Explanation of the Shaking




Publish Date: 2/2/2018
Speaker Name: Jeff Pippenger & Parminder Biant
Language: English
Channel Group: ASOTP
YouTube Title: (02-02-18) Explanation of the Shaking-_X961ouEEdg
YouTube ID: _X961ouEEdg



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Heavenly Father's we kneel before you here to put this information in the public record we ask that you'd grant us the presence of your Holy Spirit that clarity can be produced from this discussion over some issues that are purposely being confused by the enemy of truth we ask that you'd give brother Parminder the the wisdom and ability to convey the things that are on his heart on these subjects and we ask that you would bless this interview as it goes out into the arena of this message in movement we thank you for these things in Jesus name Amen I had a brother tell me that that Parminder was teaching something different than I was and I told him no he isn't and he says well if he's not teaching if he is teaching the same thing you are then he needs to start teaching the way you do because his teaching style is confusing things and I thought I put that in my memory bank and I shared it with an elder and he told me he'd heard the same complaint from the same person so these complaints these criticisms the way I've understood them is that we're in the time period were parable teaching its present truth and we go to the history of Christ and it's reference to isaiah 6 and we can actually see brothers and sisters that are hearing this message now that are actually unable to internalize what's being said so I want to put in the record that I'm personally don't expect some of the brethren that are stumbling over these things to be moved by anything that we do here but there's always a a silent majority that's choosing one side or the other so we're going to give brother Parminder opportunity to respond to some of these criticisms and I think well we'll start with one where the the person I know that's been agitating this subject more than other any other this first question I'm an opposed to brother Parminder about the Bible being a dead letter an afternoon break in a Sabbath meeting he and I and some others took a walk around the block where we were at and he brought were started raising this accusation and I walked him through the logic that a dead letter means a letter then ends up in the post office and can't be delivered because of some kind of incorrect address and no return address and it sets there as a dead letter and everyone in that group acknowledged it and it silenced him he realized okay if that's the the logic I get it but he continues on so you even when you're explaining these things to these brethren and they they have they're forced to acknowledge the logic of what brother apartment you're saying it doesn't it hasn't yet restrained any of them from there they're promoting these false accusations so I'll turn it over to you on this first subject what do you mean by the Bible is a dead letter and in in this environment one of the things I want to say before I answer these perceives the questions specifically the questions that we're going to address now most of these issues have only arisen in the last few months and these questions have been sparked by people's inability or unwillingness to actually listen carefully to what I and others but I'll just say what I have actually been teaching and saying and I want to make the assertion that on almost every one of these issues I'm not teaching anything different so either what the spirit of prophecy says directly or what we've been teaching in the movement for many years so this issue about the Bible being a dead letter it's a statement that I made a few months ago and it was based upon a study taken from Hebrews chapter 4 so if we turn to Hebrews chapter 4 this was just the passing comment and what I didn't do at the time was actually go through the chapter which is what my normal practice is and to show the context and direction of what Paul is talking about in this chapter but this is taken from Hebrews chapter four verse 12 and he introduces this verse after discussing the issue of the rest which is we often connect it with the Sabbath hits the rest that Joshua is going to give God's people when they enter into the promised land then Paul switches context slightly and this is next section in chapter 4 which he begins in verse 12 and goes to the end of chapter verse 16 and it reads for the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than two-edged than any two-edged sword piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of the joints and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart one of the assertions that I've made for a long time now this is nothing new is that when a prophet is raised up to give a discourse every time they stand up what their teaching or preaching is not Canon it's not Bible it's not the Word of God they create the Word of God in their own generation and that's what Paul's doing here when he wrote this letter to the Hebrews this was not the Bible the Bible is the Old Testament and Paul along with other prophets but he does it more often than anyone else he has an ability and I've called it a habit of taking Old Testament passages and applying them to his situation his context and when he does that he modifies or changes it slightly he puts a spin on it if if I can use that phrase so he takes an Old Testament passage that's well understood by God's people at the time and the way he's gonna apply it is slightly different when you go to Ellen White's writings she does the same more often than not she gets Bible passages and applies them to unique situations often to people's personal situations or a dynamic that's going in going on in the church which is specific to some controversy that's going on and the way she applies those passages are different to the original setting and more than that because her writings are so extensive she's the most extensive prophet but there I know of that's written anything she takes one particular Bible verse and she will apply it two or three different ways and I think all of us as Adventists are familiar with that and we don't worry about it we in this movement for a long time have taken the license and I've just given two examples Paul and Ellen White that we can take Bible passages and we can apply them in a specific context in a specific way to explain a specific truth and that's what I was doing here in Hebrews chapter 4 verse 12 what I'm referring to now is not the issue about the dead letter it's a different issue when Paul makes this reference in verse 12 he's speaking about the ability of the Word of God the Bible to interact with a human being a singular human being one person and to be able to discern who and what that person is so when the Bible comes to you you read the Bible the Bible brings your conviction you realize who you really are so the way he's using that he's making this statement is that you have the Bible and an individual person and I understand that context and I think if you check on any commentary that's how most commentators understand what Paul he's doing Alan Wright is going to use this passage it's this verse and the verses that surround it but this specific verse and she applies it applies it in a couple of different ways she will apply it on an individual basis and also a corporate level as well and it was based upon that application that Alden white makes herself that what I was suggesting primarily was that when it talks in the verse about a two-edged sword piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit I took that concept of soul and spirit and I said in the original context it's a singular human being but we can make an application that this is talking about two people two groups which is the theme that our movement is built upon whether it's the wise and foolish virgins or the wheat and the tares weighs them for true and false prophets precious and vile over and over again you see these two and I said I believe based upon some allusions that Ellen White makes but just a principle that we use throughout our studies and I believe we have the license to do this to take Bible verses and apply them in our own context our own situation that the soul and the spirit were could be a reference to two groups the soul being a similar representation of man and the spirit been a similar representation of divinity and what I mean by that it's a converted person and an unconverted person and the word of God has the ability to go to two people and it's able to separate those two people it can penetrate into them and discern who is with God and who is against God and that's primarily how I applied that verse then I added two that the Bible in and of itself doesn't have the ability to do that it has to be delivered by a human being and that again is not a new principle in our movement we have discussed this many many times to go to Revelation 10 if you go to Ezekiel 2 and 3 to go to Deuteronomy 18 there are three clear passages that talk about the eating of God's Word and then the sharing of that message to God's people and it's the work of that person to create or separate or divide two groups of people and so when I said that the Bible in and of itself is a dead letter it's that very principle the Bible when it's closed and sitting on the shelf or on the bookshelf cannot do anything to us the only way the Bible does anything in the way Paul writes it a singular human being stands up picks up his Bible and begins reading it and that individual person has an interaction with God and he realizes after coming under conviction who he is that's what how Paul is that that's how Paul is is I can't say using this verse but that's the verse or the idea that Paul is making I'm making an application I'm saying the we take our Bibles and when we give this message we create two classes of people one class is symbolized here by the soul unconverted human beings the foolish the other class is the spirit those who are the wise those who are converted who are working for God now this idea this principle is not something that I just invented if you study through this passage carefully and see how we have applied our message in the past I don't think it's at variance the principles and concepts that we've used in the past and other white comments a lot on this passage and we could we could go to some spirit of prophecy quotes and you could see how I'm not saying she directly does this but you can see how chic it makes inference that this can be applied at a corporate level as well so that was my comment on this issue being a dead letter and let me just make some comment on this so in 7 BC page 928 paragraph 9 7 bc 928 graph 9 this is a letter that she's writing to someone this is the classic understanding of how most people would apply this passage and it's correct practical truth must be brought into the life and the word like a sharp two-edged sword must cut away the surplus of self that there is in our characters so she talked about the bible being able to come to our characters and she talked about cutting the surplus away she quotes this passage so many times it would take us you know over an hour just to read through her quotes this surplice that she's speaking of if you check the context of what it is when it talks about character then we know what character is it's our thoughts and our feelings our thoughts and our feelings are centered in our hearts this surplice that's going to be cut away from our characters that she's referring to I'm saying is the surplus that's in our hearts and I'll portray it this way this is this surplus here you identify it rizzoli Jeff mentioned at the beginning in Matthew 13 and Isaiah 6 specifically but in other places Jeremiah chapter 4 talks about this jeremiah mentions it as foreskin isaiah says it's gross and I think Christ's uses the word fat I think it's in that order or Isaiah may say fat Jesus may say gross I think it's that way around but it's this sin problem in the heart and that's how Ellen way in this passage is applying this verse and I believe that that is true and correct you come to an individual and the Bible has the ability to convert you that's what this is saying the next paragraph paragraph 10 she continues the word makes the proud humble the perverse meek and contrite the disobedient obedient the sinful habits natural to man interwoven with the daily practice but the word cuts away the fleshly lusts it is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the mind it divides the joints and marrow is cutting away the lusts of the flesh making men willing to suffer for their Lord so she developed this point and I think it's an agreement with what I've just said again she's talking about an individual there's another nice quote from great controversy page 133 paragraph 1 this talks about Martin Luther the Word of God by which Luther tested every doctrine and every claim was like a two-edged sword cutting its way to the heart of to the hearts of the people everywhere there was awakening a desire for spiritual progress everywhere was such a hungry and thirsting after righteousness as had not been known for ages the eyes of the people so long directly to human rights and earthy mediators were now turning in penitence and faith to Christ and him crucified there's another nice passage from gospel workers page 367 paragraph 2 ministers should not feel that their work is finished until those who have accepted the theory of the truth realize indeed the influence of its sanctifying power and are truly converted when the word of God is a sharp two-edged sword cuts its way to the heart and arouses the conscience many suppose that this is enough but the work has only begun God's good impressions have been made but unless the impressions are deepened by careful prayerful effort Satan will counteract them that not the labourers rest content with what has been done the ploughshare of truth must go deeper and thus it will surely do if thorough efforts are made to direct the thoughts and establish the convictions of those who are studying the truth so here you begin to see how she's beginning to slightly change the context of this passage because she talks about ministers doing a work