead of just looking at things happening in this in the Sun Moon and stars at that point if we actually start to look at human history what's going on we see we see that Norfolk that one of the reasons why the persecutions seized well they will do white sayst in the melt in a moment okay but I just wanted to know what is this is to consider the relationship between days and tribulation because the verse is I don't think tie uppers neat years you might assume they see too much they contradict one another but they seem to have different perspective anyone else wants to give a comment okay Theodore well also it talks about it in mark chapter 13 which we probably shouldn't look there because it create more confusion but the idea is that these are days of tribulation and there's a period that's given which is twelve hundred and sixteen but those days are shortened but that 1260 still has to exist in order for it to be shortened so the tribulation when it says the days are shortened it's just the days of tribulation within the 1260 days which is how we would have to understand it and that's this yeah yes so the day's stretched to here yeah and the tribulation part of it they're still days of tribulation only comes up to here yeah yes so these are b2 the date and these are just the tribulation part of those like the days of tribulation still it's not just tribulation it's days of tribulation because it's still days there's still days involved it's not just tribulation it's still counties it's just shortened so you have a longer period but then the tribulation within that longer period that still has to exist there is the period of tribulation the last days everybody's got that okay no are you saying that this is the day 1260 of them and a part of that 1260 years there's going to be some days that have got tribulation attached to them and the remaining portion don't have tribulation attached to them but the days run all the way through so these are days of tribulation but these are not days of tribulation 60 days right so that that's the period that's given but but the tribulation itself is shortened so the days of tribulation itself the actual tribulation days are less than the whole tribulation period the reason why patch isn't as straightforward as we might think it is it's not because the explanation isn't being given correctly is because verse 22 in verse 29 actually seemed to stand in contradiction to one another because 29 has this model that the tribulation is a smaller or a component of the days but in the previous verse they seem to just be interchangeable terms that the days are going to get shortened because the days would be the tribulation because it says in verse 22 the days are shortened but it doesn't mean the this time period seanix meeting what it's actually saying is the days of tribulation are going to be shortened the tribulation part of those of those full days I think that's what brother theaters expressing any anyone else give me one second GC 2 6 6 behold the paragraph are we how it quite sure the persecution of the church did not continue throughout the entire period of the 1260 years godly in his regarding mercy to his people cut short the time of their fiery trial in foretelling the Great Tribulation - before the church the Savior said except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened Matthew 24:22 through the influence of the Reformation the persecution was brought to an end prior to 1798 so there's a P in there not just a DN a-- T right there's the persecution tribulation in days because they're using that persecution throughout this as well and kind of interchangeable with tribulation yes yes so if we were going to do that you might say that this period of tribulation the part of it has persecution and the part dozen is when you start introducing this third idea this third word of persecution coming back to our passage oh just jc2 six six point four let's just talk about 1773 briefly we're not going to go into any detail just want to get an idea of what's going on there so she's going to give us a close he says through the influence of the Reformation the persecution was brought to an end prior to 1798 so she's talking about 1773 even though she's not talking about specifically and she says it's because of the Reformation and if we just took come Luther's life what time period did we say that was remember fifteen 15:40 you think that yes okay so I'm going to put 15 40-day for the Reformation obviously it's not just that event and it's not just the Lutheran Reformation it's before that and post that so the influence of the Reformation is going to precipitate that this persecution is going to cease before 1798 any comments on that okay okay so what's happening in 1773 to stop the persecution or to limit it brother Richard you really know I know that 1773 why is persecution stopped in 1773 by the Giants we're gradually I used to know and I've forgotten that's it's yeah so that's me because I think I'm out yeah that's right yeah yeah okay program this is the test so it's the Jesuit Order so the Jesuits are going to be basically cut away you're separated from the Catholic Church and why they doing that there's a pope suddenly not like Jesuits no it's not a problem in this history the 1260 in the next five minutes there's a relationship between the Catholic Church and the European powers we'll go to this artwork here are we okay with that one and then if we can see that it's revelation 17 the woman is riding the beast it's a scarlet colored woman scarlet colored Beast this is the wilderness period we've spoken about the wilderness here is 1260 John's taken to that period so there's a church state relationship I think it's revelation 17 verse 2 it gets to sorry verse 2 or 3 verse two I read verse one is the backdrop and there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials and talked with me saying unto me come hither I will show unto thee the judgment of the great Whore that sitteth upon many waters with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication so I'm saying those kings of the earth is this beast power and there's this woman it's called paper rome the Millerites understood that so you've got a relationship between the papal Church and the European nations that's this 1260 in the story of the persecution is going to come upon God's people if we were going to introduce the idea of the Inquisition just as one facet of that who's actually persecuting God's people is it the church or the state that really agree with that who actually does all the torturing the state yeah just when you think about the Inquisition so it's the state that does all the work at the behest or the direction of the papal Church everybody okay with that nothing major so if we're going to talk about persecution we know it's the government's that are going to be doing that persecution on behalf of papal Church so here in 1773 what has happened for persecution to cease Robert James country before we go into that detail what must be happening in 1773 for persecution to stop just obviously based upon what you've even just said okay so there's a separation of church and state that's going on in 1773 are we okay with that the separation of church estate has happened here 1773 which is before 1798 you what you'd expect because normally we would teach that separation of church and state happens here in 1798 why does that happen or how does that happen because there's a deadly wound that's been delivered to the papacy and what's that deadly wound separation of church and state we normally market in 1798 but this is showing us that it's really going into effect in 1773 so if you make the comment that you made about the Jesuits what I was saying was the countries were getting wise to what the Jesuits were causing so they quit use them as their counselors because many countries you had them as their as their counselors as their advisors and when they got wise to it they weren't willing to put up with it everybody with that and just one had he thought on that if you just follow the money you'll know what the motivation is the Jesuits had enriched themselves and it was partly as Ellen White says the Reformation that makes the government's begin to open their eyes that actually salvation is not dependent upon the papal church to provide that for them they can get salvation in effectively without the papal Church doing that so it's it's this concept here that you don't either papacy to have a relationship with God that precipitates 1773 that they become brave enough to say actually all this money that you're stealing from us and all of this power that you have usurped we don't really need to give it to you because we can stand on our own two feet we don't need the Jesuits to help control and direct our work so it really is about the money but it's connected to the issue of salvation that you don't need a priesthood to go to God so it's all of these events that culminate in 1773 and it it goes from one country to another and that the Pope is actually forced to write this law essentially that disbands the Jesuit Order it doesn't last very long I think it's I think he's 1814 but it's sometime over here is it according that they the order gets re reinstated because the dynamics have changed in Europe but that's what 1773 is it's the dissolution of the Jesuit Order which is being forced upon the church because of the Reformation and because the government see that the church has enriched itself through the use of the Jesuits well just got one or two more things to comment on about this and we'll do that in our next class before we call we move on it's closed we print Heavenly Father we want to give you praise and thanks for your goodness and mercy we ask Lord for wisdom and understanding that we might approach your word not only with reverence but with also the powers of the mind that you have given to us help us to honor and glorify you through our conduct and our behavior and our conversation throughout this day we ask for a special blessing upon the food that you have provided for our needs we ask and pray all these things in Jesus's name I mean