Ceasing of the Persecution p.1

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Publish Date: 9/10/2018
Speaker Name: Parminder Biant
Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (09-10-18) Afternoon - Ceasing of the Persecution-x0SDxQFVfAM
YouTube ID: x0SDxQFVfAM

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oh man GC 3:06 paragraph 1 25 years later appeared the next sign mentioned in the prophecy the darkening of the Sun and the moon what rendered this more striking was the fact that the time of its fulfillment had been definitely pointed out in the saviour's conversation with his disciples upon Olivet after describing the long period of trial for the church in 1260 years of paper persecution concerning which he had promised that the tribulation should be shortened he thus mentioned certain events to precede his coming and fixed the time when the first of these should be witnessed in those days after that tribulation the Sun shall be darkened in the moon shall not give her light mark 13:24 1260 days or years terminated in 1798 quarter of a century earlier persecution had almost wholly ceased following this persecution according to the words of Christ the Sun was to be darkened on the 19th of May 1780 this prophecy was fulfilled so we discussed this at some length this morning and this passage highlights let's just read that bit again what rendered this second sentence what rendered this more striking was the fact that the time of its fulfillment had been definitely pointed out and the time of fulfillment of what which one later appeared the next time which was it says in the if you've reading the first sentence its tail so it's straight they're okay they have a little same day so this has been definitely pointed out and it's connected to what when he says what rendered this more striking was the fact that the time of its fulfillment had been definitely pointed out so the time of the darkness of the Sun and the moon has been definitely pointed out and that's what makes the prophecy more striking or as striking as it was and how was it definitely pointed out okay going back several paragraphs that points out from Luke 21:25 the Sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars of heaven shall fall on the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken dealing with the second Advent second coming 3:06 point one the first sense that you read appeared the next sign mentioned in the prophecy okay so 25 years later pay the next I mentioned in the prophecy which is which is the Sun in the moon so you want to take us back to 21 25 which is three zero four point one Jesus said there shall be signs in the Sun and in the moon and in the stars so when it says 25 years later coming back appeared the next sign mentioning the prophecy she's combining two prophecies there isn't she not yeah because he's not the next sign it's the first sign right and what rendered the fulfillment of this prophecy so striking he says was the fact that the time of the settlement had been definitely pointed out so what's been definitely pointed out with respect to the fulfillment of the Sun and the moon well we are you readin differently the same paragraph that mentions Luke 21:25 she also points out revelation 6:12 which shows there's a great earthquake and the Sun became black as sackcloth of hair and the moon became as blood okay so that shows that the earthquake would come first yep the second one would be that the Sun in the moon okay I don't know what direction you're going with this but I just want to weight that I'm just I'm not going any direction as you what was the strikingly fulfilled though is I mean we're all talking about the tokens but the what the doors fulfill the prophecy was the persecution almost wholly ceased that's what I'm seeing okay so what rendered this prophecy the Sun and the moon more striking was that it's the time of settlement had been definitely pointed out that she's going to explain what the definite time was in the saviour's conversation with these disciples upon all of it after describing the long period of trial for the church the 1260 years concerning which he had promised that the tribulation should be shortened he does mention certain events to precede his coming and fix the time when the first of these shall be witnessed in those days after tribulation the Sun shall be darkened in the not give her light 1260 years days or years terminate in 1798 quarter of a century earlier persecution had almost wholly ceased for in this persecution according to the words of Christ the son was to be darkened so does everybody pick up what brother Bob said the reason why it's so striking is because it's given in connection to the ceasing of the tribulation yeah it's not my purpose in this class to make application but I'm hoping that you see the way these things are being laid out just the fact that we know there's number 25 there that the persecution is ceasing it's it's right pickings for making applications if we were minded to do that not saying it would be easy but the reason why we want to read these things carefully is because whatever the Sun and the moon darkening means in our history it's going to be a it's going to have a striking fulfillment because persecution will have ceased before that and if the persecution have ceased before that we should be predicting the season of the persecution and then once that has ceased we know 25 whatever that means 25 something later if it's years I don't know what it means but the number 25 later when the Sun and the moon are affected whatever that means it would be a striking fulfillment and the reason that makes it more striking not the fact that it happens but it's connected to the ceasing of persecution did everybody follow that logic without even understanding what the application would be okay so as I say I'm not attempting to make any applications but unless we read the original carefully we're not going to be able to point out these things and make an application in the first place is that okay brother James yeah everybody okay with how we've approached that paragraph yep next paragraph that's just going to be talking more about the the dark day 1780 so he's the next paragraph so is the next paragraph so there's fearing and anxiety or gradually filled the minds women stood at the door looking upon the dark landscape men turn from their labor in the fields all of these things are happening and what makes this much more striking is the fact as she says the persecution had ceased before and Christ clearly points that out so we should understand what that means 1773 what have we said about 1773 did this dissolution of the Jesuit Order which has been forced upon the Catholic Church they're not doing voluntarily by the governments of Europe because they've just had enough of the abuse that the Jesuits have placed upon Dhin anything else a little bit different angle not looking directly at the papacy but looking at the at the Reformation it