she talks about people who are laborers and she mentions the ploughshare of truth must go deeper what she's referring to is the work of a gospel minister who gives a message to a congregation to a people and they begin a work of conversion so she's now going to apply this passage that there's a human Asian who is now doing this work in behalf of God and that's the premise that I was saying that the Bible in and of itself is the dead-letter because it requires a human agent to do this work I am only making an application and iris and I'm certain I said that at the time but people either didn't pick it up or they chose to ignore that but here we have two separate statements the one of them is an individual reads the Bible and another one from the spirit of prophecy she says these are ministers who are giving the Word of God to people and they must continue to work continually for the conversion of people so you can see how she applies these passages differently and this later one in gospel workers is how I was applying this passage I'm just saying if there's a couple more reviewing her evangelism page 236 paragraph 2 evangelism two three six paragraph two and what should the advocates of truth pursue they have Unchained they have the unchangeable Word of God and they should reveal the fact that they have the truth as it is in Jesus their words must not be rugged and sharp in their presentation of truth they must manifest love and meekness and gentle and the gentleness of Christ again she's talking about human agents who were ministers in behalf of God let the truth do the cutting the Word of God is as sharp as a two-edged sword and will cut its way to the heart those who know that they have the truth should not by the use of harsh and severe expressions give Satan one chance to misrepresent this spirit again she's going to use this concept of the two-edged sword as being the words that the gospel worker or the minister is using which is the context that I was applying so one is to say that I'm not fabricating an application of my own volition there is Britta prophecy background or license to do what I did I believe there are many more that we could go go onto but I want to come back to some Bible passages Deuteronomy 32 paragraph 4 verse 41 Deuteronomy 32 41 if I wet my glittering sword and mine hand take hold on judgment I will render vengeance to my enemies and will reward them that hate me now the reason I've gone to this verse because in Hebrews it says sharper than a two-edged sword so that word sharper is being used here but it's using the word wet so when you wet a sword you sharpen it so this short has been this sword has been sharpened so I'm saying these that these are parallel passages connecting it with the word wet so I'm using winning Miller's rules to go line upon line and connect Bible passages together and if you see the the context of what's what's being discussed here it says that God is going to sharpen his sword and he's gonna take it in his hand and he's going to take hold of judgment and he's gonna render vengeance to his enemies the next verse says I will make mine arrows drunk with blood and my sword shall devour flesh and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives from the beginning of revenge's upon the enemy without down into all the context what I want to show here is that the same symbol of a sword a sharpened sword is now a tool in the hand of the Lord and there is enough biblical imagery that all of us know that when you get at all in a tool in the hand of the Lord that's talking about human agencies so when we go from Hebrews 4 which is just the Bible on its own and you connected it with a spirit of prophecy quotes that we read that are now talking about the ministers of the gospel now in this context he's talking about human agents that God is going to be using to punish people and now we should be on familiar territory even though the passage here doesn't directly talk about two classes of people we know that we would use passages like this when he talks about judgment and it talks about the gospel that you can develop a a strong argument to show that there are two groups of people but I'm using this passage to show that the sword is a tool in the Lord's hand and we know that the Bible is not referred to that way the Bible is not at all in God's hand because the Bible is the Word of God you can't separate the Bible from God but the Bible itself uses this symbology of swords as human agents give one more psalms 7 verse 12 so I'm 7 verse 12 is the same principle talks about this sword as that has been sharpened I'm gonna go back to it be nice to go back to being in the chapter but we'll go back to verse 10 my defenses of God which save Earth that upright in heart so you talked about the upright one group God judges the righteous and God is angry with the wicked every day so you have two groups now verse 12 if he turned not which is the wicked he God will whet his sword he has bent his bow and made it ready he has also prepared for him the instruments of death he ordained is his arrows against the persecutors so this was just a brief overview of how I developed that study or even this that it was just a 1:1 a one-liner really that the Bible in and of itself doesn't have the ability to separate two classes of people and I'm and as I say I'm using Hebrews four and I'm making an application which is which I didn't just even invent you can see how it can be used through Bible passages however white uses it in this corporate fashion that we take the Bible and in Deuteronomy and Psalms it's not referring to the Bible there it's referring to human agents eyes air show this really clearly the human agents are doing a work for God they're his ambassadors and the way they do that work Ellen White tells us and we all know is by delivering the gospel to classes of people close with one statement testimonies to ministers page 414 paragraph 2 TM 4 1 4 paragraph 2 we need not say the perils of the last day as soon come upon us already they have come we need now the sword of the Lord to cut the very saw to cut the very soul and marrow of fleshly lusts appetites and passions may it Pierce and divide in a gray in a far greater degree than it has ever done many all the prowl so may the or may all the proud be cast down may the carnally secure be drawn from the refuge of lies with which they have sought to deceive the people of God you see two classes of people may it cut away their self-righteousness and open their eyes and open the eyes of the blind that they may see that they are not hold in the sight of God and again if we if we carefully went through that passage just that one itself I think it would support the premise that I said the the Bible the way we apply in our movement has to be eaten by a human being and that human Asian becomes the voice of God or the representative of God and they do a work of separating two classes of people and the application that I made was the soul and the spirit do there a second accusation that's out there is that this movement is following man or men and they're pointing at that pointing that at your direction but it's all our direction but because you're in the hot seat right now I'd like you to explain how you understand that accusation and if if it's valid or how you understand it this concept this idea about following man is an argument that people have used long before this movement ever existed this is an argument that Paul had to defend himself against and the problem that Paul had was that he didn't have anybody watching his back there was no one to support him and what I'm what I'm referring to is this that all the other apostles had first-hand interaction with Jesus their authority everybody could see if you had gone to the Sanhedrin check the record of their spies they would testify they had evidence of those names of those men that they were with Jesus so everybody knew that now when Paul came along and God instructed him that he was going to be the apostle to the Gentiles the Lord placed him in a very difficult situation primarily because the mission that he'd been given was a mission that none of the other apostles were either really given but neither did they ever seriously understand we know from the book of Acts the when Peter is now going to be pushed by God to begin to interact with the Gentiles he does they're almost kicking and screaming really and he has to take witnesses with him because he knows how serious an issue this is and he himself is really unwilling to do this so he gets forced if you like pushed by God to begin interacting with the Gentiles and his typifying the spirit and the mindset of the Christian Church when we think about the Jews in Jerusalem they really didn't understand the Commission and the work that the Lord had given to them even though he laid it out really clearly you go back to his admonitions to them and he tells them what they're supposed to do but they really don't get this when Paul comes along he understands from the very beginning what his mission is and his problem is because his mission is so far different to everyone else's or that's how it appears because they think they're the the apostles to the Jews and his the Apostle to the Gentiles Darrin understands his methods and his way of working and worse than that he has no stamp of authority because he has to testify on his own behalf and Jesus says if I testified of myself my testimony is untrue so he puts Paul in a very awkward situation because he has nobody to give a second witness that this man is ordained by God and he plagues him through his ministry to the end of his days he has to testify that he was commissioned by a Jesus directly he is the twelfth apostle the Apostle that takes over from Judas Iscariot the issue of Matthias is not a contradiction it's just another symbol that we could under we could we could understand but all the 12 apostles were commissioned directly by Christ and that's why Christ came down to Commission Paul but Paul has no one to give evidence to that so he's playing with this issue about following man now when I make that reference I'm not making a reference that me or anyone else is Paul reincarnated or whether we're poured that's not the point I want to make the point I want to make is that Paul is the apostle who typifies or encapsulates what the Church of emphasis is all about the glorious holy mountain that glorious church Paul is the driving engine behind that movement behind that church and if you want to see the work that we should be doing our point of call our reference point is poor both in other White's writings and in these own and in the book of Acts I mean the whole of the New Testament is basically poor this man had such a powerful influence in shaping and molding the New Testament church and I'm saying this movement not an individual this movement is symbolized by Paul and one of the things that everybody is contending with in pause generation is the who gave Paul the authority to stand up and do what he's doing because what he's doing seems so counterintuitive so different to anybody's idea of what the gospel is he struggling with people in his own movement and he's struggling with obviously the church structure so we'll put the church structure aside because our reference point is that he's struggling with people in the own in his own movement in Ephesus who are accusing him of doing all manner of foolishness there big problem is the doctrines that he's teaching they don't recognize they don't accept then but they don't believe in the way he's sharing the gospel and the primary issue is in that context they don't like the fact that he is allowing sinners Gentiles into the movement without due process and like Daniel they can't actually accuse him of doing anything wrong because he can always defend himself doctrinally he's always got a defense so the only attack that they've got against is that he has raised himself up to a position of authority that no one gave him and when I mean no one the Apostles didn't lay hands on this man to Commission him to his work and I'm not referring to Antioch when I say that because Antioch he wasn't commissioned to be the apostle of the Gentiles that was that was a different anointing he was commissioned and anointed by Jesus directly and everybody knows that was his claim to fame and no one likes it especially when he starts teaching things in a way that people don't understand or they struggle with so he's struggling with this accusation now I'm not saying he struggles with that and so I'm having to deal with that same issue I'm saying this is the movement wide problem the church attacks us because they say and who commissioned you who laid hands upon you to do this work and now in our own movement we have gotten that we're getting the same issue and we shouldn't be surprised by this the people in the time of Paul who were accusing him he calls them the concision and the concision is the made-up word really that he invents the is referring to the mutilators it's people who claim to be in the new dispensation that part of the Church of Ephesus who want to drag the people back into the church the established church what I want to call a decir or Adventism and we see this same issue being brought to view now the within our movement there are people who are saying who made you a voice piece of God who commissioned you to do this work who anointed you and this argument is that they follow people are following man is the same argument and you'll see the dynamics are the same these people who are making these assertions are slowly but surely wanting to drag us this movement back into the church now then I want to drag a far back into the church that we sit in the pews week after week and we became regular Adventists again did I want to go that far but what they wanted what they want to do is hold us back to some traditional position that the church preaches and teaches and the flavor of the month and I want to say it that way because this is not something new the flavor of the month now is the subject of Babylon which hopefully will address later that they're saying we're Adventists we don't believe that the church is Babylon and this is the concision this is the Judaizers of Ephesus that are being manifested