was already been going on for several centuries as the as the Reformation continued and the persecution ceased you see it if you when you look at the landscape of history you see the rise of the United States very clearly and the end the transition going from two European nations to the United States I mean if you want to start looking at history and and and seeing how that ties in with the persecution ceasing I I think it also fits so as this wait for you to finish yeah this is the test 1773 and be happening 1773 in the United States Boston Tea Party familiar with the Boston Tea Party and its significance maybe maybe not sit look maybe not aware of its significance in line of prophecy but we're all familiar with the throwing of the tea over the ships you can go into the number of tea boxes the number of ships the fact that they dress up as Indians where those tribes are located there's there's a lot of symbology in that whole story that the fact that they dressed up and they pretend to be someone else sort of like a common enemy if you like and these are the American government American officials however you want to look at that who are doing this work that's happening in 1773 yes if we're going to go to a Bible passage not that deals directly with this but he's going to start introducing the United States in relationship to this history where would we go where would you go I'm sure it's not one correct answer I would go to Revelation 13 because revelation 13 first of all you say yes yeah anyone else rich rich ultraverse Newport 40 I'm a Bible - key Bible okay I would have gone to Revelation 12 not Revelation 13 every day with Revelation 12 why would you go to 12 sister Elissa so revelation 1216 someone that heard someone say that and the earth helped the woman and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood which the Dragon cast out of his mouth everybody okay with that if we go back one verse and the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood so whose issue in the flood right verse 16 whose mouth is it coming out which way you want to go for 15 just as a serpent cast out of his mouth waters of sixty Dragon they just said it swallowed up the dragon yeah okay yeah it says the dragon so oh yeah okay verse 18 says the serpent the sixteen says two dragon what do you think what why you'd be pretty simple to say the same anyone have any thoughts look maybe the safe the serpent may be referring directly to to Satan's control and the dragon would be could be referencing you know the earthly powers that he is manipulating to cause the flood but the great - I think it's two different meanings so that's life similar to what brother 1290 Satan and Burton kingdoms I think one could be doctrine and the other could be state power so serpent is doctrine and dragony state power any further why'd you say doctrine who issues doctoring what is the doctrine when you were in the symbology what was the doctrine be okay so you ain't from the dragon in verse 16 to the flood in verse 16 but they couldn't of the dragon in 15 would be the serpent if you go serpent dragon you're saying the dragon is state power the serpent is the way I said it would do Church so church so the flood of 50 you said was doctoring and so the father 16 the state doesn't have doctrine does it so what the glug reduce our singing persecution certainly persecution so that would tie in with what brother Bob was saying that the United States is going to be the relief for God's people to help them escape from persecution and people who persecute other governments of Europe sister listen 38.2 speak up say testimonies to ministers hey 38.2 it connects the server before we connect it let's go just with the ballad with passages you don't like doing that you heard various people commenting on verse 15 and 16 you voice to chapter 2 verse 16 do you have any comment to add to what they said or not you agree you disagree so no say that some say Church do this to the serpent maybe I have that wrong but as in my mind of creating the justification for the two describing the papacy and the woman who is riding the beast that's being pointed so when did when did the dragon give his seat because you said 1216 when you introduced us to 12 chapter 12 it's a long before 1260 so you can't use Revelation 13 verse 2 to fix the dragon here so I don't know where to go from there okay TM 38.2 is a good place to go Kings rulers and governors have taken upon themselves a brand of Antichrist and it represented as Kings rulers and governors so we can mark them as Kings rulers and governors in this history where it's not revelation 32 that's the history that precedes this I wasn't trying to draw anything out I brought Larry Oh revelation 12:9 reads this and the Great Dragon was cast out really just for the mic and the drought and the Great Dragon was cast out that old serpent called the devil and Satan which deceiveth the whole world and he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him see you disagree with brother Graham deletes church-state no I would say that the dragon typifies pagan Rome or faithful wrong to you know the transition so in one sense at least nine is nine and show me that but I couldn't answer it for verse fifteen sixteen so nine he's showing you that they're the same entity the Great Dragon was cast out that old serpent yes it's a it's a same entity to devil but in fifteen or sixteen are you going to keep them separate or you're going to just say it's a repeat and enlarge the same thing just at first glance state power and the other see not Church they'll ship surgeon states you can search cramp yeah potato yeah I'm having a hard time understanding why you think they're different in 15 and 16 it's the same that's doing the same thing because the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after a woman and then it says later on in 16 and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood which the Dragon cast out of its mouth as far as I see it's the same it's the same thing it's just it's just giving more detail it's not showing a different power why don't just keep it a serpent or dragon why switch um well because they're telling us that this is a dragon power so this is a beast that's that has that's going to be dealt with in different forms but behind it is Satan so Satan is the one always behind this power it's a safe satanic power but the serpent it's tying us back to Genesis chapter 3 so there's a whole bunch of things that ties back to Genesis earthly is Walt in 15 well the serpent is Satan and the dragon is is Satan's power on this earth but if they think it's not satan's peril the earth it's just Satan no it's still Satan's power but they're interchangeable terms okay so in 58 Satan's power on earth and in sixty eight seconds power on earth yeah but it's just it's focusing more upon the fact that Satan is that is the one behind that power that's all in with us anytime it mentions a serpent it's tough it's referring back to Satan the dragon isn't necessarily Satan so you're going back to serpent is the public site initially that 15 is Satan or Satan's agents on the earth just gonna clarify I'm gonna study what you say is this is all same things behind the whole thing the dragon is this beast is has seven heads and ten horns and it's the great red dragon okay so it's pagan Rome so it's safe this is Satan right so I've just want to kind of like 68th pagan Rome but 50 is not pagan Rome 15 okay so there's this the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman that he caused her might be carried away yeah so at this point I kind of see the question you're you're asking because we have at the beginning we have pagan Rome right this is the one that persecuted Christ when he's born right and then we have this 1260 years the woman who flees into the wilderness and the dragon which is pagan Rome it goes seeks to continue persecuting the woman but it has to do it in a different form right because it's not pagan Rome persecuting the woman who in verse 16 it has to be paper so that dragon in verse 16 is the papacy yes you will have to be the papacy okay so in verse 15 what's that serpent it still have to be the papacy in this case see what practice in papacy yeah and why wouldn't be using two different symbols for the papacy why is John using two different symbols God's okay well because the one symbol brings us back to Genesis chapter three and the other it it deals with these beasts from Daniel it's gonna tie to these political powers because Satan isn't necessarily a political power back in Genesis chapter three he doesn't have control of the nations so there's there's governments that are exercising this power through this history not just Satan personally so now you just shifted the sixteen is state not Church it sounds like that that's what you had just done well it's always the state even with the church the stage is still doing the persecuting the church gives gives there's the state has to support the church in order for it to a person will the Grail now I find out what those symbols of a target unit in sixteen is it's hardly in the papal church or is it targeting the countries that the papal Church is controlling this is extreme Church so we have people going to the United States is that what we're talking about learning that were you talking to brag in you said the dragon was the papacy in sixteen but then you said the dragon is was actually the countries that the papacy was controlling yeah I don't really make a distinction between it in the sense that the papacy still needs these political powers to do the persecute the church doesn't really persecute without any it doesn't have the power to persecute on its own without the state giving it that power for the value 7 the same beast of here yeah down there I think is annually this one you know this one both is the same is so I think it's the same earthly government that's persecutes but when deals with paper wrong you have the papacy means the same kings of the earth it's zero the kings of Europe that are persecuting the Christians so the Beast is the same but now you have to pay the same in place here we see the same thing we know that the red track that the red dragon is pagan Rome and that's the kings of Europe but then says that they roam the red dragon he's the one that is in the top sixteen how it can be the only option for me that I see is that is the same earthly things that are persecuting but address also the papacy with you and before they didn't have it so you have the same characteristics there you have the same things but now have the papacy and here you have the red dragon and then you have the serpent the chopsticks okay so what are you saying the dragon is Kings state power state power and the serpent the serpent should be that I think the spirit of persecution so I don't know maybe your favorite thing okay you can applaud the great yeah I think that's it that's what I think I'm not sure anyone else so let's read the TM 38.2 we just have that in the record I'll cut into the passage TM 38.2 will just read this and I'll give you an opportunity to speak I cut half wind well two thirds into the paragraph kings and rulers and governors have placed upon themselves the brand of Antichrist and the represented as the dragon who goes to make war with the Saints with those who keep the commandments of God who at the faith of Jesus she's quoting revelation 12 they're in their enmity against the people of God they showed themselves guilty also of the choice of Barabbas instead of Christ so she sits identifying 16 that this dragon power is state power there's an if we're okay with that straight definition which we still leave us to decide what what the serpent power would be so in great controversy 438 where Ellen White talks about while thus while the dragon primarily represents Satan it is in a secondary sense a symbol of pagan Rome so she's talking about revelation 12 verse 9 so that's where I get my idea from this that it is pagan Rome but it's primarily Satan but then she says later where is it here before we buddy like let's just tackle this everybody knows he is Satan yeah but when we read those passages we wouldn't read Satan in that would week well it tells us in the Bible it says it's the old serpent the devil and Satan so I would be out but we're not really going to the revelation 13:2 and say that beasts that came out of the sea received its seat from Satan no you're not gonna do that I know because we know that Satan has uses earthly powers to exercise but he says he received it from the dragon right then we know who the dragon is on the dragon thank power right primarily represents Satan but in a secondary sense a symbol of pagan Rome so which one do we want to go with the primary or the secondary application we're using the secondary application most of the time because that's what we see because we didn't the passengers would have main anything right we need to see that this is nations doing this but so when it's talking about it my point is when it talks about it being the serpent or the dragon it's not saying that this is some different power this is the serpent to some different power from the dragon but you are you but you agree that sixteen the dragon is not the papal Church yes because what ends up happening is pagan Rome gives its seat to the papacy its power its Eden and great Authority it gives that to the papacy so the papacy then still has that power and that seat that came from pagan Rome so so it's not in a sense its own it's not some really some new power the papacy is not really some new power no I'll do that point out sixteen state power because it's the dragon we have to SOP quotes that prove that yeah so when we come to verse 15 what is verse 15 dealing with is it dealing with those same state powers or is it dealing with the patron church so when it says the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman people are arguing that