in our movement today and the accusation that they have because we can defend all of our doctrinal positions I'm certain of that so the only accusation that they've got now is that people are following man and that is very strange because every single one of these brethren who are now accusing us of man following only accepted less than if we if we want to include include everybody we go back for years everybody four years ago accepted that this movement was being led out by divinely anointed men or man if if you want to take it as a singular many people left the movement and when they left the movement over doctrine issues the first attack that they had was this movement is following man so it's always a recurring theme 12 months ago the same issue occurred because there's a doctrinal fallout people then accuse they accuse us to follow me man and that's what's happening now but there's a nice bit of prophecy quo and all of us are familiar with this I think it's taken from great controversy page 343 paragraph 2 and the reason why this is really important because you'll see in the first phrase no truth is more clearly taught and and that is the key key note of this whole passage there the truth that is clearly taught in the Bible and the truth is most clearly taught in the Bible is that God uses man and we know that because if you go to Revelation or if you go to Ezekiel or if you go to Deuteronomy or if you go to Jeremiah for men and all of those for men Moses Jeremiah Ezekiel and John all of them are fallible all of them are weak and all of them are earring gospel workers page 13 I think paragraph one I think is page 13 or page 14 says it in the first paragraph of the first chapter of gospel workers it doesn't mention all of those four men but it mentions enough men did you know that every single one of these prophets are weak earring which means they make mistakes and she I think she quotes from Daniel she mentions Daniel and Moses and at least one other prophet she says these men make mistakes they're weak and they are not infallible which means they're fallible which means they make mistakes and all of us we stake our whole reputation our salvation our whole lives on the Book of Daniel a man who makes mistakes Rigo spur workers first paragraphs first chapter and she says it explicitly and this is how she's gonna introduce that book and I'm saying what does she mean in that statement because when we take vote that statement in the bring and bring it to our generation the movement that we're in now the dynamics in which we're in we're making in the same application that she's making every one of us has implicit trust in the Bible but the Bible I want to just condense it or collapse it is Daniel it's this week earring man how can we have implicit trust that the Bible is without error is because when Daniel stands as a prophet not as a human being he is infallible he is not weak and he certainly doesn't make mistakes and this is what I've taught for a long time if we went to Isaiah 35 verse 8 in Isaiah 35 verse 8 it talks about a highway of paths and that highway or that path is a symbol of line upon line methodology and it says if you found a path on the line you will not make a mistake even if you're a fool and what I've understood that to mean is that as long as we stick to the Word of God that we fulfill the commission of being prophets that we don't make mistakes just in the same way that Paul Davies and all of these other men follow through with I mentioned those four men a moment ago Moses Jeremiah Ezekiel John all of them when they eat the book they eat those words the words that come out of their mouth are the words of God in arrant without mistake just am i hearing you saying that specific individuals our prophets or are you saying that when a human being eats the little book and presents it to a group of people that he is understood it at one level to be a prophet it's the second point you make I'm saying our understanding of a prophet has been when I say to narrow I mean we haven't looked at this properly some of us if you go to first Corinthians because first Corinthians where Paul speaks about the gifts of the Spirit he mentions prophesying which is the number one thing that we should be doing so that people when they come into the church they can I won't make comment on that but he talks about prophesying in the church when he uses that word prophesying which is what a prophet would do it's not just about predicting the future it's a prophet is another work with another way of expressing a messenger someone who represents God and stands in his behalf another way to use the word profit would be ambassador dos dos I understand those terms to be synonymous now if you're at home and you're gonna do Hebrews 4:12 and study the Bible by yourself and it's gonna do something to you you are not a prophet but if you take any message that the Lord has given to you that you have eaten and you stand before God's people and you speak those words back to them you are now standing in the different relationship to those people then you were when you are at home studying now you stand before those people as a prophet as someone who is delivering the Word of God so I'm not talking about an individual person per se being a prophet I'm saying when anybody stands before God's people they are a prophet you know I'm not I know people will probably miss apply what I'm going to say now and I hope they don't but evangelicals evangelical Christian you know Pentecostals they have some things right and two things they have right is they refer to each other as Apostle X and Prophet Y and Diesel's to regular rank-and-file members when I first heard that I thought how can they call each other apostles that seemed really crazy to me like self exhortation until I looked at this long before I got into this message and I think they have a valid argument to say that a regular church member can be titled as an apostle often we use the word elder or a deacon but possibly the valid appellation to give to someone as is a prophet and they used it freely they dose those terms because they understand the word prophet in its most generous and widest sense to be a representative of God and I'm saying anyone who stands before God's people and tries to whenever when he tries shares the word of God they're standing as prophets before God's people to his representatives that's how I understand that so great controversy 3 4 3 no truth is more clearly taught in the Bible than that God by His Holy Spirit especially directs his servants on the earth in the great movements for carrying forward the work of salvation men are instruments in the hand of God we could have read this passage when we were dealing with Hebrews 4:12 men are instruments in the hand of God we read that in Deuteronomy in Psalm 7 that's that sword that's in the hand of God it's a human agent also we read Harry just in the opening peril opening thoughts to this paragraph that you have God's the Holy Spirit and Men it's the same sequence that we see in John 16 verse 8 Jesus says in first he doesn't directly say he's the comforter but when he leaves his gonna send the comforter God is gonna send the comfort of the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit is gonna speak through Paul and when Paul speaks to Felix in Acts chapter 24 verse 24 and 25 he's going to deliver the everlasting gospel sin righteousness and judgment you see that same sequence being portrayed here Jesus sends the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit speaks through human agents it's something that we've taught I can't say from the very beginning of our movement from but for a very very long time the 18 the little book is a representation that God uses human agents to promulgate the gospel to do his work and Ellen White stresses this point in a number of places their argument is this God could have sent angels to do a work of converting the world but he didn't do that he chose to use and she I think he said something along these lines week earring sinful fallible human beings and we've understood this principle for a long time so when people now come and say this movement is following man I think it's the fourth accusation and I want to add one more spirit of prophecy quote to this it's found in the desire of Ages and it's chapter 50 I find the page in a moment this is that this is a nice a beautiful passage it's the third paragraph down its desire of Ages four five five paragraph three I'm not going to read the whole paragraph but the title of the chapter is among snares so you know what the context of this discussion is about it's about entrapment that's what a snare is a snare is a trap and people are trying to entrap Jesus I'm saying that's exactly what all of these questions are about they're about entrapment and elder Jeff said I'm on the hot seat at the moment and I'm saying people are trying to entrap me by taking my words and miss applying them that's what all of this discussion is about I'm gonna cut through into the paragraph it says the question of these Covina's Jesus met not by answering the cavil but by open up truth vital to the salvation of the soul the perception and appreciation of truth he said depends less upon the mind and upon the heart truth must be receiving to the soul it claimed the on each of the will if truth could be submitted to reason alone pride would be no hindrance in the way of its reception but it is to be received through the work of grace in the heart and its reception depends upon the renunciation of every sin that the Spirit of God reveals I just want to give some context of what's going on here you have two groups you have the Sanhedrin and you have Jesus and you have people who are looking on and these people are trying to understand who is who that's the backdrop of what's going on where these people are trying to entrap Jesus and Ellen White says if you want to understand what's going on you need to have the truth not in your mind but in your heart which is the the picture that we just have up here which is again going back to Hebrews 4:12 man's advantages for obtaining the knowledge of the truth however great these may be will prove to be of no benefit to him unless the heart is open to receive the truth and there is a conscientious surrender of every habit and practice that is opposed to its principles that to me is heart conversion then she says this this is the the punchline if you like of this passage to those who does yield themselves to God which is means those who are converted having an honest desire to know and to do his will the truth is revealed as the power of God for their salvation these will be able to distinguish between him the human agent who speaks for God and him the human agent who speaks merely for himself you have God and man but both of those models got a man they're predicated by him and him so the word of man is being delivered by a man and the word of God is being delivered by a man and the only people who can discern between the voice of God and the voice of a human being and those people who are converted and to me that is a hard saying who can hear it because there are there's a large minority of people in this movement who say they're gonna stand on the sidelines and take some time to work out who's telling the truth and who isn't they want to compare and I'm saying if you can't recognize the voice of God it's indicating that you are unconverted and that is a hard saying but this is not the only place that you can find this you could go to Mount Carmel where Elijah is fighting with the prophets of Bale's process the Bell and you see the same dynamic there you go to John chapter 10 he speaks about robbers and he speaks about the Good Shepherd and it says the sheep hear my voice that word here is referring to recognize they recognized the voice of God because they've heard it before if you want to recognize if you hear the voice of God today you must have recognized it before which I'm saying means you are converted before the sheep are a symbol of those people who are converted and if you're struggling to know who's teaching the truth and who isn't you need to have a heart conversion experience because without that you can never know who's teaching the truth think about this if you're not a Christian because you haven't been converted how can you go to the Bible and expect to understand even when it's teaching because spiritual things are spiritually discerned and the carnal mind Hebrews seven and eight sorry Romans seven and eight the carnal mind cannot appreciate or understand the things of God it's impossible for it to do that so if your unconverted there's no way you're going to know who's telling the truth and who isn't it's an impossibility you have to accept the truth of this message of this movement from its foundation before you can ever be able to discern who's saying the truth and who isn't so that's my response to following man third third accusation is that you have deceived me brother Jeff I don't know how you're gonna respond to that so this deception is the charge that's been leveled not that I've DC builder Jeff but elder chef has been deceived for a number of years now it's not new it's just that now I'm the target of the deceiver if you like all of this stems from Miller right history a misunderstanding of the Miller right reform line because what these people are saying here which really isn't oxymoron when you talk of when you talk about the question before about following man because when they say man and you know I took that man to be me and what I should have done really is actually hand it over and to say which man are you referring to is it this man or this man because the people are asking the next question they're actually admitting that they follow man and that they're required to follow man because if they weren't required to follow man they would never have asked his question because no one's asking me am i deceiving brother john because they don't care if i deceive brother john they're not bothered about him why they so bothered about older jeff for whether i deceived him or not whose business is it who i deceive now I understand on a personal individual level but you know what's buried behind this question about the deception of