this is referring to the church seeking to persecute the woman not the state power I don't know why we need to do that because the theme of the 1260 is a church state relationship from the threefold Union that's why people see that in there I think that in chapter 13 really clearly and 17 and 17 is para yeah because all those three chapters are all dealing with the church state relationship it is various forms or phases that's why they see it there okay I'm just not sure why the word serpent would then refer to the papacy and not because it is the dragon is the serpent right so I guess maybe there can be a distinction I just never have seen it okay okay my my only question is if now that we've set here and dissected this for a minute stick up now that we've sat here in dissected this for a minute revelation 12:14 says and to the woman were given two wings of a great Eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent so during the 1260 she was persecuted so in what way was she nourished from the face of the serpent okay I'm just wondering when we take Satan as a symbol isn't here the ultimate church-state relationship or the counterfeit of that if God is a priest and King then that's a church state Satan wants to be king of the earth and also God on earth so he's a church state but when you use him as a symbol he can you can split that both can be Satan that they can be split ones a church runs a state why symbols of Satan but two separate entities so is that making the defense in verse nine why he's identified as a serpent and a dragon so he's that yes to my question so Satan is identified as a dragon and a serpent because he has he fulfils these two roles of priest king church and state and all we haven't done because he's part it's not that easy because we don't have just a straight spirit prophesy quote that says serpent equals church just like we have with dragon equals state there's not there's not just a clear passage it takes them perhaps I'm working out to do that there's not necessary quite for that you can work through some logic to show that a challenge to someone they've got some spare time anybody want to tackle brother James question verse fourteen until the woman was given to she's basically able to go to the wilderness where she is protected from the serpent for 1260 years so I guess I'm not 100% sure what your question is how do we work out the dichotomy between not being nourished and being persecuted well in in verse 13 it says that the Dragon was cast in her and persecuted the woman and we know that that the church was persecuted for 1260 years and the following verses says she was sent in the wilderness and protected from the face of the serpent so what the dragon is persecuting and the serpent she's protected from so I'm asking help how is that I have no idea so with that cuz if we can answer that then we might have a better idea of what the serpent is instead of just saying you know that it's Satan at the base level so you don't like me talking that since the test is hopeful no I agree with what she's saying I just from these verses I don't know I think you can agree with it or disagree with it that the serpent is Satan right but Satan is identified as two elements so one of those elements couldn't just be Satan both are limits combined have to be Satan and if we have one of them which is a state I don't know if you want to go with deduction of just logic that the other one would have to be Church particularly because chapters 12 13 and 17 all they would deal with the church state relationship right so looking at it that way with what sister test said was it it obviously wasn't protected from persecution from the dragon because it was persecuted although it was cut short but as a serpent he was protected from the serpent is that because it was allowed to maintain a semi pure doctrine and if that's the case then what what aspect it would have to be the church that was kept from completely mixing the doctrine so if we just follow on with that thought if you go to Revelation chapter 2 so it's going to be persecuted by it's going to be persecuted by the dragon why why this dragon why does this dragon have the ability to do this brother Gregory we're in the 1260 why does the dragon have power why didn't have ability to come in cause pain to this woman I see because God allowed it as a response of Pergamos the compromisers so you say punishment in a sense here so and all I suppose indirectly to also provide an opportunity coming up the church that also because that tends to happen with persecution okay so on one level we've got first of all churches and you're saying you can say explicitly but I assume you was talking about Pergamos is compromised they begin to compromise with the church but with the state with Rome and where do you see that compromise sister Brahman and program us we'll see it takes me at that compromise for the Nathan what history do we see Pergamus so that's the epitome of compromise listen you what year is approximately is okay right 332 538 Tyra's so you go we just in yet mark 33 anyone else you know venture brother bread constantly we know negated constancy to see the compromise where these pagan King flips and becomes essentially Christian but it's it's all fake it's not real so this is compromise and it's how they're gonna be punished so we've got this theme that the twelve sixties punishment because of their compromise but what else is that 1260 with respect to this punishment 1260 is the second half Bob twenty five twenty in the twenty five twenty is punishment all the way along beginning with pagan and they're going to papal punishment because of the broken covenant that God's people have so I think you've got Itoh but I've got out of it broke the Covenant so they're gonna be punished so it's the theme of punishment so there's this theme of punishment that's running through this story and God's going to shield them in some shape or form and we saw that 1773 as an example of that a symbol of that if we go to Revelation to verse 18 and unto the Angel of the church in Thyatira write these things saith the son of God who hath the who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire and his feet are like fine brass brother Larry the Angel of the church who is that what is that this Angel of the Church of Thyatira Daniel I know I can guess guess it's the fourth church so it's the fourth angel yeah I will angel equals Oh what else rebus in this context for church's type IRA yeah I'm not arguing I could go to any other churches I could go to Smyrna and unto the Angel of the Church of Smyrna same thing I'm trying know what that angel is okay so just give me angel equals no okay to messenger okay so that's a classic definition you go to the Greek it's and give you messenger this test this is the leadership this is the leadership of the church he's addressing the leaders and you'll see it as you run it quickly in this one you can see it really clearly I know thy works and charity and service and faith and by patience and thy works and the last to be more than the first notwithstanding I have a few things against thee because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel which calleth herself a prophetess to teach and seduce my servants to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed unto idols so we'll stop at verse 20 so brother James what's happening here so I'll sort you off the angel of Thyatira is verse 20 is allowing dr. chakra to be makes false doctrine to be mixed with your doctrine everybody okay with that it's just two things he's allowing Jezebel to do two things what are the two things rather Nathan teachings have used my service who are the servants the church the church it's got people in that history and the angel is allowing Jezebel to teach God's people and to seduce God's people and who is Jezebel paper Church we could we could we could show that if we would because you go back to the story of Elijah so the Church of Thyatira the leadership of the church are allowing the papacy to teach false doctrines to God's people and to seduce them and in the midst of all of that God is in some shape or form protecting them so that they can come out and survive I guess they experience which is separate and distinct from the persecution which they deserved which is the dragon power that persecution so that's how I would see verse 14 first of all whenever that wilderness means one of those wings are symbolizing there's some form of protection that the church is receiving as its own leaders are allowing the papal flood to come in and sweep the people away so all of that happened so our past discussion or brother Bob's fault because he wanted to bring in United States here in 1773 so it's an important part of prophecy and other white doesn't really talk about it you'll see how she spoke about the persecution ceasing this is European persecution she doesn't mention the Jesuits but that's what's causing that this backlash from the states they've had enough of this of the Jesuits and what was the purpose or the role of the papacy sister Sue Ellen in the 1260 Watts the paper C's job titled not the job description the year the defender the PI whose pie they are the Catholic Church not a lot the Jesuits I'm asking about the papal system papal Church papacy what's their job description what's their what's their role in the 1260 okay they're trying to see who's a heretic and who's not following their faith brother Larry persecute so their their job in life is to persecute the Gregory who does the papacy work for essentially for Satan not today Satan they don't work for the state if they're in power okay so I've okay Lee Satan brother Craig who's the papacy great work for into 1260 because he say god you're saying save it okay so the papal Church is working for God how do you show that what's the argument mr. Brahmin what's the argument that the papal Church is working for God you to do what so he's going to use the nation's as a rod or a staff in his hand to beat his people so the papacy he's doing its role really well for all of this twelve hundred and thirty-five is it twelve hundred thirty five years so he's doing this job for twelve hundred thirty five years and then it says what what is it safe right someone says something stop we'll take a break so now it becomes this obedient he says we're no longer going to do what God tells us to do so God hasn't finished his punishment of the people yet has he of his own people because needs to punish them for 1260 years doesn't he otherwise we're going to be 25 years short of 25 20 it be 2495 so right you 24 9 so I've got 25 20 say it to be 24 so God Allah failed in his mission wouldn't he so what's God going to have to do when the papacy says we're taking a break we're going on strike I'm not going to do our role what does he have to do yes use someone else which Bible chapter or where we going to go for that okay tell me who he's gonna use it's gonna use Islam now it doesn't use Islam Islam Islam is a as Bravo Daniel France he's gonna use France sister Bromley where do we go to that so we go to revelation 11 so we're in revelation 11 and God's going to say we have to carry on punishing the people because we have to give a we have to give him their full measure because the 2520 is what kind of a punishment seven times and 7 is 3 severity complete and complete is another way of expressing perfect he has to give a perfect punishment to them because he gave an oath what's the oath number 7 so he's giving it he's given the oath he can't be 25 years short so the papers he's taken a holy day so he says look if you're not going to do the job we have to get someone else to do the job and who's he gonna do get to do that job is going to be France what's the problem we use in France to localize it what's the problem with France because they're not atheistic what's the problem with France where is Francis threat be Christian that's the problem France he's over here so far so good so to use France he has to get them and turn them upside down and change them into something so he's going to change them from what into what let's give a title what's he gonna change them into what's gonna change him into changing me to the king of the south we okay with that Bible verse brother Stephen the Bible verse so they've changed France into the king of the south sister Elissa verse brother Graham's verse verse 40 now you let me verse foggy the King of the South and the King the North are gonna have a fight so here's the King of the South so he's going to change it into the King uh south because what was it before it was the king of the north before so when the papacy says I'm not going to work for you any longer look to God God's gonna say okay we'll get someone else to work for me and who are we going to select so he's going to take France change France from the king of north to the king of the south and get France to finish off the work and if you read Alan White's commentary on revelation 11 I guess one of them more pertinent verses I can find it verse 7 and verse 3 they've been working for 1260 years we okay with that verse 7 yeah 11:3 will give power unto my two witnesses 11 three and they're going to be working for a thousand two hundred and threescore days 1260 that's really okay with that and in verse seven and when they shall have finished their testimony the Beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them and shall overcome them and kill them so Ellen White it's it's not even a marginal reading here to change that but when other why it's going to comment on that not in every reference because in some references she keeps it the verse as is but in the pertinent one from the great controversy she changes one of those words we all know what that is yeah issues she swaps the word finished to finishing because she wants to identify war that this beast that rises out of the bottomless pit does not arise when right so it doesn't