elder Jeff that I'm accused of doing is that they're scared because they're looking up to older Jeff to direct and guide them whoever them are the movement those individuals who are asking that question and I'm saying if you're worried about elder Jeff because I don't think they're really worried about his salvation they write about their own salvation because everybody's trying to wrote about themselves and they know no they believe they've developed a theology that their salvation is intertwined without the Jets with elder Jeff's not ability but his his role to maintain and direct and guide I say this movement than them that he has a responsibility elder Jeff does to guide and direct their salvation and if I deceive elder Jeff send him down a wrong path they're worried what's going to happen to them it's not them their spouse it's not their spouse their friend but it all comes back to them so they're worried about their own skin when they worried about older Jeff and I'm saying that to me sounds like they're following a man so if this is not the same person those two people need to come together and argue between themselves because you get the point but this argument comes from millerite history everyone knows that William Miller was if I use the word that they're using deceived by men and each of us needs to understand how that deception happened and when it happened and what was going on in that work of deception the deception of William Miller happens after October 22nd 1844 now this is not as straightforward an argument as it may at first appear now we could argue that October 22nd 1844 is closed approbation and we might say that would be the midnight or Sunday law and so that the deception of William Miller occurs after the close of probation I'm not sure how valid that argument is but this question is based upon this issue that William Miller was deceived so the first point I want to make is that the previous question and this one are interrelated I do accept the prayer is that your being led by man great controversy 343 or you're not now I don't want to develop a prophetic argument but I'm saying that's where this came from to say the elder Jeff could or could not be deceived pre October 22nd 1844 or post October 22nd 84 and the reason for that is 22nd of October can be applied at different way marks in our reform line so there is an argument to say the October 22nd isn't midnight where you get the binding off only you can apply that way mark at a different place which opens the possibility that he could have been deceived as a typification of William Miller before the close of probation I'm not sure about all the intricacies of that argument but what I am saying is people may not realize that Ellen is here for myself we don't actually communicate that often where our lives are so busy in different directions we communicate occasionally and the only time we only we really ever get together is a convocation or a task or where where we actually just happen to be invited to the same place at the same time so I'm not sure what actual opportunity I were ever would have had to deceive him people who have followed my presentation know that I've done a lot of presentations and elder Jeff can testify if he's willing to do that now that he doesn't watch anybody's presentations ever that's true so whatever information that he ever gets it's from two sources it's either directly from his own personal study three sources or some email or online communication that someone will ask him a question or give him a study and the third place would be at a prophecy score or a convocation where he's in the congregation and listening to a study and I guess it's whether all people believe it or not it's rare I can't think that the last time I I don't think I've ever I said don't say I've ever sent Eldridge ever study to say they I've done a study have a look at it I may ask him a question I may give him a thought but unlike many people who'd send him studies I've never sent him a study of mine I don't think and obviously I'm not part and parcel of his personal studies so the only interaction we've ever had is if he's in the congregation and I'm presenting nestling the only time the only place that I could ever have deceived him if I've deceived him then I guess I've deceived a lot of people which is probably what people are going to argue so if people are going to say I've deceived elder Jeff I would want to know on what particular doctrine do you believe I've deceived him on and the wonder as I say the favor of the month on this subject is not Babylon per se it's the nature of man and this reminds me of 1888 where Wagner and Jones now stand up commissioned by God and often I asked this question and I say what was their message and most people today say they were commissioned they were raised up to give the message of righteousness by faith and I'm saying that's incorrect their message was not the message of righteousness by face they were not commissioned to do that work their Commission was to give the third angels message specifically the empowerment of the third angels message now we could argue that one different than the number of different levels the church had begun to misrepresent began to teach the third angels message in the wrong way so they were there to straighten that out but not just that because the straightening out of the third angels message was its empowerment just before the Sunday Lord the great test that was about to happen so their work was to give the third angels message and when they stand up there people are accusing them they say if this is the third angels message I'm not having anything to do with it because I've never heard any third angels message presented like this before and Ellen White stands up and says that sounds like what I've been preaching for the last forty eight years forty four years it sounds the same message to me and everybody's saying doesn't sound anything like I've ever heard before what I want is to see that their message was not righteousness by faith it was the third angel's message but they the language that they use is so obscure to the church and it's the language of righteous by faith I'm not arguing that point they say we're going to throw all of this out another what says what you doing I've been preaching this for the last 40-plus years have you not been listening in fact not just me she doesn't say just me she says her and her husband and her husband is not a prophet but he's as Moses to God's people he says both of us we've been preaching this for a long time so an elder Jeff stands up on this issue about the nature of man as one example and he says I've been believing this I'm not saying he said I preach this because we haven't preached or spoken about the nature of man in this movement I say forever we haven't really made it a subject of doctrine but when he says that sounds like what I've been believing all this time people are now turning around and saying let me set you right now who elder Jeff you never believes the nature of man like this we know what you believe we'll tell you what you believe and they're going to dig up some old information somewhere and say that's what you used to believe and now older Jeff does not have the authority the permission to say I think you misunderstood me let me tell you what I used to believe because they're saying no we'll tell you what you used to believe and this is what's been discussed here when he talks about the deception is based upon an idea an old argument that William Miller was deceived by men and that's what elder Jeff is doing and at the same breath these people say we won't even be led by men and I'm saying that's what oxymoron because why do you even care about ology of salvation any more than anyone else is because Weis his name on this list compared to all the other people is because people have a fear a god-given fear first angels message that the Lord has raised up a man to lead and direct a movement which is an agreement with great controversy three four three and they know that and they're worried about this man being misdirected by other men who are nobodies like me and that's what their theories it's not a fear about him it's a fear about themselves and I'm saying if you have such confidence in this man you know to Jeff when he tells you something why do you say we don't believe what you're saying because if you can't believe him on this issue how can you believe in that you can direct a worldwide movement it's just the arguments of fallacious they're crazy arguments so I don't know if I could say any more on more on that issue well I'm kind of slow in my work of producing articles for a newsletter so I can't make no promises about the next newsletter but I've been working on a newsletter and I just want everyone to understand I remember when where and how I come to understand the nature of Christ and I never moved from that ever and it was it was just amazing to me when I seen Parminder in the last trimester setting forth his understanding of the nature of Christ and nature of man and it's identical to what I came to understand at the very beginning of my public ministry that just a personal observation but I know that there can be snippets taken out of presentations that are put in a false light to make people appear to be teaching something that they don't believe but it doesn't change my understanding of these things okay so the fourth the fourth issue I want you to answer for us if you could is you've been accused of being a false prophet because of your understanding of 2014 that you had in 2012 and I'll just turn it over that has a lot of a lot of issues in it and you know how you want to address that so this question there was there were three questions that are all interrelated and they're all about 2014 I want to introduce this in the following way I sit down first other white in early writings says the William Miller's mind was guided by angels she is the angels in the plural and the his angel which i think is an influence to Gabriel but angels guided his mind and she connects this guiding of his mind to the chain of truth and link after link is given to him there's a nice statement in his apology and defense where he says that he he went to chronologies and according to the best chronology as he could get he had three days and it's I think it's tight with the commencement of the prophetic periods something along that line so when you tire that together he has three commencement dates and those three commencement dates are the commencement dates that are on this chart here the 1843 chart they're right here one two three there the three prophecies that he focuses on and it's the twenty five twenty to twenty hundred days in the thirteen thirty five and the three commencement dates that he has is 677 457 and 508 and all of those three prophecies if I can sketch it out like this all take you to the same point here 18:43 and he's given 677 457 and 508 1335 twenty three hundred and twenty-five twenty and this is not a study on the subject but I want to make a point we used this argument this logic to show that the 2300 days is part of the twenty five twenty and thirty thirty-five is part of it so we could collapse all of them and we could say that this is the chain of truth and these remarks are links in the chain so I could redraw that and and have these links here like this so we'd have four links 677 457 508 1843 for links 4-way marks and I've presented a study like this numerous times before now the problem with this is that there's the mistake that's embedded in all of this and I think people understand that and the problem is that these two here they take you to 1844 and this one takes you to 1843 and that's what this chart is all about you know correcting that mistake now in our movement we recognize this but we really don't make much of an application of this and I'm not here to to actually do a study on this now but just to make you aware that this mistake that the Miller writes have made now have an impact upon our message and the impact that it has has great significance to what we understand and what we should be what we should be understanding in our movement and I just want to briefly explain that all of these are connected to the twenty five twenty because that's what William Miller Doug Williams they're all coming to a singular endpoint now this 1843 is the 19th of April which is the first day of the first month which is 9/11 so we can develop an argument that based not only just based upon their mistake but because they made this mistake we can now understand some truth the weaker mark at 2520 here occurring at 9/11 and we can do that based upon this argument or this mistake that they made and we all know that the 2520 itself ends in 1844 and 1844 October 22nd in and of itself can be applied at different places we can now apply this it at midnight at the Sun dealer in different places and this is also the 2520 so what all I'm saying here is based upon the mistake that they made it's open up new light for us now I'm not saying God likes people making mistakes or he designs that they should make mistakes but this mistake was I'm not saying designed by God but it was coordinated by him he'd feel sorry and even though this mistake which is a glaring mistake is now actually part of the present truth message that we get now I'm not going to discuss why it's important to have to understand that you get twenty five twenty at different places in our reform line but I'm just showing you that based upon this mistake that this is so now this is not my defense that I made a mistake on the subject of 2014 but it's an introduction to it fight it so if you hold these two thoughts maybe it will come clear as they go through so 2012 in our little friendship group we began to develop some studies based upon what I thought was an established principle in our movement that in Daniel chapter 5 where it says meanie meanie said could you fasten that this is 126 shekels and only a short while before 2012 weird in this movement recognized that you could go from 1863 to 1989 and this 126 years was being symbolized here by this mini mini Terkel you're far seen in Daniel chapter 5 and after those studies were done and some people develop those study slightly but mostly that whole thing just died a death until perhaps the last 12 months or so where these studies been resurrecting them and they've been refined somewhat and a lot of the loose ends have been tied up wonder loose ends that have been tied up is to understand how we how we use this one to six why it was one to six the purpose of this one to six again we're not going to study this now but we know it's 126 shekels which equals 25 20 gara and you can find this calculation in a number of places I think it's Exodus 30 verse 13 and Ezekiel 43 I think is he's Vidia 43 I can't remember what verse so we had the basic understanding of these passages and the argument developed that you could get this 126 which was many many tickle your fasting and you can do this calculation it was a second witness to the time at the end basically in 2012 someone asked a question that if you took 1888 and you I did 126 to that it would take you to 2014 and the question was if 1888 and I think at that time it was fairly well known people discuss this openly that in 1888 there was a Sunday law that if there was a sunder in 1888 then in 2014 using this principle of 1/2 sticks could we expect there to be a Sunday law here and we began to investigate and study this and let me just make sure that I'm addressing all of this question so here we are in 2012 and we're now predicting in our study that maybe 2014 in two years time there's going to be a Sunday law so I'm not sure the usefulness of going back and giving some background information there any usefulness in that and sort of naming names and personalities in some of the dynamics or just said just do the doctrine ok so I began to dialogue with older Jeff on this saying you know we've come across this thing what do you think about it he emailed you back and said well it's your study nothing to do with me it's carry on and I'm not saying that was a not a license to to carry it to say that this was truth but I just took it the fact that and I do that often I say I have no answer Carol's studying to see what the Lord opens up to you but I never got any you know statement to say this is foolishness this is wrong so I we carry on studying this and unfortunately people began to get really excited about this we recorded some of those presentations and people going to share it outside of our little circle so people win the movement outside of our group began to hear that we were making this prediction and as could be expected people began to suggest that this was fanaticism and the fanaticism is about the idea that Allen weigh in at least early writings pay 74 in in other places well talks about we have no message that's connected or hung up on time she says things like the third angels message is stronger than time we don't have a message that's hung on time and here we are talking about third angel's message any and appear that it was being hung on time so to cut a long story short toward the summer into the fall of 2012 the whole subject just died the death but what people are not aware of is when we were looking at this subjects of 2014 at the very tight at the very same time we began to discuss specifically the issue of Karaite reckoning and there are a number of other associate he studies but one of the ones that I'll do recall clearly where we were looking at Carrick reckoning and rabbinical reckoning and Gregorian reckoning and we and the reason I mention that is because in 2014 carrot reckoning became present truth in our movement and all I'm saying is that we began to investigate this two years before but all those studies essentially just got shut down so I wanted to just place that in the public record cuz not many people are aware of that so in 2014 it came and went and everybody said see there was no Sunday Laura it's all the false prophecy and it was all craziness rubbish and so that's part of this accusation about me being a false prophet that I made of prophecy back in 2012 and it was never fulfilled in 2014 but what I found interesting is since then and we began to see this not only before 2014 but particularly post 2014 the 2014 has been a watershed year if you replace it as a way mark it was a turning point in this movement in many many different ways for many different reasons internally and externally and I think now pretty much it's an established truth that 2014 is a prophetic way mark in our movement and the prophetic ray mark depending upon who you ask and I'm going to name three ministries I can't even name three ministers really is it because one of them isn't brother mark Bruce tree of life they teach loosely speaking a reformed line that looks like this 911 2014 and midnight so this would be tree of life there's a brother from the UK who does presentations on Psalm 23 if you asked him what his reform line would look like it looks like denti-cal to this one so I put Psalm 23 and if you were to ask me what our reform line looks like it would look the same so I'm just going to put FFA as a kind of a symbol to cover what this movement is because I don't know what can't just put say the movement so I'll just call it FFA I'll put me now I'm not part of FFA but I'm just saying this is the Association and if they plus me so all of us have got the same reformed line he looks the same so everybody is agreeing now in 2014 what's interesting is that when this study was being done in back in 2012 people who were members the Tree of Life then it wasn't there wasn't a minute ago tree of life but those individuals they disagree that 2014 was anything they said it was error and not only they were saying it was error there were a ministry path to adjust and I used pastor just as they a catch-all because there are other people who are associated with those minutes with that ministry not just pastor just many many brethren all of them were resisting 2014 back in 2012 and in 2014 all these people I'll put paths to adjust here no I put it here they left the movement here in 2014 and I thought that was an interesting coincidence I don't know what you want to call it and I say coincidence facetiously of course they left the movement here in 2014 and when they left the movement I'm marking that as June 2014 now we could argue about what month that was and the reason I marked you to June 2014 because there was a process called in there a prophecy school all of what we currently understand was really put into the public domain a really clear and concise fashion and I want to encapsulate that with the phrase of is Ezra 7 so we've got pastor just leaving which is which was the major split in our movement the first major split we've got Azra 7 and in the same month we've got isis who's claiming now to be the Caliphate of Bible prophecy now I'm not saying they understand Bible prophecy but when they talk about the caliphate they're talking about they are the 3rd jihad and they trace their roots back to al-qaeda and they saying this is the culmination of all of that so there are a cluster of events that are going on here I'll also want to put Russia in here because Russia I think is in February invade the Crimea so everybody now recognizes that there were many many events that are going on here America goes into I'll say it was a secret alliance I don't know how secret it was at the time but it's open its open knowledge now and night on 9/11 they're in meetings with Saudi Arabia about how to deal with the Syrian problem because the backdrop of all of this Syrian war I don't if we we knew we know and I can't remember all the historical dynamics about it but there's a pipeline that wants the that people want to run through Syria so so a lot of the the Syrian conflict that we're having now is about an a pipeline that wants to be that people want to run through Syria which is the exact same dynamics as the Afghan war from 79 to 89 because they're they wanted to run a pipeline through Afghanistan and that's what sparked that war to make sure on one little point when you're saying 9/11 there you're saying September 11th 2014 this alliance between Saudi Arabia and the United States takes place yes it's a little on that day you can you can go on the internet and it's you'll see it was September the 11th so there are so many events that are happening here though people are now I think people now accept that 2014 was a way mark these three groups explain 2014 in a different way so people who teach Psalm 23 tree of life they recognize some major event in 2014 but they will not accept that 2014 was also a date that could be calculated and the reason they object to that is because the calculation was done here beforehand I haven't asked them directly recently because people are changing their position but I do know that the people of Tree of Life if you ask them back here about this calculation they accepted it they said you can do that because it's passed but you can't do future prediction even though the methodology is the same now if we were here in 2018 and someone virgin do you know from from scratch did this calculation I think most people would say yeah you could do that because it's in the past there objection was that we're making the prediction but today I'll say they all agree that something happened in 2014 and their what they cut what they what their common point of reference is is the ejection or the separation of path - just from this movement in that history in fact the people who teach Psalm 23 they actually make a prophetic way mark of this because when you go to Psalm 23 it talks about walking through the valley of the shadow of death and it talks about the paths of righteousness now if you talk about the path of righteousness we know that righteousness and justification and synonymous terms so them date and they mark this path of righteousness that you walk along at 2014 that's the way they developed their study so there you're making the prophetic ray mark that the path of righteousness is the path of the just and they're marking it ties up with the name of this ministry that they might not make it in a strong fashion like I'm saying but that's in the public domain that they're teaching that people who teach time 23 so they mark 2014 and if you were back here and you knew about Psalm 23 beforehand you could predict that Pastor just would fall off the path you may not have known the date but they're going to fall off the path because their name ties up with Psalm 23 it's only afterwards when you see how things come together that you see how the Lord has led in all of these things so all of us are teaching 2014 but we're teaching it in different ways I'm saying 2014 is developed from this one to six and they're saying you can't do this because this is time setting now I don't have all the answers on this issue of time setting but I'm saying based upon the testimony of two or three and three a thing is established if I go back here to 89 if you go back one to six for each of these prophecies you'll see that they all touch way marks 1863 so 1989 is 126 1888 to 2014 is 126 and 1875 to 911 is 126 in 1875 marks the publication day of a biography by James white of William Miller's ministry and in that publication their biography that he writes he says that the only mistake William Miller made was that he got the date wrong and I understand that to be however way you however you want to understand what James White is saying or not saying in 1863 1864 juanique when they create the new charts and they reject the 2520 that James White with whatever he believes I don't know but in his public statement he's now retracted back and saying that William Miller's 2520 is not wrong because the only thing he says that would admit I made a mistake on his the year 43 and 44 so this becomes a prophetic way mark 1875 and you now have three testimonies in our reform line with a 1 to 6 now we've learned a lot more about the 126th than we knew way back here in 2014 because the 1 to 6 now is everywhere and what I mean by that is that the 1 to 6 is a symbol of a reed and if we go to hopefully I can find it I think it's Ezekiel 43 verse 13 is equal 43 verse 13 and these are the measures of the altar or to the cube it's the cube it is a cube it and a hands breadth even the bottom she'll be a cubit and the breadth a cubit and the border there off by the edge there of roundabout should be a span and this shall be the higher place of the altar so I think I'm gonna have to just double check it in my notes because this calculation here of this measurement that's being made here comes to the number 126 pretty sure I'm not gonna be able to do it off the top of my head now so if you if you do the calculation of this sorry I found it's the right passage but I'm gonna have to do it from memory what I'll do is I'll do a short note on it and like I'll write it out and we'll tag it to the video at the end a little study on just this numbering but the calculation of this is that it's 18 inches plus 3 inches which is 21 inches and if you again cuz I don't take too much time on this if you go through this calculation in these verses what you'll see is that the measurement here is 6 of all of this so if you times this by 6 you get the number 126 and this 126 inches because these are all inches is this measurement tool that's going to be used which is this read I'll lay it I'll do it I'll do a little study on it and also as I self tag it onto the end of this study but where you can show from this passage is that a read is 126 and you see this read being used in many different passages you can find it in revelation 11 this is the measuring line that we talked about in Isaiah 28 you see that Jesus is struck with a read over and over again this read or this 126 is portrayed through the scriptures so the number 126 becomes an important symbol of Bible prophecy that's why in Daniel chapter 5 it doesn't jump straight to the 25 20 because when we first did these studies way back in 2012 2014 everybody ignored this and they said there's just times it by 20 and you get 25 20 in it and you know we would just do that without understanding the implications of what's going on the other thing about 120 see is again what we would do would we would say this we'd say that the 2520 is 1/2 is 1260 times 2 and we'd say this is the paper persecution that the 1260 so we'd get 1260 and we'd say we if we