arise in 1798 at the end of the 1260 as they're finishing as they come into their end which is this 25 years then the power from the bottomless pit is going to ascend the powers gonna send out the bottom it's going to come up out of that bottomless pit and it's marking France here and the persecution of God's people in the French Revolution is the tail end of the 2520 okay with that that perspective the last part of the word that she's changed it's someone got the reference to that will read that well yes the spread prophecy quote I mean yeah revelation it's revelation 11 7 okay GC 2 6 8 paragraph 3 this is chapter 15 the Bible in the French Revolution when they shall have finished in parentheses are finishing their testimony the period when the two witnesses were to prophesy clothed in sackcloth ended in 1798 so if we were to read the verse as is verse 7 it would mean that the beasts would rise up out of the bottomless pit at 1798 when they have finished their testimony that's what you'd be forced to conclude so she's going to adjust that and say are finishing their testimony so as they're finishing their testimony that's when he arises out the bottomless pit next sentence as they were approaching the termination of their work in obscurity war was to be made upon them by the power represented as the beat the Beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit in many of the nations of Europe the powers that ruled in church and state had for centuries be controlled by Satan through the medium of the papacy but here he's brought to view a new manifestation of satanic power so who's doing all the work the paper the states the government's are doing that it says that the European powers of the government so who was controlling the governments before in this history papal Church Church state relationship and who is a who's controlling them now France he's the one that's it is doing the work who's controlling France so we could say Satan or we could say atheism or we could say spiritualism of whatever symbol we're going to use I'd prefer not to use Satan because Satan's at the back of everything so if we went for atheism which is essentially spiritualism you see that the driving force where it's religion or no religion always produces the same thing when you've got this 1260 so even though she's gonna mark the the ceasing of persecution it really doesn't cease it goes right to the end but Allah my Allah white wants to mark a specific or make a specific point but we can make other points as well which are not contradictory but complementary that Satan and God are behind them for different purposes it's almost like there's a different moti of death God has a motive of a real righteous motive really for his use of atheism in the French Revolution or as Satan is nefarious like you'd expect yes so when I say who does he work for you say Satan that that cannot be an incorrect answer has to be a correct answer the papacy is boss is Satan we know that because that's what revelation 12 says Satan is the serpent is the dragon we know that and we know that God and Satan don't work together but what we want to give is a well if I wanted to show us was a perspective how we can integrate not just a twenty five - it's not it wasn't a push to to promote the twenty five twenty it's just it happens to be here any and it is correct but we know that God is behind this punishment yes yeah and we can go back to the Old Testament stories it's not it's not so it's not something that we make up Babylon is going to be used to punish God's people there are clear passages that teach that it's just that it's just the modern-day fulfillment of that so at one level yes the persecution ceases but at another level it doesn't I've said the reason why the papacy is going to receive a deadly wound here actually I didn't even we didn't even quite get there it receives the deadly wound here why who's gonna give the deadly wound who's who's behind that God is behind it not Satan so God's gonna punish the papacy and according to this story why would he punish the papacy because they were derelict in their duties didn't finish the job but that's not the normal answer that we would give of why they would receive a deadly wound what's the new world answer that we give because they persecute innocent people as well I don't know they don't care god says just wipe everyone out if you go back to Isaiah 2 they stick model that's just a broad-winged hag what is it saying in that passage about the state can the saw come on men women and children let's have a look so realize they attack the tain and I read verse 15 normally I'd get you to read it we finish it by the right suit okay so I'll reverse 15 shoulder acts boast again boast itself against him that q is there with or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaken it as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up or as if the staff should lift up itself as if it were no word so what's the normal story or response of why they're gonna receive the deadly wound from Greg then become proud its religion they become boasts four weeks verse okay see if we just stop back to verse 13 for he say it by the strength of my hand have I done it and by my wisdom for I am prudent and I have removed the bounds of the people and have robbed their treasures and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man so it's because of these boastful statements that the king of the north whether it's going to really whether you're gonna making the Assyrians or the Babylonians he's making that that's why they're gonna be punished sister Bronwyn you looking fight this release her okay everyone okay so we're looking at health of the morning it's it's standards we just we just reading the great controversy we're not doing anything special or unique not even really making any application but I just want us to read the passages carefully and maybe think about these events these way marks in a slightly different way the normal way we would identify the reason for the deadly wound I may be like maybe I assume that's why we would do it maybe I should have asked why why did it receive a deadly wound what would you what would your answer be maybe it's too late to ask the question here because it's what we know why Dwight receives it they weren't my understanding is normally we would argue that it's because it boasts itself it's that it's it's not just done its work but it's said that the reason it had the ability to do its work was because of its own strength if you like it attributes its power to Satan he says I'm a satanic power and Satan gave me all this power to wipe God's church out and gods are going to say hold on a minute without me allowing that to happen you would have done nothing let me teach you a lesson so that's the normal narrative it's like nobody knows exactly chapter four this is Babylon that I created in my own strength but I also wanted this to see just from that passageway she says the dark day