just dropped the zero off we'd get 1 to 6 and and argue that the one to six was a symbol of the 2520 we would do that and you know most people would let us get away with that and that's how we understood it but now we understand that it's not just dropping zeros you know in an ad hoc fashion but there's a system there's a doctrine to understand how and why we do this and we can find this principle and write the principle first it's that the number 10 is a symbol of the remnant so that's the principle that we're using enough 1/10 is a symbol of the revenant and you find that in isaiah 6 13 and revelation 11 13 i think they're the two passages that we find it so we know that the story about daniel 5 is talking about god's people after 1798 it's a remnant this is the same as revelation 12 verse 17 the remnant of the seed so when we start applying 25 20s to the remnant we won't use it 25 20 we won't even use the 1260 we have to use this tenth and so that's why we've got 1 to 6 because we're going to take a tenth of 1260 and the other argument that we have to show this is we see the 25 20 is two sequential 1260s paganism and papal ism but we also know that in this history here of papal ism so I'm going to get the papal is and show you this this 1260 it's the church and the state coming together the church is papal ISM and who is the state this is paganism and you can you can show that this paganism is pagan Rome whether its literal pagan Rome or whether it's the seven Germanic tribes as we often call them who were on the head of pagan Rome they're also a symbol of pagan Rome so this church and state is pagan and papal so we know that when God's people are being persecuted in this history that it's not just half of the twenty five twenty because the twenty five twenty can be understood like this - twelve sixties running parallel to one another and when they run parallel to one another and you come to the remnant it's not 2520 it's not 1260 but it's one to six so what this argument about 1 to 6 is now a biblically established truth this is just a brief overview of the logic of how you go from 25 22 1260 to 1 to 6 so you can see the 1 to 6 we've got a methodology to establish that 1 to 6 is is a valid symbol we've got 1 2 6 3 times already in our reformed line and people are arguing and complaining that that you can't do this type of calculation with dates because Ellen White says time she'll be no longer that our opponents the people who defend this truth say well ok / Minda got the date right but he got the event wrong so give him some slack so which is nice gonna say there was no Sunday law in 2014 so I'm saying by faith there was a Sunday law in 2014 and what my challenge to people is is go back into 2014 and find some external event some law that was passed something that happened that we could identify it as being the Sunday law now I'm not saying that just to say get me out of a hole or because I want it to be a Sunday law there I'm saying the reason why I'm say now today that there was a Sunday law in 2014 he's based upon line upon line methodology based upon fractals and that's why I think let me rephrase it this way what people don't see is that all the opposition that we get whether it's back in 2012 2014 2016 2017 and now into 2018 do you have all these different people who argue against us they've all got their little pet arguments all separate arguments and I'm saying they're all the same arguments first presentation I did this week I said it's all the foundation is jealousy but I don't want to make that point now I'm saying the people who will claim that there was no Sunday law here that you can't do all of this is all wrong I reject in just one issue which is fractals I just say that's just one common point that they're rejecting they're rejecting fractals people like another example of this is we said God's dealing with Manny's ever the same if you see how they run their lines they're teaching that that isn't so because they've broken some of the rules that I think were established in our movement for a long time and they're certainly breaking all of those rules and people aren't aware of what's going on so I'm saying you can prove the 2014 there was a Sunday law there when you understand and we don't have time to study this when you understand how the reform line of the 144,000 works when we started talking about priests Levites and their phonemes I don't know why this happened maybe it's probably dental I shouldn't say that maybe it is probably dental but I'm saying we went about the whole problem the wrong way we should never have gone to the reformed line of the priests and developed all of this thinking and and thought that we could understand what was going on then we went to the Levites and the Nestor names and you have probably seen studies that look like this where you have the priests the Levites and the Netherlands and we have all these different way marks and they all cascade down and we think we've out we've got that all right but we've got misconceptions about how these things work and the reason we've got this misconception when I say we I mean individuals in the movement is because when the whole problem was first discussed and developed we went backwards and now what I'm trying to do is say let's go back and look at the problem as we should have done we should go from a common point of understanding and then work backwards in the common point of understanding is chapter 38 and chapter 39 of the great controversy which is the story of the 144,000 and I'm saying that if you take the reformed line of the 144,000 as a template and then use that to go back into the reformed line and we'll just talk about the priests you can demonstrate that there has to be a Sunday law at 2014 you have to have one there this reformed line teaches that now the rafale 144,000 you have to do some other studies just to prove and demonstrate that so when you come to the followed 144,000 there are two established truths that all Adventists should know that this is the second Advent this is the close of probation than you 12:1 and this is the Sunday law all of that beast all of this information here all of this is taken from those two chapters and one more piece of information she identifies the latter rain here now you might need to go to other places to bring in this new experience a quote but all of this is established Adventist teaching for generations we've got Jacob's time of trouble and we've got the seven plagues everything here is not new in our movement this latter rain here what I'm going to do is I'm going to draw this line back and this way mark here for an Adventist would be 1844 former rain so Ellen White would say we're in the form of rain she has she's not gonna give you any clues of any information in this she's gonna pick it up from 1844 and she says you need to get your character all sorted out before the latter rain which is that the Sunday law and then you go to close of probation Jacobs time of trouble so this is a referring the 144,000 all this movement has done if I can say in that kind of insulting fashion is all we've done is we've said it's not 1844 it's 1989 and we're putting 911 all we've done is had to weigh marks into an established reformed line the Ellen White already gave us we're just added or refined this part of the discussion not this part and this part is where we have misconceptions in our movement on the establishment the thing that we're all happy about is this bit the bit that we worked on that we the Lord directed us to 89 and 911 it's this bit that we've had problems with and the studies that I want to do in reference to 2014 not solely but others other kindred dealing with this issue here so I want to set that in place I'm saying that this is the former rain the latter rain all of that is straightforward and this is the time of preparation when you talk about rain you have to go into an agricultural model I'm saying there's the plowing there's the sowing former rain and latter rain then harvest because this jacobs time of trouble is the binding off and it's harvest so this is the brief overview of the reform line of the 144,000 and I'm saying I'm sure this is correct the reason I'm saying that is all of this is straight from spirit of prophecy we haven't generated that you just straight read it and that's what you would create we're just added this bit at the front end and I think most of us agree about 1989 to 9/11 preparation and former ain't I've I'm saying this is the template that I'm going to use that we should be using to generate a reformed name for the priests you have to have one more piece of information if we're going to take this and superimpose it upon the line of the priests so this is the 144,000 when you take the priests line you have 1989 and you have 911 and then white has a nice statement here when she's going to refer to this a Jacob's time of trouble but if you go to patriarchs and prophets I can't remember the page offhand but I'll check it in a moment she says when Jacob goes to the brook Jabbok and fights with the angel it's at midnight where he gets into trouble so we know that this is midnight here in the little story and we're going to make a symbolic application so here's midnight and here's the midnight cry and this is the binding off and whisk but we've mentioned this as being Jacob's time of trouble for a long time so he our line here and there has to be another line here another way mark which is the transition from former rain to latter rain and I'm saying that this based upon the study of Matthew 13 Hosea chapter 10 mark chapter 4 this was 2014 and it's based upon all of these events where the separation began to happen so 2014 marks the transition from the former rain to the latter rain now I've taught this like this just this was reforming of the priest independently of tying up with the line of 144,000 for a long while and some people have objected but many people have seen the truthfulness of this so if I were just going to do a study of this I would teach from Matthew 13 that this was the former rain this was the latter rain and this was the preparation and what's so sad is that in September 2016 in fact that prophecy school is that a prosecuting Germany it finished on 9/11 the brethren who were seated in that prophecy school when they laid this truth out accepted it they could see the truthfulness of this about the former rain and the latter rain and since then all I've done is just develop that study but when you take this truth and you line it up with the reformed line of the hundred forty-four thousand you can see that the Sunday law drops down here to 2014 so when people who argue against me that say you can't bring time sitting into this argument I'm saying you already have two witnesses that time is a component of our message and I believe this to be a valid application and the only objection that they have is that it was done beforehand so that's one argument that they have and then people who give me more license than they're okay he got the date right but the event wrong it can't be it there was no Sunday law there I'm saying when you line up the reformed line of the hundred forty-four thousand with the priests you see that there is indeed a Sunday law there and if people ask me now well what was the Sunday law I say frankly I don't know what it was but we need to go back into that history and carefully review all the events that are occurring because and this is a later question I'll say it this way the lines direct us that there was a Sunday law and if you step off the line if you step off the highway Isaiah 55 verse eight you're always gonna be blindsided to this you have to reject all of this but if you stand up on line upon line line upon line methodology I don't know how you can escape the reality that you just see how everything's lining up they show you there's a Sunday law here that's a brief overview of 2014 can I add something here just briefly for many years now when we take the big picture of the reformed line up there the one on the right side you got a 1989 you can point to the secret alliance between the United States and the Vatican and see it a Sunday law typifies there you can go to 1995-96 the formalization of the message and the message was the shut door message that's connected with Sunday law you can go to 911 and we pointed the Patriot Act which is typifying the Sunday law and go to midnight which typifies a Sunday law midnight cry is the first Sunday law and the Sunday law is a Sunday law so you have more than two or three witnesses that every one of the way marks on this prophetic line somehow someway typify Sunday law so by faith you don't it'd be better to have a historical event but you don't have to have a historical event every one of these way marks is the way marks that are associated with the end time issue which is the shut door which is Sunday law so 2014 even if you can't see a direct historical witness based upon the witness of more than two or three the Sunday laws implicit in that line in that way mark I would think and we've done that with other other elements but anyway I won't say more on that there's more we can say but we'll lead that okay we've got one final thought I'm sorry you believe you teach that the lines overrule Trump the Bible and spirit of prophecy and you believe the seventh-day Adventist Church is babbling maybe we'll get to your Sikh religion afterwards so this argument that the lines Trump the Bible in the spirit prophecy is again an accusation that's leveled against me and it's phrased in different ways and this is connected to the idea that people say that I teach that the church is Babylon so what I'm saying is this that unless you're a converted person you're not fit to be able to interpret the Bible and spirit of prophecy you can read it it can have the ability to convert you at some basic level because some things are relatively easy to understand but spiritual things are spiritually discerned so if you want to understand what the Bible is teaching on any subject especially when we think about the end of the world and prophecy because that's the context of all of this discussion all talking about this ultimate spirit prophecy either one then you have to be able to divide the Word of God correctly and adventism does not know how to do that period we have no prophetic bearing on being able to go into the Word of God and decipher e with Tony's for a long time that's the subject of the four generations the four generation subject is a systematic destruction of Adventism this is the captivity that we entered into this is the 1260 the Dark Ages the papal persecution that we are in as the church from 1863 to 1989 so I'll draw that in a simple fashion 538 to 1798 lines up with 1863 to 1989 this is the line of the woman 100 so 1260 this is the line of the seed of the woman 126 this is the time of the end this is Thyatira where God's people are seduced and are being taught by Jezebel revelation 2:20 and it's the same history that we're in I'm not teaching that we have Jesuit infiltration in 1863 in fact I make the point strongly that this concept of Jesuit infiltration into our church is an erroneous concept it's a red herring the problem in our church is not Jesuits the problem is whoredom we have prostituted ourselves to the world in fact we're so bad we pay our customers to sleep with them which is show you how bad we are so this progressive destruction over four generations 6388 1919 1957 four generations that you go through the way I think we should conceptualize this is that the papacy which is Mystery Babylon has taken us captive or we've gone into captivity because all of these doctrines are based upon Catholic theology and it leads here questions on doctrine where we totally destroy our sanctuary message we separate in 1919 the prophetic gospel from the work of morality 1888 we reject the third angel's message in 63 rejected 25:22 daily it's a systematic destruction of Adventism and so by the time you come to 18 1989 God's now going to call his people out of Babylon and we have at least two witnesses for this 1798 God's people fight IRA transition from tire tires to sadist and here you've got Mystery Babylon Europe you leave Europe you go to America Europe is Babylon Mystery Babylon with the papacy rules she sits upon the kings of the earth the kings of the earth are the kings of Europe so that's one testimony that you have here second testimony is a testimony of Cyrus Isaiah 45 Cyrus is going to deliver a deadly route to Babylon and he's gonna free God's people they're gonna leave Babylon and go to the glory town you have two witnesses that at the time of the end there's a call to come out of Babylon so I'm saying here at the time of the end the first angels message the first angels message is the message of Revelation 18 verse 4 it's a call to come out of Babylon the languages used in Revelation 14 fear God give him glory for the hour of his judgment has come but nevertheless it's also a message to come out of Babylon the first group that came out of Babylon that came out of this spiritual captivity was this movement whom we call the priests so the priests of already come out of this Babylonian captivity the adventism is still locked into if we go one step back all of these truths are built upon a singular prophecy Daniel 8:14 Daniel 8:14 is the 2300 day prophecy and one of the primary characteristics of the 2300 day prophecy is that it teaches about judgment the 2300 days you only need to go as a ax to prove this as a 2817 the twenty hundred day prophecy is about judgment and it's not just about the end point it's about duration but the twenty hundred days remember is the last part of the 25 20 the 25 20 is all about bringing judgment but the 2300 days if you go from 457 to 34 to 1888 teaches the judgment that first comes to the church and then the world that's what Oh 1844 judgment first comes to the church within the world all we have done is refined the issue about the church and we can find it in a number of places but we say now the church one and the church two from now you've got the church one two in the world and we've symbolized that by priests Levites and Netta names and we're doing that based upon the sanctuary model because the sanctuary is one of the present truth messages that are going to bind us together so we've got priests and the Levites here so all we're doing is saying this the DES priests came out of Babylonian captivity it's not that we came out of Adventism the Adventism is babylon Adventism is in Babylon in this history and post this history the first group of people that came out are us the pre this would be C one church one priests all I'm doing if we were to say that this was 1844 close of probation shut door I'm saying before the door shuts there needs to be a second call for the church to which we called the Levites to experience what we're experiencing which is to come out of this Babylonian captivity which is the degeneration of our prophetic message this group here c2 is every single Adventist that is not in this movement it's a call to all of them to come out of this experience it's not a call for individual people to come out of the seventh-day adventists structure it's about every single Adventist to come out of a philosophical degeneration of our prophetic message that's what we're teaching people are deliberately because that's the only way I can because I've said this a number of different ways over the last two or three months so I can only assume that they're doing it deliberately they're refusing to listen to what we're saying and what they will do is we'll go to Ellen White quotes and say we don't care what you say because it just sounds like you're calling the church babbled on and where they're saying we are seventh-day Adventists and we just follow the spirit of prophecy and if you're fighting spirit prophecy you can't call the church Babylon and another thing they add to that is even if you're not calling the church Babylon there cannot be a calling out of the church so what they mean by that is if you've got the church structure they cannot be a calling out of the people who live in that church into this movement and they're going to use it Ellen White to demonstrate and to prove that and you have to ask yourself the question is their application of dough spirit prophesy quotes correct or is everything that we've ever understood about line upon line methodology wrong do we believe that the work of Ezra the work of Jeremiah and we could go on and on the work of the Millerites is all of that nonsense or an ageist historical stories that have no end time application because if ever end time application then I would ask people when you go to zechariah chapter 2 verse 6 he says ho-ho and we're talking this for a long time that that's a doubling it says flee from the land of the north i think some people have Mis applied that passage in the past I'm asking where the zechariah live is he living in Babylon or is he in the glorious time when he makes that statement and everyone knows he's in the glorious land and the people that are in the glorious land are the ones that came out of Babylon into the glorious thing here so here we have Babylon and here we have glorious land and here Zachariah making this call to flee from the land of the north and who's he talking to he's not talking to Babylonians he's talking to God's people now if you want apply that to the Sunday Lord the United States National Sunday law you can do that it's a correct application but we know then it's also an application in our reform line it's a call for the Levites to come out of the legacy in condition so that's one point I want to say about the subject of Babylon the other point is this when God's people go into Babylon they're never identified as being Babylon they're identified as being captive in Babylon when Babylonians come into our church they're always identified by their surname by their heritage their possible if you like they never become fully fledged Adventists they don't I'll give you one reference for that Uriah is not called Uriah the proselyting person Uriah the new do you ride the circumcised he's called Uriah the Hittite and his wife Bathsheba she's got blood line that goes all the way back to the line of Davey's family if I put it that way she's a true Jew Uriah risen and he's identified because it's called Uriah the Hittite but he's a Jew he's part of the Hebrew nation is part of the church how every way you want to check his credentials but he's always identified as being some except rrett if we believed you to come into Adventism and now you have a certificate that says you're an adventist you destroy the prophetic understanding of either movin Amman because now you're saying that God has no ability when they come in to identify who the 144,000 are and now you're attacking the subject 144,000 the subject of Babylon because when Edom Moab and Ammon come in are they still either movin Ammon when they come into the church I'm saying yes they are they're not true-blue Advent is because if they were then they can be part of the hundred forty-four thousand because they come in before the harvesting of the hundred forty-four thousand we know that because I've rubbed it out but 144,000 are gonna come in here they see where they're harvested and the world's either moment Amman coming before that and if you can't track the bear either moment Amanda they're not Adventists then you lose the ability to distinguish between them the great multitude and the 144,000 so we know that when they come into our church we still say okay we're Jews and your Gentiles with different and I don't want people are kind of miss gonna miss misinterpreting what I mean by that there's a distinction made when Advent is going to Babylon they never become Babylon they just become captives of Babylon this is dispensational theology if you get a Gentile coming into adventism today which they shouldn't of course because we don't believe in public debates ism but if they got in somehow and they're going to this movement can they be part 144,000 yes but if they wait until this history here Sunday law if they waited for here to come in they can't be a true-blue Adventist they still have to be cool Adventist Moab Adventist Edom just like Uriah the Hittite if you come in here as a Gentile you're fully paid-up member as an Adventist and you qualify to be part 144,000 we thought we've taught this from the very beginning of this idea of priestly verse and ethylene I'm just Cara fiying it and I'm using the argument backwards that we all know if you join the church you can't be part 144,000 if you join at the wrong time you're going to Babylon you can't be part of Babylon you're always going to be God's people who are in captivity to Babylon so this assertion that we teach I teach that the church is Babylon is a blatant lie that's all it is it's a lie it's a force it's a strawman force as a straw man technique and this is built what I'm teaching is built upon two calls to come out of Babylonian captivity that's what I want to say about Babylon so did you address how you teach the lines Trump the Bible and spirit of prophecy so what I'm saying is this when we talk about the lines trumping the Bible and spirit of prophecy I'm saying if you're not on the line you're lost every Adventist is under law under sin they're in a lost condition because that's what made us here is all of us are later seeing by birth by spiritual birth unless you make this point clear most people would accept that truth to say oh yeah we're all a Desir until you start telling them what that means it's a death sentence cuz not one later scene will ever enter into heaven when you start explaining what it means to be a latest in the applications of that people will quickly tell you actually maybe I'm not allowed to seeing let's really find what made the seer is so it's all about the application I'm saying every day the seeing is dead you have to come out of that experience and coming to Ephesus and when you come into Ephesus you're now born again so if you're a later seein you don't even understand how to read the Bible correctly and I don't mean on a moral level because anybody can read the Bible on the moral level you could get an atheist who could read the Bible on a moral level they can understand what it's teaching about right and wrong don't kill don't steal but it only comes to a prophetic level that's what we're talking about spiritual things are spiritually discerned they can't understand prophecy the only people who can understand prophecy your people who I'm gonna say are born again people who have been dressed in robes of righteousness so if you get people who are not converted trying to understand prophecy they're always going to come up with mistakes and get things wrong so what you need to do is get on to a line so when we talk about the lines trumping the Bible of spirit of prophecy I'm saying it's not just this theological or theoretical line that we're talking about some line on the board I'm talking about real life the line is this movement the line is the events that we've gone through since 1989 1989 90 to 96 9/11 2012 2014 2008 all of these way marks is what I mean by the lines what they teach us is where and how to place Bible passages in the correct place I gave an example of that Zechariah 2 6 it says ho ho-ho-ho is a reference to the second angel we've done this for a long time when people say you the lines Trump the Bible I'm saying where to place that verse in endtime prophecy how do you know how to place it because you take your symbology a doubling connecting that to the second angel then you have to know where you place the second angel and you place the second angel based upon Miller right history primarily we go to August 11th 1840 then we go to April the 19th 1844 we combine them at 9/11 one of them was the empowerment of the first one of them was the arrival of the second and we see that 9/11 is where you mark the second angel so you can get that verse and hook it on to 9/11 that's what people are saying the lines Trump the Bible but this is what we've done from the very inception in fact if we don't do that we don't even have a message because if you don't do that Zachariah 2:12 goes all the way to the us Sunday law Daniel 8:14 goes all the way to the u.s. Sunday long revelation 18 verses 1 to 3 goes all the way to the Sunday law everything gets pushed into the future and you have no ability to prepare so this accusation about the Trump's about the lines trumping