what was more striking about it was the cessation of persecution so she marks that as some you know important event but even that important event where we we tied it back to the Jesuits we can also tie it back to what's happened in the United States the Boston Tea Party the issue of taxis that there's many things we could see there but beyond those details it was to show another story that the papal Church that works for God is now not doing its work and it's work was to control the European Kings to make them do its bidding which was to punish and hurt God's people and the papal church said I'm going to stop doing that don't do it anymore and so God says lucky if you're not gonna listen to me I'm gonna punish you as well so that's the punishment here in 1798 but he's not gonna let God's people off free for those 25 years he's also going to continue the punishment but he has to find the new person to do this and the new person he's going to use is France problem is France he's not someone new someone that's been around for a long time because France he's here at the beginning and I'm sure we were familiar with it with the story that it's France that puts the papacy on the throne and it's France that protects the papacy off the throne France here was one of these nations the basic saying we're not going to listen to the the papacy anymore and then God's going to turn them from a persecuting power that's driven by Catholicism into a persecuting power that's driven by atheism so France just continues its work all the way through it just changes religion at this juncture and even if we don't understand what to do about that I'm sure we can all see that there's some kind of application to be made here France changes its religion there's a change in persecution who's going to be persecuting it's you could mark France all the way through but France changes its religion its purpose for persecuting changes and all this is in relationship to 1773 in 1798 and it's 25 years everyone okay with that so let's come back to the great controversy we're around 307 paragraph 1 but I'm gonna drop down we're not going to read any of that she spends a lot of time a number of paragraphs in dealing with this dark day ok so we're going to go to 308 paragraph 1 308 paragraph 1 May 19th 1780 stands in history is a dark day since the time of Moses no period of Darkness of equal density extent and duration has ever been recorded the description of this event as given by eyewitnesses is but an echo of the words of the Lord recorded by the Prophet Joel 2500 years previous to their fulfillment the Sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and terrible day of the Lord come Joel 2:23 so you've probably seen presentations now or you may not have that are going to use this paragraph and they're going to make application here in the book of Joel and what people are going to do is take the year 1780 and she says 2500 years previous death to their fulfillment 2500 years and we're going to get 1798 and go back 2500 years then we're going to get back to what date 1784 1780 you okay or not the what do you I say did I say wrong did I say sorry 1780 I wrote 1780 and made 1780 so 1780 if you do 2500 years back so it would normally take you to 720 but obviously we know that we have to factor in that there is no year 0 when we go so it takes us back to what year rather says I've already given us can take you back to 721 I put in the - I thought actually proper proper - those are just do BC and we could do BC so he takes you back to 721 so why is that significant why 721 significant the captivity to Babylon the destruction of Sumeria we should all know that the destruction of some areas in 721 some people need a bit more time to drag those things out there memory banks because he's not in the because we don't use that date very often so all I want us to see without going into the history in any detail is that 17 2007 21 is really close to 723 everybody knows 723 so for it 723 we know that this is connected to the 25 20 so just understanding this one paragraph there's number of things we can get from this paragraph this is just one point that what we can now do is get the book of Joel and we can locate it reasonably accurately before you before you have this passage you could you you can really put Joel in a certain time frame but not accurately enough so this this allows you to see the relationship of the book of Joel in relation to the the two tribes if this is ho share this is the ten and the two tribes and this is Z the kiya and we've got Hezekiah here in the south ho shear in the north and if we put 723 here when you get that framework and then and now you read the book of Joel it then begins to allow you to understand clearly you're clearer at least what's happening in the book of Joel so here's seven twenty one two years after 723 is everybody reason to be familiar with with Joel especially Joel chapter one and two yes No so I'll give I'll give a really basic overview of what's of what's what what's happening here maybe will you go to Joel so we'll go to Joel 1 chapter 1 verse 2 here this year old men and give ear all the inhabitants of the land had this been in your days or even in the days of your father's sister Tess could you paraphrase that for us ok so he's asking the people have they you said what have you ok so have you seen or heard this thing ever before so what's the the tense past present or future of this conversation in relationship to what's being spoken about is was it past present or future brother James sister Alyssa said passed everybody okay passed just a test yeah so he's asking a question to the people he said what has just happened what you have just seen has anything like this never happened before it's a rhetorical question the answer is no it's never happened before so what has just happened with wearing 7:21 what's just happened has never happened before sister Brahman okay it's the annihilation of the complete nation of III M you know it's not partial or anything they just do just be wiped away so he scarcely questions this ever happened before then the answer is no so we could we could go through the chapter and then we get to verse 15 alas for the day for the day of the Lord is at hand and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come brother Stephen could you paraphrase that for us 115 you don't speak a lot louder so I can't even hear you I can hear sorry God let's go destruction the Jews what God is going to people where you see Jerusalem in there others those were my words us on to their destruction of Jerusalem was God's gonna punish okay so when I asked to paraphrase if we just try to stick to what the verse says often we're right but sometimes we're not when we add either for knowledge or you know our preconceived ideas if we just stick to what the verse says you're correct but then if you're going to say the know that wasn't I'd asked you demonstrated its Jerusalem if you did that because you can't demonstrate from that one verse in and of itself past present or future sister Rachel present brother Greg past present or future president president sister Tess Bravo Jay bouche brother Gregory in the day which will happen I shall happen to future future mr. Reichel future regret yeah this phrase is that hand is a tricky phrase we would wait where I was gonna say where is it trickiest maybe that is correct I'll say that where is it trickiest Oh what worse what you want usage it could explain in a minute for us what it mean where would we go where it's using its call these people know end of problems yeah brother Nathan what's our topic overall the overarching theme which we have any insight lead in yet I can't hear you sorry what does it mean at hand oh no no I meant for this semester maybe you missed that car trouble Daniel what's the theme of this semester set to begin with at least we may move on to a different subject what subbed you can be looking at first angels message which Bible verse brother James six short six yeah but we're not looking at the start what we're looking at the phrase okay so verse seven it's not going to use the word at hand here it's going to use a slightly different related phrase saying with a loud voice fear God and give Him glory for the hour of his judgment is come so is come is at hand synonymous terms and it causes people problems about how we're going to deal with that phrase what it means so this is why people have picked up Joel 1:15 and said it was present tense I think that's why they were picking that up because it says is that Haley which means normally it's here it's night it's a period of time at the beginning of so so the rest of the big poll would be like sometimes in the coming day the beginning of the period is here but it's not okay so brother Steven said this is the destruction of Jerusalem you agree with that okay but its destruction okay you saying it's already begun period that it happens it has been not necessarily the destruct the period of war but you can say the period of it and say that it is not the destruction but this is the day of destruction is it not you can't have it both ways for Kenya they dared the Lord and he says as a destruction I don't know what that is isn't it that days is the destruction it leaks out not wasteful throw tricks if you're gonna make it a period of time you're saying you're in the destruction and ready so the instructions already started has it already started in verse 15 and as the destruction from the almighty shall it come so brother James wanted to say a day is a period of time hence we're already in it but it's complete fulfillment will be in the future I think that was your logic yes so it's that's your logic how would you identify that it's already started not from the logical diverse the logic of the structure that we've got if we're in 7:21 what's just happened so the instruction if you're going to use that logic if you're correct to use that I'm not saying it's even if you were going to use that you'd be saying that this is the day it's always started here and it's about to come to its completion here if you're going to if you're going to make that argument which are thinking probably a valid argument it's talking about something in the future and what's in the future this is chapter 2 if you if you have them little subtitles in your Bible some of them do it's called what the day of the Lord so this day of the Lord is the destruction of Jerusalem if you if you ran through these pass these verses up to verse 11 it's the destruction of Jerusalem doesn't say I don't think it's I think it may say Jerusalem I can't remember breeched he's talking about the cities are gonna be destroyed and this is gonna be done by the Babylonians so if we were going to make the argument that the day has begun the destruction already began here in 723 and it's gonna end or how she is gonna end we there the Chaya if you're gonna make that argument you could introduce another Bible passage a famous Bible passage what would that be Jeremiah 1 Book of Jeremiah you're going to mark the beginning and the end sister Alyssa you don't wanna say 31 with great taste chapter 50 don't want to give the verse then we can apply this goes into a two levels where I'm a pioneer in with this context verse 17 Israelis are scattered sheep the Lions have driven him away first the king of Assyria has devoured him and last this nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon has broken his bones so if we were going to make this the day like you wanted to then he began with the Assyrians and he ends with the Babylonians we okay with that yeah we could make the beginning Manasseh that's how we would often do that that the Assyrians begin the destruction of the southern tribes with the reign of a NASA and then he ends with Tzedek I you can make that application but this is I think is equally valid are we okay with Jeremiah 50 verse 17 and how we've applied that are we okay with the book of Joel we only went here because she's comparing 1780 with the book of Joel she gives the timeframe for it 2500 years were now able to locate this story back to the destruction of Samaria 723 into 721 the book of Joel says the destruction that you've just seen you ever seen one like that before the answer is no and the response he didn't he doesn't quite say it this way but you're about to see it in a much stronger fashion it's going to be a lot worse the completion of that the destruction of the Lord the book of Joel gives you the opportunity to repent if you so wish to take it but if you don't then the punishments going to come and I just want to bring one more point on this one let's go back to this story here remember this story the papers is going to be punished because it was derelict in this duty we'll put that one aside what's through the classic reason why that gets the deadly wound eyes there ten what was that story because it becomes boastful so we know that once these powers have done their work on God's behalf and they've done the punishment that they're supposed to do then they receive punishment as well are we okay with that sequence they punished God's people then they get punished themselves so tomorrow we'll pick up in the book of Joel someone reminds me because I'd probably like probably forget that we'll just tidy up that loose end let's pray Heavenly Father we thank you for your goodness and mercy we want to ask and pray for a continued blessing upon us as we continue to study your word we ask Lord that these thoughts and ideas that you are giving us would take root in our hearts and our minds that they may begin to mold and shape and change us into the men and women that you desire us to be as we consider the 1260 and the many facets that it teaches us help us to understand the original application so that as we begin to contemplate what they mean to us we would make correct applications for our own history we pray for these blessings in Jesus's name Amen