inspiration is put the truth and making it look like it's something evil and dirty when it's the truth that this whole movement is based upon did you take symbols in Bible verses and you decide where to place them and it's all predicated upon the correct understanding of millerite history and then the play millerite history into our own history where you get 1989 1990 to 1996 and 9/11 one more example Deuteronomy 18 18 it says there's going to be a prophet that's raised up what do you do with that passage because all the other White's going to do with it is take you to christ's history and say that was a representation of christ and if that's all it ever meant that has no implications no application for us today at the end of the world so you can't do anything with that but what we have understood is Deuteronomy 18 18 is symbolizing the year 18 18 and 18 18 is when William Miller has an increase of knowledge so straightaway you make an application that that prophet is a symbol of William Miller the increase of knowledge then you make a further application because 18 18 is an increase of knowledge comes to 1992 which is the line upon line methodology that we use in this movement and then you see who that prophet is and that prophet now becomes the only chef pippen jar now if you want to say that the the lines are trumping the Bible I'm saying you're now deliberately and maliciously misconstruing basic statements and I don't mind if people do that but what they have to do realize is they're not fighting against me they're fighting against themselves because everyone who's making this accusation believed either that truth or similar truths in the past the day would take bible quotes look at a doubling or look at a date or look at some symbol lie guitaring and they place it upon the line they say now we get this verse and we put it here and if you want to call that the lines trumping inspiration you can call it that way but know that you're destroying yourself not me by making those kind of accusations final final thing and this is like the the shallowest one for me o to will worship in anyway your seeked upbringing so this one yeah this one is this one is interesting because what people are now doing and I believe it's based upon studies that I did at the last trimester based upon the nature of man people are rejecting objecting to the models that I have shared about what the nature of a human being looks like what I do want to say on that subject is at the very beginning of that trimester I tried to make the point that I would want to discuss the nature of man not the nature of Christ because I think it's much more fruit a much more fruitful study to look at the nature of a human being because we're all human beings and we understand ourselves far more than we understand the nature of Christ and then the way tells us repeatedly there are things about him that have not been opened up to us that we don't fully understand and I don't claim to understand everything about his nature but human nature is a lot more of a manageable task so that's one point that I want to bring up now what people have done is they've gone back and said well I was brought up a Sikh which is an Eastern religion which has mysticism connected with it and based upon that I'm introducing these I all these philosophies into the message and I would ask can everybody who's accusing me can they please lay the same accusation upon every Catholic that's in this movement today former Catholic yes and they've kept though their Catholic doctrines and now they're muddying the waters as well because Catholic theology is just as much Eastern mysticism is Sikhism is and I'd go more than that I would say if you're an Adventist before you came into this movement I'm gonna and I'm not saying you're not added Adventist now but how do you understand the point who also believe apostate Protestant doctrines which they got from the Catholics which they got from the Hindus or whoever they want to get it get it from all of them should be called to attention on this subject now I wouldn't be so foolish to say the people who oppose me on the nature of man they believe apostate Protestant which are the same views that Hindus have which the same views that Jews have which is the same views that Sikhs have to save you that Catholic we're all in the same mace it's a silly argument the reason why people are picking up on this and by the way the only reason I heard about this is because someone told me because no one ever actually told me that I'm saying this is that I try to make the vision plain upon this table badly and I said essentially this I said here you are inside this shell and they want to say this is Eastern mysticism this concept of you inside your body is Eastern mysticism now I want to ask you a question I can never remember the names but if you take two moose and his mother I can't pronounce it Semiramis and he's dad which was the lion killer I remember his name is the one who gets killed by it anyway I think most people about someone read perhaps remember his name if you recall Nimrod the father dies before the sons born so if you know that and so they make the claim that his mum would never commit adultery because she's a nice woman that Tammuz was a virgin birth now that's not the only story you go on to many stories about Eastern mysticism and they all have one common thread in it that they have a virgin birth and I can't remember if it's Krishna and all these gods that Hindus have but they all have these virgin births you go into any pagan religion and they all have strong Christian theology that runs through them every pagan religion does and the obvious reason for that is because Christianity is just another pagan religion isn't it because that's what atheist teach that's the primary evidence that they have that Christianity is wrong because we're just at the at the last end we just tagged on at the end and we just copied all those pagans now our argument is a philosophical argument then we say no actually the error comes before the truth because God Satan is going to set everyone up so when the truth comes nobody can distinguish between them so all of those false messiah stories were all set up by satan so that when the real Messiah comes no one's going to believe him the good is going to say oh he's just another Messiah so when you take this and say this is Eastern mysticism and this is not Christianity you need to be sure that that's what is really happening so when I read a couple of Bible passages to you on this issue so let's go to Ephesians chapter 3 verse 16 I'm not going to break the verses down and talk about the theology of all this I'm just going to pick up some key words and it'll be obvious when we see this vision 3:16 remember who's writing this Paul and Paul is a symbol of this movement Paul is going to one of his things he's going to develop is this issue about what a man looks like that he would grant you according to the riches of his glory to be strengthened with might by his spirit in the inner man so already in this verse you can see he's using the inner man and inner means inside so I'm saying the inner man is this man here it's inside you we'll go to Roman's 722 I know we were in Ephesians pain Ephesians Ephesians 4:24 next chapter Ephesians 4:24 and that ye might put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness so you tell me what I'm saying this rhetorically who people who asked that question how can you put on a new man what doesn't even that mean does that mean you're gonna get new fingers new arm someone's gonna chop your own off and you're going to get a new arm we know it doesn't mean that this new man that's been spoken of is what man has to be some ik internal some heart conversion experience I'm going to say the inner man romans 7 22 Roma 7:22 for I delight in the law of God after the inward man in a man inward man Paul has this philosophy this theology that talks about an inner man if you talk about an inner man you must have you must be able to see these good he's going to end up talking about an outer man if he's talking about an inner man so we've gone through Ephesians three features four Romans seven we go to first Peter now because Paul's not the only person is going to do this Peter will do this first Peter chapter three verse four he's going to tell you what their inner man is he won't call it the inner man but let it be the hidden man now it's hidden there's something you can't see it's called the hidden man of the heart in that which is not corruptible even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit which is in the sight of God a great price now when I did these studies about you I know I needed a picture like this I also did a picture that there was a throne did the picture of a throne where you sit and I said that throne is in the heart here and what's being portrayed here do you in the heart that you in this body is what we just read from Paul and what Peter says here he says the hidden man of the heart there's a man in the heart or the man of the heart what is that talking about we could go again back to Romans 7 the first few passages it talks about a woman first diversities being married to someone when the man dies the woman can marry Christ all Sambhaji who is dying is your husband who is the man because you're a woman so I'm saying who's this man that's just been killed your ex-husband it's this man that was the heart because Jesus is going to come and live in that heart when he marries you this symbology about this inner man is replete in the Bible go to one more which ties East thoughts together 2nd Corinthians 4:16 we read 1st Peter 3 for just a moment ago and I will read in 2nd Corinthians 4:16 he's going to bring them together he's going to tell you that your composed of two men for which cause we faint not but though our outward man perish yet the inward man is renewed day by day he says the outward man if you look at us you can see we're getting old because the outward man begins to perish like a flower that phase but if you ask any person you know when they hit 40 50 60 even 70 ask them how they think young people can't believe this but a 60 70 year old man they think the same way as an eighteen year old they had the same thought processes they just trapped in a body that won't function like their mind functions so they could imagine about jumping and running and doing all the things they used to do but their body doesn't work that's what Paul is saying here he says the outer man is perishing it in old but the inner man is renewed day by day and you can I've expressed that in one in two ways because it's sanctification that he's referring to here sanctification is continual justification like there's no improvement it remains static you are new every day but sanctification is also a growth process so the inner man is righteous continually or I should say and he's growing from grace to grace inside and what's happening to the outside he's going from bad to worse Paul Theology when he talks about the individual is based upon the inner man and the outer man if you want to go on to Z Chi store any of these anti-religion videos or websites and they'll show you Eastern mysticism looks like it looks almost the same as Christianity if you want to portray Christianity in that light the track of error lies close to the track of truth error is like a parasite it sticks to the tree and tries to SAP the life out of it if you think that this is a symbol of Eastern mysticism or my Sikh background not only someone might say you're scraping the barrel like that's crazy but you need to get your theology straight because go to the New Testament and we didn't even begin to read the Spirit prophesy quotes to attach to these passages I'm saying clearly that this imagery here where you have got you in this house is straight New Testament theology it's not Eastern mysticism and to make it appear so is wickedness in the highest sense to try and not argue against me but arguably it's what the Bible teaches I never went any further than drawing pictures of you inside this shell and Allan White says this is the house in which you live this argument gets so close to the argument that Ellen White says where she says the eye of God is on you and people use that to say she's using Masonic language because she must have been a Mason because she's some wicked person you go to anti Ellen White websites this was one of the common arguments that they had that some of the phraseology she uses is Masonic language and any mature seventh-day adventists we've initially this movement would throw that out except people who want to scrape the barrel and wonder attack not God's messenger but they want to attack God because you can't attack the messenger jesus says both to Samuel and all to the other people his disciples they're not attacking you they're attacking me me being Christ so you know by it's attacking me that I'm using the eastern mysticism to lead people astray when I'm using New Testament theology is the same accusation when Ellen White says the eye of God and it's a Masonic phrase it's the same argument it's a really poor argument that's my response to Eastern mysticism and I didn't get a chance to talk about real worship but it's connected to this whole subject about the inner man and the outer man and the reference to the will Heavenly Father it's a sad day in the history of this movement but it's also my hope and prayer that this would be a glorious day that's having me given an opportunity to explain some of these misconceptions these ideas that have been misunderstood could be cleared up thank you for the great privilege Lord of being able to testify of my faith and my belief and my confidence in your leading Lord as my brothers and sisters hear these questions and hear the responses to them it's my hope and I think the hope of the people who organized this meeting that they would be a means of encouraging your people help us to continue to honor you and to glorify you Lord as people are stepping off the platform to examine the integrity of what we teach is my hope that this short study would be the means of helping them to come back on the platform and to have confidence that you are leading your people we pray these things in Jesus's name I mean